Elementary school question, don't understand something

So I’m following the babypips school and reached Grade 1 elementary school.
But I have a question. The tutorial is explaining how to play a bounce or a break while trading support or resistance levels. But in both the bounce and the break case I have no idea what the stop loss orders are for in that particular example.

For example at playing the bounce when going long:

A little above the resistance line there is a stop loss order. Why is that? What is the stop loss order doing?
Cause in this particular situation you have bought a currency pair and are waiting for an opportune moment to sell right? So basically the higher it gets the better it is. So my question really is : Why would you place a stop loss order there? I don’t understand it with the going short variation either. There is a stop loss a little below the support line, but the lower it goes the better it is to buy back in right?

I don’t get it with breaks either. Perhaps someone could explain to me?
It would be most appreciated.

Cheers,
Nexigen.


Stop losses are usually placed at levels wherein the trade idea is invalidated. So in the photo you posted, if you’re looking for a chance to go long or buy on the support area, you could set an entry order right on the support or a little above it to get confirmation from the upward momentum. You set the stop loss below the support area since a break below that level would invalidate your trade idea.

If you’re looking to short or sell on the break of support, your entry order could be placed below the support level to catch the downside momentum. If you’re able to enter there, you should set your stop back above the support level since a move back to that area would suggest that the breakout was a false one.

Hope this helps!

The image (from THIS PAGE in the School), which you posted above, depicts [B]a retracement in a bullish trend — NOT an opportunity to go SHORT.[/B]

As price retraces, it approaches a support level. What will happen when it reaches that level?

There are many possibilities. Here are 3 of them:

• price could blow right through that support level and keep going south, violating that support,
and potentially beginning a new down-trend

• price could stall at, or around, that support level, and lose momentum for some period of time

• price could bounce off that support level, and resume its upward trend

The School lesson is illustrating how you might choose to trade, [B]if you anticipate a bounce.[/B] In this case, you expect the support level to hold. You expect the (downward) retracement to end at the support level, and you expect the overall (upward) trend to resume.

If this occurs, as you expect, then you want to enter a LONG position immediately after the bounce off support. But, you might not want to sit glued to your screen, waiting to see the bounce happen. So, before the expected bounce occurs, you place a BUY order to enter LONG above the support level. If price bounces off support, and heads higher, then you’re in your desired trade at the price you have selected (whether you were at your screen at the time, or not).

But, what if you’re wrong? What if price bounces off support, triggering your entry order, and then reverses and plunges down through the support level it just bounced off of?

In case you’re wrong, and price turns down again, after bouncing off the support level (one or more times), you want to get out quickly, cutting your loss. So, you place a SELL order (a stop-loss order) below the support level to get you out of the LONG position you just entered.

If you understand how this description explains the image that you posted, then you should be able to answer the other questions you asked in your post.

If you’re still confused, come back with additional questions, and we’ll try to sort them out.

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Stick with the school, the more you study the more you will understand.
You’ve done the right thing posting your query here. You can always come back to the answers later when your studies are advancing.
Good luck

Thank you PipDaddy, and a big thank you Clint. That explanation was really clear and it helped me see why these stop loss orders are there. I never thought of the fact that the stop loss order might be there as a safeguard to cut losses for when your buy order already got triggered but the price decided to go back down right after. I had in mind that we were still looking for a good moment to buy back in, which made me confused about the stop-loss order. But playing the bounce will never interfere with the stop loss order anyway because it’s below the actual bounce.

This brings me to a second question. I would really appreciate it if you could explain it in a similar fashion. I have trouble understanding the whole ‘playing the break’ strategy. How should I see this? Within the situation, are we trying to buy or trying to sell? The conservative approach of playing the break I vaguely understand. But I have absolutely no idea what’s happening at the aggressive way of playing the break.

I want to thank you for the feedback already given. And want to thank you even more in advance.
I already really appreciate someone took the time to write a complete in-depth course about FX trading, for free. I’m even more glad that there are people willing to help you giving you extra guidance throughout the course.

Greetings,
Nexigen.

Here are the illustrations shown in this portion of the School lesson:

Illustration 1 (representing the “Aggressive Way” of trading a break)

Illustration 2 (representing the “Conservative Way” of trading a break)

In each illustration, price is initially moving [I]down,[/I] and it is approaching a barrier. The barrier in this case is a [I]support[/I] level, because it is below the current price.

If price is moving down, as it is in the illustrations above, and if you believe that it will fail to break through the support level it is approaching, then you might consider [I]trading the bounce,[/I] as we discussed previously. Clearly, a bounce would be [I]upward,[/I] back in the direction price came from, and you would be considering taking a LONG position [I]after the bounce.[/I]

On the other hand, if you believe that the support level will fail to stop the downward-moving price, then you are expecting a continued down-move. In this case, you might consider [I]trading the break[/I] of the support level, by taking a SHORT position [I]after the break.[/I]

Two more illustrations could have been given in this lesson, representing a [I]rising[/I] price which is approaching an overhead barrier. Such a barrier would be called a [I]resistance[/I] level, because it would be above the current price. If price is rising, and you expect the resistance level to hold, then you might consider a SHORT position, [I]after[/I] price has failed to break above resistance. But, if you expect price to break through the resistance and keep moving upward, then you might consider a LONG position, [I]after the break.[/I]

Well, that’s surprising, because the so-called “aggressive” way is simpler than the so-called “conservative” way. Let’s run through both.

• In the “aggressive way” (illustration 1), price is moving down toward a support level. Maybe you expect price to break through support, or maybe you have no clue.

If you expect the break, you might place a SELL order at a prudent distance below the support level, in order to enter SHORT after the break.

On the other hand, if you have no opinion about what might happen when price encounters the support level, you might just sit and watch. Then, when you see price break the support level, and move significantly below it, you might choose to place a [I]market[/I] SELL order to go SHORT.

Clearly, in the opposite scenario (not illustrated in the lesson), in which price is rising toward a resistance level, you would be looking for a LONG trade in the direction of the continuing up-move.

• In the “conservative way” (illustration 2) — again, looking at a downward moving price which is approaching a support level — you are not confident that price will blast right through the support level, and continue downward, never looking back. Instead, you suspect that, after price breaks the support level, a cluster of buy-stop orders resting just below the support level will drive price back (upward) toward the broken support level, which now is expected to be a resistance level. This is the part of the price move labeled “pullback” in illustration 2.

So, you don’t “aggressively” SELL the break on the initial penetration of the support level. Instead, you wait to see price retreat to the broken support level, and you wait to see whether that level — which is [I]now resistance[/I] — will stop price from continuing higher. If it does, you enter a SELL order to go SHORT, anticipating a continuation of the original down-move.

As in the example of the “aggressive way”, there is clearly an opposite scenario, in which price is initially moving upward toward a resistance level. In this scenario, you would trade the break by going LONG at an appropriate level above the broken resistance level.

I hope that clears things up for you.

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Again, thank you Clint. This clarified a lot for me.

I think that I now know what is causing these errors for me while attending the course.
Before I came here I was active in the Bitcoin scene including all of its altcoins. I’m not exactly sure how to call this form of trading but I think it’s called derivatives trading, or maybe stock trading. Basically I buy something that I can hold for as long as I want and sell whenever I want. Sorry for my poor explanation on the matter. Trading it went pretty well and I made some money out of it. But as you might or might not know, the bitcoin price and its volume is very low at the moment so I stopped.

I think this is an entirely different way of trading than the FX market which I desire to trade at now. Whenever the price within a visual example at this course on babypips was reaching a resistance or support line, I had in mind that I still holded bitcoin or that I wanted to buy in bitcoin. To put this in a more direct example: I sold my bitcoin and I’m now looking for a good place to buy back in. The price is moving towards a support line. Now lets assume that I’m thinking the price will follow the conservative break. In my wrong thoughts, I’m just hoping for the price to go as low as possible before buying in. So whether it is the aggressive or the conservative way that is happening, I would be waiting for a bounce nevertheless. Even if it goes down for weeks first. This is what I would think if I were actually holding a currency. This is also what made me confused about the stop-loss order. I think option trading does not actually let you hold on to anything since it is a position.

Now my question comes (because I’m not sure) : Is derivatives trading (bitcoin in my case) completely different from option trading / forex trading? Because I’m really starting to think this is the reason why I came up with these learning issues in the first place. I have never done anything like option trading before. (I will start to demo once I advanced in the course). Buying in long and short positions at option trading, that is the only way that works while reading this course right? Could this be the reason why I failed to comprehend?

I hope I made myself clear enough to express my issue.

Greetings,
Nexigen

Let’s remove Bitcoin, options, and the word “derivatives” from this conversation.

Let’s just talk about forex, and let’s start by talking about what forex trading [I][B]is not.[/B][/I]

In forex trading —

• You do [I]not[/I] invest in anything

• You do [I]not[/I] acquire or own any currency, currency pair, or other asset

• You do [I]not[/I] actually “buy” or “sell” anything (although, for convenience, we all use those terms)

• You do [I]not[/I] borrow money from your broker (or from anyone else) when you trade with leverage

So, what [I][B]is[/B][/I] forex trading?

In forex trading —

• You [I]speculate[/I] on a future price change between two currencies (for example between the euro and the US dollar, when you take a position in EUR/USD). Speculating is very similar to gambling, in that you are betting on the future direction of a price movement. This is not investing. Think of betting on a horse race. When you gamble on a horse race, you are betting on the [I]performance[/I] of the horse — you are [I]not investing[/I] in the horse.

• When you take a LONG position, [I]you are not buying or acquiring anything.[/I] You are simply betting that the BASE currency in a pair will increase in value with respect to the CROSS currency (also called the quote currency) in the pair. When you take a SHORT position, [I]you are not disposing of something you own.[/I] You are simply betting that the BASE currency in a pair will decline in value with respect to the CROSS currency in the pair.

• For convenience, let’s use the terms “buy” and “sell”. In forex trading, you can “buy” to enter a LONG position; and you can “buy” to exit a SHORT position. Similarly, you can “sell” to enter a SHORT position; and you can “sell” to exit a LONG position.

It’s possible that you are confused by the concept of short-selling. If this is the case, you will have to clear up that confusion, before you can understand the topics we have been discussing in this thread (trading bounces, and trading breaks).

I suggest that you re-read the School lesson on trading bounces and trading breaks, and re-read this thread. When you encounter the words “buying” or “selling”, make sure that you know which of the 4 possibilities is being referenced: buying to enter a LONG position, or buying to exit a SHORT position; selling to enter a SHORT position, or selling to exit a LONG position.

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So basically when it comes to forex trading, you are able to change up your buy position to a sell position?
Will that come with any profit loss or can you freely do that? I’m considering making a demo account already, just to see how things go. Cause right now, it’s like learning all there is to know about cars, but never seen one in my life nor drove in one before.

I want to thank you for your time Clint. You helped me more than you might assume!

I’m not sure I understand those two questions. But, it seems to me that you are still confused.

[B]Let’s say that you do the following steps, in the order listed —[/B]

  1. Initially, you have no position in the forex market.

  2. You place an order to buy 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. You now have a position. You are LONG the EUR/USD pair. If the EUR gains in value with respect to the USD, you will earn a profit. If the EUR declines in value with respect to the USD, you will suffer a loss.

  3. You place an order to sell 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. This closes the LONG position you had previously in EUR/USD. Your profit (or loss) from that previous position is now reflected in your account balance. You now have no position in the forex market.

  4. Next, you place an order to sell 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD, again. You now have a new position. You are SHORT 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. If the value of the EUR rises with respect to the USD, you will now LOSE money. But, if the value of the EUR declines with respect to the USD, you will EARN a profit.

  5. Now, suppose that you place another order to sell 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. You are now SHORT 2 mini-lots, and your profits (or losses) will accumulate twice as fast as before.

  6. Then, you decide to place an order to buy 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. This closes one-half of your SHORT position, and you are now, once again, SHORT 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD.

  7. Next, you place an order to buy 1 mini-lot of USD/JPY. You are now SHORT 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD, and LONG 1 mini-lot of USD/JPY.

  8. You place an order to buy 2 mini-lots of EUR/USD. This order closes your previous 1 mini-lot SHORT position in EUR/USD, and opens a new 1 mini-lot LONG position in EUR/USD. You are now LONG 1 mini-lot each of EUR/USD and USD/JPY.

  9. Now, you place an order to sell 1 mini-lot of EUR/USD. You now have no position in EUR/USD. You are still LONG 1 mini-lot of USD/JPY.

  10. Finally, you place an order to sell 1 mini-lot of USD/JPY. This closes your last remaining position, and you now have no position in the forex market.

[B]You should be able to determine the following, for yourself —[/B]

Steps 2 and 7 are examples of [I]buying to enter a LONG position[/I]

Step 6 is an example of [I]buying to exit a SHORT position[/I]

Steps 4 and 5 are examples of [I]selling to enter a SHORT position[/I]

Steps 3, 9, and 10 are examples of [I]selling to exit a LONG position[/I]

Step 8 is an example of BOTH [I]buying to exit a SHORT position[/I] AND [I]buying to enter a LONG position[/I]

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Thank you Clint. I’m sorry I did not respond to your last message in time. I had a break for a couple of months from studying the forex market due to some personal problems. I re-read your post and went through all lessons in the school up to the lesson I initially started this thread for. I also re read this thread.

I now have a better grasp of how “buying” and “selling” works within forex. You never buy or sell anything, you just bet on the performance of a valuta. Which is either down or up. However, now that I re-read it, there was something I still did not understand. The blue marked text indicates my error :


A cluster of buy-stop orders? What is that exactly? I will elaborate my error:

You are explaining the conservative way. So we’re looking at a downward moving price. We’re not convinced the price will blast through the support level (thus going down aggressively). In stead, we think right below the support level are a cluster of buy-stop orders that will drive the price back upwards.

So that means these buy-stop orders will trigger a buy order causing the price to go up?
But why would there be a buy order right below the support level?
What I would imagine is that people who initially thought the course would bounce off of the support level but were wrong (cause it went through the support level instead), had a stop-loss order ready below the support level triggering a lot of sell orders causing the price to go down even farther.

Could you explain what a buy-stop order is and why it is there in this example?

Thanks in Advance,
Nexigen.

2015-11-15_2240 - Hogarste’s library Not trying to confuse you, but understanding this has made all of the difference to me.