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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:47 PM
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Good morning,

Nick:

Sorry to hear about your VS trades (or rather that you're a bit dissapointed at the moment). It's admirable that you're sticking to the system though. It's the only way to do things though as difficult as it may be. I must tell you that I saw your post last night and started to reply to it but got called away for something and did not finish my reply. While I was replying to you last night (to give you an example) one of my accounts was UP 24% ON THE DAY. As I type to you now the same account is now only UP 15% on yesterday i.e. the profits have gone down overnight i.e. in the last four hours. Dissapointing I know BUT I know for sure that, after I have now placed my stop and reverse orders, if they get hit, profit is locked in and I'll make some more on the stop and reverse. And, as is the nature of Wilder's systems, the chances are that some of the stop and reverse orders will NOT be hit and the profits will continue to climb in the next four hourse (probably even surpass the 24% of yesterday). The temptation is ALWAYS there to take profit when you see 'nice big juicy' profits in front of you BUT it's not following the system or proving anything i.e. by 'bailing early' you'll never be sure if your system is 'sound' or not. By following the trades through 'no matter what' I have proved to myself that the SI System is 'sound'.

NOW:

AGAIN:

This 'leverage thing':

I have worked out this little 'table' for us based on Wilder's money management rules taking our possible leverage settings into account. It's not much different from what I've been using up until now i.e. it's even slightly more conservative BUT is seems to make sense and regardless of your leverage setting it SHOULD protect you from overtrading.

Wilder says to not use more than 15% of your capital on a single commodity (I take that as being per instrument per trade). He also says to never have margined more than 60% of your total capital at any given moment in time. So in keeping with these rules this is what I've come up with:

Positions:

Leverage / Position size as a percentage of capital to not exceed:

50:1 / 15%*
100:1 / 7.5%
200:1 / 3.75%**
400:1 / 1.875%

Capital Management:

Leverage / Percentage of total capital margined at any given moment in time:

50:1 / 60% (GCI lot size $200)*
100:1 / 30% (GCI lot size $100)
200:1 / 15% (GCI lot size $50)**
400:1 / 7.5% (GCI lot size $25)

* Taken this to be the leverage that Wilder used and upon which he based his money management rules.

** The default for most of us.

As you can see: the higher your leverage the more capital you need in your account in order to comply with these (his???) money management rules.

I ALMOST guarantee that using the above maximums will 'keep you out of trouble'. Obviously you STILL have to take into account the $ value of a tick / point / pip movement i.e. you STILL do not attempt to trade Soybeans or the Brasilian Bovespa with a $500 account!!!

Last edited by dpaterso; 04-02-2008 at 10:59 PM.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 12:10 AM
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Thanks for that info on the money management Dale. It helps a lot, and it's funny to say this because usually it's the opposite problem, but it looks like I am being a little TOO conservative with my trades, not that it's a totally bad thing. I have 50:1 leverage with Oanda and my trades are only margining about 5% of my account balance each, but I think I'm going to increase that a bit now, probably to 10% or so.

I'm also going to officially start trading the SI live tonight.. decided on gbp/jpy and Gold, wonder how long it will be until I get a trade on the daily charts? I'll be sure to keep you posted on my results, and also with the VS trades as well. I was wondering though: from your experience are the SI trades held as long as VS trades on average? I know we discussed this earlier but I just want to make sure it will be okay to keep trading the VS and SI (and TBP) on the same instruments (gbp/jpy and gold) at the same time and avoid any conflicts.


edit: Looking at my spreadsheet for the Gold SI, I noticed that I am getting some negative values on some days for the ASI... have you ever seen this? Everything appears to be correct, and it doesn't seem like it will affect the trades because HSPs and LSPs can still be identified and also the TISAR.

Also, I'm having a problem with the 60-point TISAR. When I change the limit number, it makes the ASI values change at a different rate, for example if I set the limit for gold to 3.00, there will be MANY days where the ASI changes by more than 60 points since the values are in the 1000s... and vice versa if I make the limit 200 the SI values are MUCH smaller (like -20 to 20) so the ASI will practically NEVER change by 60 points over a period of time!! Could it be that the 60-point TISAR needs to be changed based on the values of the ASI or something? Or maybe since gold is quoted (usually) xxx.xx (or for example 850.54) I need to multiply the SI by a "pipfactor" of some sort (like 0.1) since the instrument used in the book is quoted xx.xx (or for example 56.35).

On my spreadsheet for gold, if I leave the limit at 3.00, and multiply the resulting SI values by a "pipfactor" of 0.1, I get SI values that for the most part stay between -100 and 100, but there are several days where it is greater than 100 or less than -100...

Last edited by chirules54; 04-03-2008 at 02:12 AM.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:58 AM
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Good morning (again)!!!

Initially I was working on one half of Wilder's money management rules i.e. 7.5% of capital per instrument / position and 30% of total capital. I then decided to be slightly more conservative and start using one third of Wilder's money management rules i.e. 5% of capital per instrument / position and 20% of total capital. After I started thinking about GCI's leverage and position sizes and after I got John's response I then re-worked things out so that I was sure that the same money management rules would work at both brokers i.e. GCI and Delta and, after drawing up that table, it would appear that I was (LUCKILY) not far out to start with i.e. using EXACTLY his money management rules with 50:1 leverage is ALMOST exactly the same as using one half of his money management rules with 200:1 leverage.

As I said before: using a decent money management system has definitely made all the difference and is yet another reason that I have now uncovered for my shortcomings last year. If you can remember: sometime back I actually said to you (I think it was you anyway) that it seemed to take me a LOT longer to wipe an account at Delta than it took me to wipe an account out at GCI. Only NOW do I see the reason for this i.e. money management. At GCI the COST of the lot is fixed and the lot SIZE is varied by GCI whereas at Delta the lot SIZE is (can) be varied by the trader and the COST of the lot is then varied accordingly. What this means is that at Delta as I would run out of margin I'd be able to reduce the lot size whereas at GCI I would always be trading the same lot size while the captial was being reduced!!! May sound simple and logical NOW with hindsight but at the time I could not really figure this out. Now I know and 'the sky is the limit' I reckon!!!

Now that I'm trading off the 4 hour charts my SI System trades seem to run on average for about a day and a half, maybe two days, from the time of opening a position until the stop and reverse.

Just one thing you need to consider when trading the same instruments with multiple systems: at GCI this could be done no problem i.e. opening multiple positions on the same instrument in either direction is possible because the positions do not offset each other (this is the 'hedging' capability they 'bang on' about). At Delta though this would NOT be possible because if you have a few positions open on an instrument (let's say going long for example) and you then try to open some short positions on the same instrument (this would happen sometimes if the systems were giving conflicting signals) then the short positions would immediately close some of the long positions (unless you use the 'Trades with Logical orders' option which 'sucks' in my opinion i.e. not the same as GCI's 'hedging'). Delta's method is indeed the correct method i.e. enables you to perform a 'proper' stop and reverse i.e. without having to place a stop on one position and another order for the reverse on the other position as you would have to do at GCI. I am not familiar with the way Oanda operates as far as this is concerned but just 'check it out' first is all.

Somewhere in the book, hidden away in a dark corner, you'll find that Wilder actually says that if the ASI have a negative value then the trend is down and if the ASI has a positive value then the trend is up. How powerful is THAT knowledge my friends??? A MATHEMATICAL way of determining the long term trend direction!!! Point is: yes you will get positive and negative value for the ASI i.e. it is correct.

As I said to you before: I've left the limit number in the equation and kept it at 3.00 i.e. my ASI calculations are exactly the same as the original BUT I added the 'PIPFACTOR' at the end and divide the ASI by the 'PIPFACTOR'. As I also said before: you'll note that PARTICULARLY with forex pairs the TISAR is ALWAYS the closes stop and reverse point i.e. I have yet to see when the last HSP or LSP was the closest stop and reverse point on a forex pair. Also remember that Gold, USD/ZAR, EUR/ZAR, and GBP/ZAR are 'special cases' i.e. the 'PIPFACTOR' for Gold is / must be 0.10 and not 0.01 as you might expect and the 'PIPFACTOR' for the ???/ZAR pairs is / must be 0.0010 and not 0.0001 again as you might expect. I'm sure I've been through this before, but anyway, I use GCI's tick value from their Contract Specifications page to get the 'PIPFACTOR' (found here: GCI Financial Ltd - Online Forex and CFD Trading) (see all the '0.1' and '1.0' and '0.01' figures. Those are the 'PIPFACTORS' that I use). If you're still having a problem then email me at dpaterso@forexbrokersonline.net and I'll send you another spreadsheet (or a couple) for you to have a look at (I don't want to attach the spreadsheets here anymore because as one of our 'thread members' quite correctly pointed out to me a little while ago: by posting the spreadsheets I'm possibly 'giving away' the systems to 'hangers on' who are not prepared to do the 'slog' and are just here 'for the ride' i.e. not prepared to even buy the book like the rest of us. Not to mention the copyright issues again of course).

By the way: as I'm replying to you now I just thought that you would like to know that since my last post to you earlier this morning one of my accounts (for example) is BACK up to 20% on yesterdays and climbing steadily and that's after two positons have already been stopped and reversed at losses in the preceding 4 hours. 'Hang in' with these systems and you can't go wrong in the end!!!

And by the way: to keep myself 'occupied' I'm think I'm going to give the VS a 'run' on GBP/JPY 1 hour i.e. been tracking it since last night waiting for an entry. I was also looking at the Reaction Trend System yesterday again (as you can see trading the 4 hour timeframe is giving some 'spare time' now). It occured to me that you could trade that system WITHOUT going through all the 'B', 'O', and 'S' 'mumbo jumbo' i.e. you just 'go for it' i.e. in a ranging market you place a stop order to sell AFTER S1 has been penetrated and the price is still above S1 and you place a stop order to buy AFTER B1 has been pentrated and the price is still below B1 (pretty much the same thing that you would do when CORRECTLY trading with Pivot Points). It appears to work EVERY TIME!!! Take a look. That's probably the second most complicated system in the book i.e. very high maintenance if you follow the 'B', 'O', and 'S' 'thingy' but if you use it the way I just desribed it's 'quick and easy'. Will probably 'demo' my 'theory' sometime during the course of the day / week. As a matter of fact I have used the HBOP's and LBOP's from that system on their own quite successfully in the past. Not many trades though i.e. you're always waiting for a breakout so I got impatient and moved on.

Last edited by dpaterso; 04-03-2008 at 03:19 AM.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:00 AM
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Thanks for that Dale, it helps but I'm still having issues. On gold, If I leave the limit at 3, and don't use a pipfactor at all, my SI values range between roughly -1000 and 1000, so dividing by the pipfactor of 0.1 will only make the values bigger. However, if I leave the limit at 3 and MULTIPLY the end result of the SI by 0.1, then I get values that fluctuate between about -115 and 115, which seems to be right.

On a "standard" forex pair like usd/cad where the price is quoted 1.xxxx if I keep the limit at 3 and divide the SI by a pipfactor of .001 (not .0001) I get SI values which fluctuate between -500 and 500 or so, and if I change the pipfactor to .01 the values fluctuate between -50 and 50 or so, which actually seems more correct to me because the price data I'm using for this pair (the last 6 weeks or so) the market is mostly ranging, so the values not getting much higher or lower than 50 or -50 seems to make sense.

I'm not sure why I'm getting these results, but as long as I tweak the pipfactor to divide (or multiply) by a tick value that makes the SI values range between roughly -100 and 100 do you think it will be okay? Are you still getting SI values sometimes that are a little bit higher or lower than -100 and 100? I just don't get how I am having these problems because if I plug in the figures from the book into my spreadsheet everything is spot on perfect...
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:37 AM
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Hello,

I see where you're getting confused i.e. same problem I had i.e. I tried various different 'PIPFACTORS' or variations of the limit value to try and make thing 'look' right and you can't do that i.e. if you start trying to use values to make things 'look' right you either end up with a TISAR that will NEVER get hit in a lifetime or one that is so close you'd be stopping and reversing on every bar. Don't worry about the SIZE of the numbers that you're getting for the ASI just make sure that your calculations are constant and consistent throughout.

Here are examples of some of my values (using the ASI value from the previously completed bar):

Gold (PIPFACTOR: 0.10, Limit: 3.00):

Daily : 103611
4 Hour : 42307
1 Hour : -6633

Silver (PIPFACTOR: 0.01, Limit: 3.00):

Daily : 17757
4 Hour : 8600
1 Hour : -337

The value of 60 would be added or subtracted from these numbers for the TISAR value. (Your numbers WILL be different from mine but the ranges should be close to them). I'm not worrying myself about the SI range being over or under -100 / 100 as stated in the book because it was YOU the other day that said it's probably because we don't have limits anymore (at least not on these instruments). Let me put it another way: whether I'm right or wrong here the SI System is working well so EVEN IF I / we are wrong here which I seriously doub't then I STILL would not worry about it too much. Like I said: send me an email and I'll send you some spreadsheets and charts with the ASI and TISAR plotted and you will be able to see from there).

Again: don't try to 'fit' your ASI plot to the example drawn in the book i.e. you'll never get it right. As a matter of fact you'll actually find that the reason your ASI plot MAY look different is also due to the fact that the actual 'scaling' of your plot will be different to his manual plot on the graph paper i.e. Excel and the trading platforms 'scale' the plot so that it fits on the screen. If you enlarge the plot that you see on the screen only then do you get a plot that resembles his example.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:52 AM
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By the way (I figured this warranted it's own post):

As I have also said before you COULD forget about the TISAR altogether and only trade the HSP's and LSP's. This would keep you in trades longer and probably avoid many whipsaws. The drawback (and it's a very big one) is the fact that if you (for example) place a stop order to go long because you've had a close above the last HSP and that order gets executed and the price then immediately retracts and 'tanks' down you're only going to place an order to stop and reverse when the price closes below the last LSP and if the HSP and LSP are far away from each other you COULD find yourself in DEEP 'sh*t'. It's a suggestion but not one that I would follow. The only reason I'm telling you this is because it's the calculation and plot i.e. 'visual representation' of the TISAR that's confusing you (and confused me for a while) not the calculation of the ASI i.e. as we have ALSO said before it makes no difference whether you use a limit, a PIPFACTOR, or anything else the actual plot of the ASI does not change.

Last edited by dpaterso; 04-03-2008 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 04-03-2008, 04:53 AM
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Thanks Dale, I get similar values to yours on gold for the ASI (ranging between about -7000 and 15000 for data compiled in the last 6 weeks) but I still don't understand how you use the 60 point TISAR since every day the ASI is changing much more than 60 points... I know there is something I'm not getting, still trying to figure it out...
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:01 AM
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Ok well it's a pleasure and it's probably better if you figure it out yourself. However: SEND ME AN EMAIL if you can't!!!

Actually: I just had a look at the daily Gold chart again and I THINK I see what's 'bugging you' i.e. yes you are quite right i.e. the ASI DOES go back on itself FAR more than 60 points on some (possibly most) days BUT remember that even if this happens it does NOT mean that the TISAR order is getting executed i.e. most times (as he says in the book) the TISAR order will not get hit and the price continues on in the direction of your position. Remember that you are using stop orders 'a few ticks above or below the high or the low' of the signal bar NOT market orders like the VS. Maybe that's what you're not seeing. Not sure.

Last edited by dpaterso; 04-03-2008 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:12 AM
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Hopefully that's what I'm seeing, just as an example here are my last 10 ASI values for the daily chart on gold:

1,396.20
1,859.31
5,130.13
7,078.61
5,929.16
3,305.47
1,055.13
-7,458.35
-8,353.07
-4,092.72

This is with taking the SI for each day (with limit 3) and dividing it by .1, then calculating the ASI as yesterday's ASI plus or minus today's SI.. so according to my (obviously incorrect) values the ASI changes 1000 points a day at least.
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:42 AM
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Hoookay, I see the problem.

Basically you're figures are probably right but you're not dividing them by the 'PIPFACTOR' to get what I call a 'PASI'. In other words if you divide all of those figures that you gave me by the 'PIPFACTOR' of 0.10 THEN you're figures are similar to mine.

Having said that I know that you are aware of the 'PIPFACTOR' thing so I'm not sure where you've included it in your ASI calculation. I am calculating the ASI EXACTLY as per Wilder and then DIVIDING HIS ASI by MY 'PIPFACTOR' and that's how I'm getting to my ASI values. The 60 points for the TISAR are subtraced from my 'PASI' and NOT from HIS (original) ASI and my 'PASI' is rounded off to zero decimals.
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