PA TA nonsense

Hello traders,

I know this might not be such a popular thread among people in here. But I want to explain from where I came from and where I am now.
I started out in here actually a very long time ago. Did a ton of chart patterns, Price action and Technical analysis. after 2 years of reading 1000’s of pages and study, backtesting, forward testing, small accounts.

Anyway, the point I want to make, is that when it comes to trading, you are trading YOUR beliefs about the markets. That belief is set by your emotions when making decisions. Your view of the market is completely different from the guy next to you.

Here is a bold statement, but true. You cannot prove that there is such things as Support and resistance, price action, technical analysis, chart patterns works. Everything you see on the chart only matters in your eyes and beliefs. The markets are random.
Have a look at apophenia on wikipedia…
Markets are random! and the points on the chart that you think is significant is a complete illusion in your head.
There is no proof that any of this stuff works.

What do works is that YOU need to come up with a system that exploits all market movements. it could be a simple break out of a 4h candle? that’s it on ONE pair. and then you get out when it seems like price is going the other way. It does not need to be complicated. Create a system that leaves no analysis for entry and leave all you mental power and capacity to your exit.
You need to ask yourself, what actually makes a trade profit? it’s what happens AFTER your trade is being triggered, not before.

PA and TA however does work for very few people, but it might not be because of their entry, but because of their exit.

Pardon my English and grammar.

Any thoughts?

:slight_smile: you’re not wrong there.
start counting down till you begin receiving howls of derision lol

What you’re probably alluding to is the fact the common & herd influenced view of support & resistance & such like are ambiguous & subjective, which i totally agree with.

So if that’s the case, have you explored alternatives on the technical chart which aren’t ambiguous & subjective that you might be able to make use of on your journey between entry & exit?

Right, so what have you come up with then?

There will be no howls of derision…plenty of commentators, including hedge fund managers, refer to markets as random… Yet there are statistical traders who do use levels and indeed just because something is ‘popular’ it is not per se a dead dog.

Speed bump is an experienced employee on the sell side of the market and it would be good to hear his views …maybe some examples… We may or may not immediately understand but we are here to learn after all.

actually no. your thoughts here are very welcome.

this is the first thought of somebody worth discussing since a few weeks in the forum.

ever since the “random walk theory” this topic is beeing discussed from a to z.

you made a evolution after years of trading and reading stuff. i dont know how you did it. were you reading the random walk or you came up with the “randomness of the price finding” yourself?

i agree to the random walk theory and as speedy said: what are your thoughts about it? what did u come up with?

I think of them as “pretty random” and “more random than many people claim”, but not “[I]totally[/I] random”.

I agree with almost everything else you say. (And indeed, have regularly been making some of your points, here, myself).

I agree, for the most part. This observation also highlights one of the problems of much of the content in many online trading forums, in which there seems to be an almost tacit confusion between “a trading system” and “an entry-method”. The reality, in my view, is that entries are comparatively unimportant in the overall scheme of things, and that risk-management and post-entry trade-management are far more significant to overall profitability.

(On a slightly related point, in so far as it affects trade-management, I also think that trading a single lot can be trading under something of a handicap, as it can deny people the opportunity for any scaling in/out of positions, which is actually quite important to me.)

I wouldn’t call entries “[I]completely[/I] irrelevant”, myself (though I’ve once read a paper which purported to show overall profit from well-managed random entries), but I certainly agree with the main point you’re making here.

Right, so what have you come up with then?

A breakout of any bar you want. Isn’t that what price action does, some kind of formation, and then a breakout? why not take them all? If you go back and look on any chart, what do you see?
You see zig zag movements going from A --> B in a random fashion.
Now, have a little peak at XAUUSD on 4h or even daily candle, if you take every break out on each side of the candle, or simply the breakout of each direction, and focus on the exit, you will get some small winners, and some huge winners by simply following price. SL on the other side of the bar. I’ll encourage you to stay open minded and take 20min to look at this :slight_smile:

I agree, for the most part. This observation also highlights one of the problems of much of the content in many online trading forums, in which there seems to be an almost tacit confusion between “a trading system” and “an entry-method”. The reality, in my view, is that entries are comparatively unimportant in the overall scheme of things, and that risk-management and post-entry trade-management are far more significant to overall profitability

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, we really need to question these things from the very moment we get to trading. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have a introduction lessons for new traders to sort of see what’s TA and PA is all about, but perhaps encourage people to more free thinkers and come up with their own opinions about the market.
More importantly, there should be more focus on your mindset and feelings rather than a doji candle printed on some price line you think is relevant. Your decisions are based on your emotions in trading and life, you might as well get to know yourself a little better :slight_smile: Prefrontal cortex - Wikipedia

in your first post you said exit strategy is more important than entree.

and we should focus on exit more than entree.

whats your exit strategy?

I’m very glad to hear that there are some open minded people out there :slight_smile:

actually no. your thoughts here are very welcome.

this is the first thought of somebody worth discussing since a few weeks in the forum.

ever since the “random walk theory” this topic is beeing discussed from a to z.

you made a evolution after years of trading and reading stuff. i dont know how you did it. were you reading the random walk or you came up with the “randomness of the price finding” yourself?

i agree to the random walk theory and as speedy said: what are your thoughts about it? what did u come up with?

Obviously I had some people to point me in the direction of random markets, but I’m not interested in the theories in fear of going down a rabbit hole you will never get out of. I would actually say that reading technical trading books got me even more confused and blurred my vision of what the market really is. It’s way too complex of a system (the markets) to out smart and find the “secret sauce” that everyone seems to be looking for.
I told myself years back that if I just keep looking at the charts, something magical will happen. After a while I realized because I didn’t find anything, that was the discovery itself. Randomness in it’s purest form.

I beg to disagree with you. Imho, you seem to be confusing issues here. What you see in charts may be different from your beliefs or sentiments. And what you trade from what you see may be based on the values, criteria or setups you are looking out for. The fact that individual traders get different results from looking at the same thing does not mean that what they see are uniquely different; the difference in perception is key, and also what you make of it - i.e. your interpretation. Trade safe.

What gives you the impression i’m not open minded or haven’t come across what you’re observing in far more depth?

What do your probability percentage ratios tell you about the outcome of that tactic when executing alongside a bet sizing grid for instance? because you mention cutting some bets whilst running others.

From your results, i assume you’ve concured which bet sizing grids & permutations are required to determine how, or more importantly when to cash or run these breakout entries to maximise their potential under certain volatility conditions?

Do you even consider volatility conditions relative when engineering a time duration breakout set up? or are you of the opinion that the whole ball game is completely random? & if so how do you determine its significance in relation to your exit criteria?

Would encompassing volatility duration grids improve the profit potential of both your short & longer duration bets? & which time duration bar exerts the minimum impact when the bar breakout fails & trips your stops?

For example, do 2, 4 or 8 hour expiries afford you significantly higher or lower proportional percentage returns when compared to 3, 6 or 12 hour bar breakouts……& how would that affect the way you adopt one particular option over the other, particularly when running it alongside a specific regional currency?

Does Sterling or Yen outperform Euro or Loonie for instance over the same sizing permed breakout grid on a 3 hour bar? or does it offer much more profit potential when sized across a 4 or 8 hour bar?

Do the percentage returns increase or decrease noticeably dependent upon the time duration bar used in your entry-to-exit grid.

Because if you intend to adopt it across the spectrum you’re surely going to need to know how effective it performs under certain conditions so you’re able to either ignore it on one regional currency, yet execute it on another…or do you perhaps think it’s not necessary…if so, why not?

Which timezone duration bar closes are you identifying as more productive & efficient when executing bar breakouts?
Do geographic closes compare more favourably to the recognised interbank close or is the difference negligible?

If so, why do you suppose that is?
Would volume participation during recognised interbank trading on specific regional currencies affect & skew those bar breakout success ratios or not?

Random schmandom
Or perhaps a coin with no head or tail….now there’s a thing! :slight_smile:

Thank you for your thoughts and inputs. What you are saying is that interpretation and your belief are not the same? I’m just asking questions to understand your argument better :slight_smile:

Hi, Grab! Yea, they are not but they belong to the same genre - being normative elements. Your beliefs may influence how you interpret things. But talking about the issue under discussion, the point is that your beliefs and the values and interpretations you put on what you see would be different from mine or any other trader’s - not necessarily that the charts/price action we are seeing are meaningless or different.

What gives you the impression i’m not open minded or haven’t come across what you’re observing in far more depth?

I apologies if I wasn’t more clear in my expression. When I wrote “you” i meant all readers of this thread.

What do your probability percentage ratios tell you about the outcome of that tactic when executing alongside a bet sizing grid for instance? because you mention cutting some bets whilst running others.

I wouldn’t call it a tactic, but rather a methodology you can use. Some prefer a timed take profit, some a fixed and last a more trailing stop under each bar. The quicker you take profit, the higher winrate, but less reward pr trade. The longer you hold the trade, the more reward but a lower win rate. Not matter what you choose, you will always feel bad - Nailing Better Trade Exits - ReThink Group
Personally, my trades are usually a winrate 50%. but I find my weekly results very stable around 70% because the market tends to have at least one move pr. week, Doesn’t always happend, but most of the time… I’m not trying to maximize or complicate the method. If price moves, it gives me plenty of opportunities to profit. I personally don’t look at volatility targets or adjust my stop because last week was low in volatility. Because we do not know what’s gonna happen next.

For example, do 2, 4 or 8 hour expiries afford you significantly higher or lower proportional percentage returns when compared to 3, 6 or 12 hour bar breakouts……& how would that affect the way you adopt one particular option over the other, particularly when running it alongside a specific regional currency?

I haven’t find any particular edge in trading a specific instrument, but rather the importance of figuring out through trial and error what suits you. This comes back to the take profit. I prefer the 4h and 8h charts, and at the moment I trade GBPJPY and Gold. I might change strategy to something else, or if I feel like only trading one of the pairs because I’m busy. We are often told that you are not allowed to trade anything else than your plan, well I think it’s complete rubbish, if you trade the same structure or method, well go ahead.

Do the percentage returns increase or decrease noticeably dependent upon the time duration bar used in your entry-to-exit grid.

This is a really great question. I use to think that my losses on 8h would be 2x than 4h. But the market can only do so much. I use the same fixed position size on 4h as I do on 8h.

Oh that’s another thing, I don’t do risk calculation pr. trade, but rather a basket of trades in a week. Which means that I backtest my method and if I find a 500pips loss in a week as the worse week possible, I then calculate how much I can trade pr. 500pips in loss, and then recalculate when the week is over. Doe

Because if you intend to adopt it across the spectrum you’re surely going to need to know how effective it performs under certain conditions so you’re able to either ignore it on one regional currency, yet execute it on another…or do you perhaps think it’s not necessary…if so, why not?

That is up to the trader. I’m not able to figure out when the market is particular suited for me. I know that when there is no movement, no one makes money. But with a 50% win rate on average, I do get whipsawed in some weeks, at it hurts, but in low volatility periods, my drawdowns are also very low. Risk and reward goes hand in hand. You can get very volatile markets that is very wiggy and scary… really! But in 9/10 weeks with high volatility is profitable. I don’t have the figures, but it’s a gut feeling.

Which timezone duration bar closes are you identifying as more productive & efficient when executing bar breakouts?
Do geographic closes compare more favourably to the recognised interbank close or is the difference negligible?

I haven’t found any edge in particular markets. But if you trade the shorter timeframes, you might want to trade where are some volatility.

I probably missed something in your questions, so please PLEASE let me know if you have more questions.

It most definitely is a tactic & one in which you’re going to need to validate & rigorously test under the conditions I’ve suggested if you intend to return a long-term positive expectancy. If you don’t, you run the risk of slow bleeding your account to death in pretty short order.

How do you know they do?
How many examples of those different options have you researched, tested & validated under live conditions to arrive at that conclusion?

How long is long?
Which time lags have you researched, tested & validated under live conditions to arrive at that conclusion?

How low (or high) in volatility was last week in relation to the comparison periods you’re plotting it under?
By its very definition it’s a volatility influenced tactic. Therefore surely it requires you to measure (in live conditions) the minimum uptake necessary to bring your set up into play at the expense of the risk/cost ratio? Because if you can’t satisfy yourself you’re obtaining value in relation to the risk you’re undertaking, how can you determine your opportunity cost?

You can’t simply wing it, you must have a gauge to signal you in otherwise you’re simply playing it blindfold.

Define “if price moves”?
How far, fast & how soon does it need to move?

What precisely does your bar breakout tactic need to indicate as a minimum in order to differentiate & distinguish a potentially positive expectancy outcome from a coin flip scenario?

Because unless you can identify & filter that critical task every time you prepare to engage you’re not going to be in a position to accurately measure it’s efficiency & effectiveness, particularly when bringing it into play in very specific volatility conditions (which this type of set up thrives under).

Then you’re going to need to find one, because others playing this type of tactic have & that’s why they’ll be in a position to maximise every opportunity that comes their way & more importantly, remain flat when the ideal conditions fail to offer them high probability of positive expectancy.
(That risk/cost ratio again!)

Sorry, but I’m afraid it isn’t.
And again, you’re going to need to know precisely when the market is setting up more favourably for you to engage if you’re intent on maximising your interaction with it. In fact it’s absolutely imperative, particularly if you’re playing a (breakout) tactic such as this.

You need the figures & you need them to be accurate, timely & constantly updating.
Gut feelings won’t cut it in this scenario.
Your competitors (the ones who actually make profits playing this game) don’t wing it, they know the arse end of their approach/strategy/system backwards, forwards & inside out & can repeat it in their sleep……….that’s why they take other people’s money off them on a very regular basis.

But the guys who take other people’s money on a regular basis have.

Do you see where I’m going with these replies to your comments? :slight_smile:
You have a decent framework & structure but it needs a lot more work to firm it up properly in order to even stand half a chance of remaining robust against the crosswinds awaiting it/you further down the line.

Good luck

Speed_bump
I like your critical thinking.
I think however, that we have to way different approaches to trading. Although I have tested the crap out of this, it’s still doesn’t say anything about whats gonna happen next. and we do trade our beliefs. I believe trading is more art than science. You are probably a more quantitive trader than I am and I’m sure we both can be profitable on what ever approach we take. Wouldn’t you agree? Do you believe there is only one way to trade?

I’ve chosen a path that embraces uncertainty by staying in the market 95% of the time. That is not robust, that is anti-fragile. The method gain from disorder. Did you predict the big move on the pound? me neither, but I was in it, mainly because I’m constantly in the market and learning to embrace the uncertainty… well at least I’m getting pretty there.

You obviously have a belief system that needs to have numbers (and there is nothing wrong with that…)

I wish you all the best :slight_smile:

I’m pretty ambivalent to be honest. When I’ve punted my own money I’ve swung both ways.
In-house & fellow broker statistics suggest however those punting discretionary non-automated models struggle very badly & the numbers are woeful. When you filter & drill down further into specific client categories, the deck is stacked quite high against your typical less experienced, low capitalized punter.

To the average retail forum member life is incredibly tough when they spin into a live account & it’s virtually impossible to survive over the medium term. Sure there will always be exceptions with some growing legs & they’ll be the odd one or two will jog along without doing themselves too much harm, but unless they size & wise up quickly the half decent ones will eventually settle into a steady cycle of losing a bit, winning a bit followed by long periods of breakeven in between.

Most simply aren’t anywhere near psychologically mature enough or financially disposed to withstand the rigours of regular participation engaging via a discretionary model. Neither they themselves or their models are robust enough. They spend far too much time, energy & money chasing their tails & not enough carefully choosing their battles.

As I said earlier, it’s an incredibly tough playground & not for faint of heart.

Most simply aren’t anywhere near psychologically mature enough or financially disposed to withstand the rigours of regular participation engaging via a discretionary model.

Is there any systems out there that doesn’t have a little discretion in them?

I think it’s a mindset thing. Most people aren’t ready or want to change. Because it’s hurts to see your flaws, ego and in general knowing yourself. Usually after a drawdown people try to fix their system by putting an extra indicator on their chart. While the real reason is because of their fear of losing, missing out etc. It’s normal for people in every day life to just fix the outside instead of inside yourself. I think that’s the biggest hurdle. Of course you need to work on your risk management, your business plan etc. that’s logical in my world. But the willingness to deal with your mental errors and thinking, that’s the biggest hurdle.

What I found amazing in this forum is that the most difficult task of them all in trading, your psychology, is in the newbie area. Sigh…

Van Tharp nails it down in a podcast here - Interview with Van Tharp - Better System Trader and I 100% agree with him

I read this post yesterday and couldn’t stop thinking about it . Then this morning I stumbled across the following quote “this is not a game of passive learning, but rather an art of active participation” and thats when your post made complete sense to me.
I must thank you Grabowski because its been a light bulb moment for me. All the support and resistance lines I draw are meaningless to the market because collective mentality of all participants is random, how would you predict the next turn of a flock of birds, or the direction a fish is going to go from one moment to the next?? Impossible. And no amount of quantitative analysis (excessive in most cases) will make it easier for you to come to terms with the random flow of information.

Great post.