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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Newbie
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24
Default Arguments and deceptions

I haven't posted much in the forum, so many of the regular forum readers may not know me (although some know me from my time in the Babypips chatroom). Even though I don't post much, though, I enjoy reading through forum threads periodically to see what interesting and new ideas are being discussed. Of late, I notice that there seems to be an increase in the amount of arguing and mudslinging going on (perhaps some of it justified, and perhaps some of it not), and I'm sure most can probably guess what topics and threads this pertains to. My opinions and ideas are not necessarily any better than others, but I feel compelled to make a few points for what it's worth because I am quite interested in seeing new traders learn to succeed. New traders, in particular, often ask a variety of questions related to these points when they visit the chatroom. So here goes......

There is no perfect system that will guarantee that all your trades will be profitable. They cannot even guarantee that the majority of your trades will be profitable. The same can be said for trade signals and for indicators, whether established and publicly available or self-developed and privately or commercially provided by an individual or company.

There are many people who want to sell you systems, trade signals/alerts, and/or indicators. You have a simple choice to make regarding those: you either pay for them and use them .... or you don't. (More on this in my final paragraph in this posting.)

There are many experienced, successful, established traders who will agressively attempt to warn new traders of the dangers of those who wish to sell the aforementioned items. There is good reason for that, specifically that new traders in particular are taken in again and again by hucksters who promise a pot of gold if you simply trust their product. In addition, there are those who are not quite "above board", who offer a variety of free products but who hold out some of their most "important" strategies, etc., until remuneration in some form or fashion is received. Established traders generally feel protective of new traders and wish for their success as well. So for those who hawk products, who don't quite tell the whole story, or who are reluctant to post real-time trades, etc., you should expect to feel a backlash from the population of experienced traders who do not wish to see new traders taken advantage of.

Many experienced and successful traders will tell any new trader these things:

There's a lot of FREE info and help available on the web. Use it.
You're better off learning to trade rather than paying someone else.
Just because an indicator says the price will move up, doesn't mean it will.
Judgement and instinct are important aspects of successful trading.
Time and practice and patience are necessary to be a success.
No single person has all the answers.
There is NO holy grail of trading systems or indicators.

Now, back to something I said earlier. You have a choice to buy a product or service. Maybe it will help you succeed; maybe it won't. You have to decide whether or not it's worth applying your financial resources to it. However, consider this: there are many people who are successful and happy to help you develop your trading skills free of charge. Many are on this forum and have spent considerable time and effort to help educate traders on a variety of techniques that they have found successful. And there are mentors who mentor simply out of their desire for others to succeed. Why do they ask for nothing in return? Because they are successful already. I see many people who claim to be fantastic traders who instead of trading seem have turned their efforts into marketing and selling systems, alerts, and indicators. I know many successful traders who simply scoff at that because they themselves wouldn't bother marketing and selling -- they are already successfully trading and can make more than they need. For them, stepping out of trading to instead market and sell would be a career move that might actually drop their level of income. I'm not trying to say here that everyone who markets a product is simply a trader who can't trade .... but I am saying that the general consensus among the successful traders that I know is that most of those individuals can't actually trade their own systems, alerts, and indicators profitably in live (as opposed to demo) trading and instead turn to marketing and selling those products. So if you're one who is trying to sell something to traders that you believe will work but you won't post real trades, you won't answer valid criticisms and questions, or have wild claims of success that you can't back up in real time (which is the only way to prove them), etc., then you have to expect a backlash from those who are concerned about the success of other traders that are still trying to find their foothold in this business. And if you're one who is buying a product or a service, then do so with your eyes open and with your mind working logically and pragmatically.

Let me just say as a epilogue to this rather lengthy post ..... kudos to those on this forum who I see have expended considerable time and energy to impart their own experience and ideas so that others can develop their own skills.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:32 PM
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 264
Default

Well written
I dont agree with:


Judgement and instinct are important aspects of successful trading.

This leads to trading with emotion and trying to predict the market rather than let the market tell you what it is doing.

Last edited by pablopluto; 08-24-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:40 PM
Superior Master Contributor and Member
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 932
Default Very important message for new traders .. beautifully stated.

Oh man, I hope all the newbies past present & future in BP will read your post below, ravel96, and especially the paragraph below. Very well stated. I just added to your rep, hope others will too

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravel96 View Post
Now, back to something I said earlier. You have a choice to buy a product or service. Maybe it will help you succeed; maybe it won't. You have to decide whether or not it's worth applying your financial resources to it. However, consider this: there are many people who are successful and happy to help you develop your trading skills free of charge. Many are on this forum and have spent considerable time and effort to help educate traders on a variety of techniques that they have found successful. And there are mentors who mentor simply out of their desire for others to succeed. Why do they ask for nothing in return? Because they are successful already. I see many people who claim to be fantastic traders who instead of trading seem have turned their efforts into marketing and selling systems, alerts, and indicators. I know many successful traders who simply scoff at that because they themselves wouldn't bother marketing and selling -- they are already successfully trading and can make more than they need. For them, stepping out of trading to instead market and sell would be a career move that might actually drop their level of income. I'm not trying to say here that everyone who markets a product is simply a trader who can't trade .... but I am saying that the general consensus among the successful traders that I know is that most of those individuals can't actually trade their own systems, alerts, and indicators profitably in live (as opposed to demo) trading and instead turn to marketing and selling those products. So if you're one who is trying to sell something to traders that you believe will work but you won't post real trades, you won't answer valid criticisms and questions, or have wild claims of success that you can't back up in real time (which is the only way to prove them), etc., then you have to expect a backlash from those who are concerned about the success of other traders that are still trying to find their foothold in this business. And if you're one who is buying a product or a service, then do so with your eyes open and with your mind working logically and pragmatically.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 05:22 PM
johnnykanoo's Avatar
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 435
Send a message via AIM to johnnykanoo Send a message via Yahoo to johnnykanoo Send a message via Skype™ to johnnykanoo
Default

Quote:
kudos to those on this forum who I see have expended considerable time and energy to impart their own experience and ideas so that others can develop their own skills.
thank you

I hope in the future there will be more posters who articulate as well and convey there thoughts. Peoples opinions are always valid and if they can be presented in a way that is productive and respectful that is how we all can benefit. When people become insulting, demeaning or disrespectful then other people stop taking them seriously and even if they have something serious to share it is hard to get past the insulting nature of their past posts.

Im glad you wrote this and I hope many will benefit from your wisdom
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 06:16 PM
Banned
FX-Men Honorary Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,029
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravel96 View Post
I haven't posted much in the forum, so many of the regular forum readers may not know me (although some know me from my time in the Babypips chatroom). Even though I don't post much, though, I enjoy reading through forum threads periodically to see what interesting and new ideas are being discussed. Of late, I notice that there seems to be an increase in the amount of arguing and mudslinging going on (perhaps some of it justified, and perhaps some of it not), and I'm sure most can probably guess what topics and threads this pertains to. My opinions and ideas are not necessarily any better than others, but I feel compelled to make a few points for what it's worth because I am quite interested in seeing new traders learn to succeed. New traders, in particular, often ask a variety of questions related to these points when they visit the chatroom. So here goes......

There is no perfect system that will guarantee that all your trades will be profitable. They cannot even guarantee that the majority of your trades will be profitable. The same can be said for trade signals and for indicators, whether established and publicly available or self-developed and privately or commercially provided by an individual or company.

There are many people who want to sell you systems, trade signals/alerts, and/or indicators. You have a simple choice to make regarding those: you either pay for them and use them .... or you don't. (More on this in my final paragraph in this posting.)

There are many experienced, successful, established traders who will agressively attempt to warn new traders of the dangers of those who wish to sell the aforementioned items. There is good reason for that, specifically that new traders in particular are taken in again and again by hucksters who promise a pot of gold if you simply trust their product. In addition, there are those who are not quite "above board", who offer a variety of free products but who hold out some of their most "important" strategies, etc., until remuneration in some form or fashion is received. Established traders generally feel protective of new traders and wish for their success as well. So for those who hawk products, who don't quite tell the whole story, or who are reluctant to post real-time trades, etc., you should expect to feel a backlash from the population of experienced traders who do not wish to see new traders taken advantage of.

Many experienced and successful traders will tell any new trader these things:

There's a lot of FREE info and help available on the web. Use it.
You're better off learning to trade rather than paying someone else.
Just because an indicator says the price will move up, doesn't mean it will.
Judgement and instinct are important aspects of successful trading.
Time and practice and patience are necessary to be a success.
No single person has all the answers.
There is NO holy grail of trading systems or indicators.

Now, back to something I said earlier. You have a choice to buy a product or service. Maybe it will help you succeed; maybe it won't. You have to decide whether or not it's worth applying your financial resources to it. However, consider this: there are many people who are successful and happy to help you develop your trading skills free of charge. Many are on this forum and have spent considerable time and effort to help educate traders on a variety of techniques that they have found successful. And there are mentors who mentor simply out of their desire for others to succeed. Why do they ask for nothing in return? Because they are successful already. I see many people who claim to be fantastic traders who instead of trading seem have turned their efforts into marketing and selling systems, alerts, and indicators. I know many successful traders who simply scoff at that because they themselves wouldn't bother marketing and selling -- they are already successfully trading and can make more than they need. For them, stepping out of trading to instead market and sell would be a career move that might actually drop their level of income. I'm not trying to say here that everyone who markets a product is simply a trader who can't trade .... but I am saying that the general consensus among the successful traders that I know is that most of those individuals can't actually trade their own systems, alerts, and indicators profitably in live (as opposed to demo) trading and instead turn to marketing and selling those products. So if you're one who is trying to sell something to traders that you believe will work but you won't post real trades, you won't answer valid criticisms and questions, or have wild claims of success that you can't back up in real time (which is the only way to prove them), etc., then you have to expect a backlash from those who are concerned about the success of other traders that are still trying to find their foothold in this business. And if you're one who is buying a product or a service, then do so with your eyes open and with your mind working logically and pragmatically.

Let me just say as a epilogue to this rather lengthy post ..... kudos to those on this forum who I see have expended considerable time and energy to impart their own experience and ideas so that others can develop their own skills.



What makes you ASSUME that traders are being taken advantage of?

I have posted hundreds of FREE indicators in many public forums. People can download those indicators for FREE without me even knowing they did so. Some people appreciate my efforts and send me donations. As a thank you to them, I send them more indicators that I have NOT posted on the internet.

No one has ever been forced to send me a donation. They do so because they want to. I don't have to send them anything in return, but I do just to say THANK YOU.

Not one person who has sent me a donation has ever complained. What's there to complain about? They send me $50 or $100 and received over 100 more indicators. I don't think they feel taken advantage of!

In my email today:

Quote:
Hey Avery: I just got home and I also made 20 pips . I bought the usa/jpy @ 109.95 and sold it at 110.15 using your new TRO_SR_RR indicator. This indicator is your best one yet. It is very easy to understand and it tells you when to trade, I love it.
Thank you very much
Rodger
Quote:
Hi Avery -

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one increasing pips with this! This one is sweet & makes it very clear...thank you!

- Nathan
Do they sound like they feel taken advantage of?

It is just the nature of some people to stick their nose in other's business under the guise of "protecting". What is really going on is ELITISM. Thinking that you know what is best for someone other than yourself. CONGRESS does it all the time by passes laws to protect you while at the same time the laws don't apply to them because they exempt themselves from the law.

P.S. The reason I posted the chart was so you can see the entry/exit was real.

Last edited by TheRumpledOne; 08-25-2008 at 06:19 PM.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:57 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24
Default

I stand by my words.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 10:04 PM
Newbie
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Cullman, AL
Posts: 30
Default I stand with Ravel

As one who probably knows Ravel better than most, and I can say this as he does not post often but is in the chat room almost every night for the Asian session - he is certainly in my mind one of the most successful traders here. Well over a year ago I met him in the chat room and we both trade frequently. After 15 months or so, pretty much only he and I remain. We have seen hundreds come through the room, stay for a few days, maybe weeks, maybe a month or two - but in the end there is always just the two of us left. Which brings up an interesting point - Why?

Some are not willing to put in the effort. Some blow up their accounts. But most are always looking for the easy system where they can put it on auto pilot and kick back and make money day in and day out. It is an alluring possibility. Find the magic bullet and make money.... sounds good - but there is none. Markets change - things change.

For me, I adjust - like water flowing down. My strategy takes the form of the land and moves with power. You can't learn to do this with a rigid system. You have ideas, you have some thumb rules, but you always have to search for patterns, ideas, momentum, trends that change, trends that don't, how markets react post news, how the market is positioned and on and on. You come away each day a little smarter than the day before. You have to be open to ideas but still let price decide. It is an interesting conundrum! Good trading is opposite of the normal response of life. In baseball, you hit a good pitch but pop it up - you adjust. There is an instant feed back. In trading it is not that way. Some of your best trades will be when you lose money and then jump to the other side of the trade. Some of the best trades are when a pattern fails to do what it is supposed to do. How do you know what it is supposed to do? You don't, but you learn a little more every day. No one is to blame for your gains or losses.

I have heard people watch someone play the piano and remark "I would give anything to play like that." The simple fact is that you would not. You are willing to give anything, except the one thing that you need to give - Time and effort. Trading is very similar.

If you end up in the trading room at night, we would be happy to have you. If you stay there for a period of time - watching live trades - discussing ideas - laughing together, whining together, or just crying after a huge loss - it only makes you better. If after a year, your still hanging around I can almost guarantee you will be a far different and a far better trader than you are today.

There is no magic secret - There is only hard work and terrible lessons in front of you. But expect it, embrace it, and be rewarded.

I stand with Ravel.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2008, 02:37 PM
Senior Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Newport Coast, California
Posts: 144
Default

People stand with Ravel? Why?
My question is simple.

Why the hell are some of you doing
forex trading with such bizarre
attitudes? Put your money in
ING Direct savings account instead.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2008, 03:25 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 320
Default

Very good post! Like it's been said before, some folks jump in thinking forex is an easy street to making a good living, and from the outside it might seem that way. This can create an oppourtunity for those more experienced and those able to create indicators to rake in some money. Thats capitalism I guess. Forex marketing is a huge business right now and people are constantly falling prey and paying money for systems that are based on fundementals, and failing because they haven't invested in learning. But if one hangs around long enough and really tries to learn how the market acts, it becomes apparent that you have much to understand before you will do well, no matter the system you use. In time you can be more successful than if you payed for a system. You can't use a system unless you understand how it works, how the indicators are calculated and what those indicators are telling you. Currency trading is very hands on no matter how much time you actually spend in front of your computer watching charts. If your going to make living from forex, then you need to invest the time to become good at it. Your not going to go to work every day and pay someone else to do your job.

I'm excluding TRO from my generalization of capitalistic folks, since I feel his indicator screen shots are more valuable as a visual learning aids then something I'd need to trade the market.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:22 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edacsac View Post
Very good post! Like it's been said before, some folks jump in thinking forex is an easy street to making a good living, and from the outside it might seem that way. This can create an oppourtunity for those more experienced and those able to create indicators to rake in some money. Thats capitalism I guess. Forex marketing is a huge business right now and people are constantly falling prey and paying money for systems that are based on fundementals, and failing because they haven't invested in learning. But if one hangs around long enough and really tries to learn how the market acts, it becomes apparent that you have much to understand before you will do well, no matter the system you use. In time you can be more successful than if you payed for a system. You can't use a system unless you understand how it works, how the indicators are calculated and what those indicators are telling you. Currency trading is very hands on no matter how much time you actually spend in front of your computer watching charts. If your going to make living from forex, then you need to invest the time to become good at it. Your not going to go to work every day and pay someone else to do your job.

I'm excluding TRO from my generalization of capitalistic folks, since I feel his indicator screen shots are more valuable as a visual learning aids then something I'd need to trade the market.
Compared to some jobs forex might be pretty easy. Ask anyone on that dirty jobs show if they can sit at a computer and trade. I agree dont buy any indicator, charts or systems. Forex is not a easy ticket it takes time like anything. Forex isnt that huge its about 90 pairs max they arent that volitile, stock and futures have thousands of stocks and options. They are more volitile.
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