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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:45 AM
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Here is a little 'tidbit' for those of you who are 'curious' about Wilder's 'Delta Phenomenon'.

It unfortuanately seems to bear out what I said in my post prior to this one i.e. the Dow has a way to go 'south' yet (see attached chart). It MAY rally (up) for a day or two (possibly even today and tomorrow) but it will then go 'south' again (probably in my estimation to S3 as I mentioned previously). From around the 21st March 2008 we should see a strong rally up and it is my belief that from 21st April 2008 the Dow will either rally to 14 000 and beyond OR it will go further 'south' (and then my friends we are looking at Dow below 10 000 which is pretty much going to be a 'disaster' for the US stock market).

I'm afraid that, again due to copyright reasons, I'm not at liberty to give you more information AND I must also add that I'm still 'very wary' of (or should I rather say 'timid' about) basing any trading decisions on 'The Delta Phenomenon' as yet due to my lack of experience with it and my limited knowledge and understanding of it BUT this should be a good 'test' of my understanding of it (firstly) and secondly I just thought that you may find it interesting and I'd like to see where we actually go from here.

(I know this is not 'New Concepts In Technical Trading Systems' 'theory' BUT it's still 'Wilder' and 'the man' paid a small fortune to patent and copyright the 'phenomenon')!!!
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 08:23 AM
 

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Cool Waiting

Greetings All,

Looks like while I wait for "New Concepts in Technical Trading", I need to order the delta phenomenon and then get undone by the reading and understanding curve....

Well it feels as though I'm coming down with some sort of bug so I may even get the time to read to the point of understanding... A mixed blessing at best...

Later

Brian
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 10:59 PM
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Sorry Dale, been a bit busy lately. Anyway, the volatility system is still working ok, I am tracking gold, gbp/jpy, aud/jpy, and usd/cad at the moment. The only open trade at the moment is short aud/jpy, which was in profit as much as 300 pips but is now back down around 30-40 pips at the moment. I have not yet got any other signals, although gold is getting closer and also gbp/jpy. I hate to say this, but something happened yesterday with the TBP system, and 8 of my 10 trades hit the stops!! It wiped out about 70% of the profits I had made with the system over the past month. I still plan on using the system, it looks like things are setting up for me to gain some of that loss back in the next few days as some big moves in several pairs seem to indicate some reversals, at least in the short term. I want to start using the swing index system, and I am almost done with school for the term so I will have some free time in about a week.

With regards to my "weighting" theory, it is really quite simple. Let's simplify it by only using 3 pairs: gbp/jpy, eur/gbp, and eur/usd. First I would find the difference between the TBP target and TBP stop for each pair, for the past 30 days or so, and find the average of this, which is the "range". I calculate this by taking the "ABS" function in excel (gives the absolute value) and then subtracting the stop from the target level, so if I come up with a negative number it is changed to postive by the "ABS" function. This "range" is basically a measure of the volatility of the pair, as more volatile pairs will have a bigger difference between the stop and target (obviously). Then, I convert this range into pips, by dividing each of the ranges by their "pipfactor" which for non-jpy pairs is .0001 and jpy-based pairs is .01. With my calculations, (which are a bit outdated so don't try to recalculate them) I came up with a range of 376 pips for gbp/jpy, 179 for eur/usd and 78 for eur/gbp. Just from these numbers it is obvious which pairs move more than others. The next step is to figure out the actual weighting of the pairs. The first thing I did was decide what my "baseline" trade size is, which for me is $0.20 per pip. Since I trade 10 pairs with the TBP, I found the median range of these ten pairs (which happens to be eur/usd at 179) and set that equal to the baseline, so my trade size for eur/usd is $0.20 per pip. To get the trade size of the others, I calculate a multiplier by taking that pair's range, subtracting it from the baseline and then divide by the baseline to get the % difference from the baseline. Then, I add 1 to get the multiplier. So, for eur/gbp the range is 78, minus the 179 baseline divided by 179 is -.436, plus 1 equals .564, which means that the range of eur/gbp is 56.4% of the baseline, so the trade size needs to be increased to make up for the lower volatility. To get the final trade value, take the baseline level ($0.20 per pip) and divide by the multiplier for each pair, so for eur/gbp you would get $0.35 per pip. Since eur/gbp moves less, you are trading with bigger pip values to average everything out, so pairs like gbp/jpy have much lower pip values (only around $0.09 per pip for me).

I apologize for all that, hopefully it makes sense, if you have any questions about it just ask, or I can e-mail the spreadsheet if you want. The only problem I see with it are if certain pairs "behave" better than others, like if you get more winning trades with eur/usd than with chf/jpy for example, since this weighting system totally ignores that aspect. Also, if your broker does not allow you to change your lot sizes like this, then it is not possible to weight the pairs exactly like I have. Oanda lets me make my lot sizes whatever I choose, so I can buy $500 worth of eur/usd, $2,000, or $5,231... it doesn't matter. I can even buy $1 worth if I really wanted, but it would tae quite a move to make any money

Anyway, I had a question for you Dale: Since it has pretty much been determined that stock indices and commodities follow these systems better, I want to eventually switch to trading these instruments exclusively. The problem I am having is finding a broker that will let me trade cfd's and stocks with a lower account balance. The lowest I have been able to find is $2,000 which is a little out of reach for me. I realize that you are dealing with different lot sizes and such and need more margin to cover it but I was wondering if you knew of any brokers with lower account balance requirements. I see that GCI only requires $500 for a forex account, but $2,000 for a stock/cfd account..

Last edited by chirules54; 03-12-2008 at 12:08 AM.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2008, 03:47 AM
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Hello and good morning!!!

I'm really sorry to hear about your stops being hit. Believe me: I KNOW it's a 'very bad feeling' especially after you've been making money and now most of your hard work is 'down the drain' and you basically have to 'start over'. I've had to 'start over' too many times to mention and it gets harder and harder everytime but 'hang in there' because the irony of the thing is this (and funny enough not five minutes ago I was having this conversation with somebody): the MOMENT you stop trading a system because you've lost you can 'bet your bottom dollar' that no sooner will you have stopped trading it and it will 'do what it was supposed to do' and you WOULD have made you a lot of profit had to 'stuck with it'. It's the hardest thing to do I know. I STILL go through this even now with the Swing Index System let me tell you but experience over the past few months has taught me this: when you first start using ANY system you'll ALWAYS start using it at the 'wrong time' AND the moment you STOP using ANY system the market will 'miraculously' 'fall in' with the system that you've just stopped using!!! I don't know WHY but I do know that this 'phenomenon' definitely exists for whatever reason!!!

Thank you for the detailed (and may I say 'complex') explanation of your weighting system. You know: it's funny but I was thinking about you and the TBP System and your weighting system the other day and I did not want to post this until I'd heard how it was going but now maybe this is the time to post my thoughts. I was thinking: if you only traded ONE pair EVER then you would not have to worry about this 'factor' with the TBP System. That's for starters. Secondly: I had this thought (and I KNOW I'll be 'slated' for this because it really 'smacks' of the 'Martingale Strategy' i.e. 'doubling up until you win' in gambling BUT hear me out first before you comment anyone): The TBP System is purported to be profitable 70%+ of the time (which I believe is true after working out 'trade for trade' how many times your TP is hit). So what about this: you only ever trade ONE pair AND you start with one lot (does not matter what size because your capital would / should determine this). You keep trading this lot size UNTIL you get stopped out at which time you take the next TBP System trade with double the lot size and, if your TP is hit, you revert back to your initial single lot size. If you get stopped out you double up on your lot size again. Get the picture??? Now: this IS different from the 'Martingale Strategy' for the simple reason that you DO HAVE a system that is profitable 70%+ of the time so it's not like with a typical 'Martingale Strategy' where you are sort of 'betting' on a 50/50 chance that you're 'right'. Does that make sense??? Obviously you have to ensure that you have enough margin to 'pull this off' but look at it this way: if the TBP System is profitable 70% of the time that means that 7 out of every 10 trades is profitable so it means that you theoretically only have to 'double up' a maximum of 3 times in a row (actually its not 'double up' it's more because it would have to go something like this if you had 3 successive losses: 1/2/4 and maybe even 8 lots and you have to allow for the losses as well). OK: it might sound 'risky' and yes you need margin (or smaller lot sizes) BUT remember that statistically the TBP System 'delivers' 70%+ of the time (which I'm sure you can vouch for at this stage as well) so (and I HATE drawing parallels between gambling and this business but there is no better way to put it): the 'odds' are 'stacked' in you favour with the TBP System.

Thoughts? This also (obviously) 'does away' with the need to weight pairs against each other AND also ensures that you have not inadvertently ended up with two pairs that, because of the correlation between the two, you effectively have a 'double lot' e.g. long Gold and long AUD/USD!!!

As far as GCI is concerned: I don't know if they've changed anything but I know I opened both of my accounts with $500 last year (which is a mistake at GCI as far as I'm concerned but be that as it may). I'll check with them although I'm pretty sure that the $2 000 is for a 'Standard CFD Account' and that account has a minumum lot size of $200 and, at 200:1 leverage, I can assure you that it's 'playing with fire' at GCI. Anyway: like I said: I'll check up with them and come back to you.

Keep on trading!!! It WILL work out for you. You have good 'tried and tested systems' in front of you.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2008, 06:33 AM
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Thanks for that Dale.. it makes a lot of sense. I've been thinking about cutting back the pairs I am trading, it would make things a lot simpler and perhaps more profitable. I like your "martigale strategy" and I am thinking about testing it somehow. The only issue I have with it is that say you use it with the TBP system, and you are trading one lot and you hit the stop (lost trade). Since the stop is further away than the target, a win (even with the doubled lot size) may not bring you back to even, since the target is usually much closer than the stop. I've read about martigale betting systems before, and from what I've read, the main reason they wouldn't work in a casino is because there is a cap on what you can bet. You can be playing blackjack at $50 a hand, but the table max can be $5,000 or $10,000 so if you keep doubling after consecutive losses you will eventually hit the limit so to speak and the system doesn't work. However, with blackjack the casino always has the edge (unless you can count cards of course) but with the TBP for example, the system is right 70% of the time so the odds of consecutive losses which could wipe out your margin are relatively low. Because you have suggested this idea, I have a question for you... if you would trade any forex pair with the TBP, volatility and SI systems, which would you choose? I know commodities are better but I was just wondering what you thought with regards to forex pairs. I appreciate you checking on the GCI business too, I'd like to open a CFD account with them, but I realize that trading with only $500 margin is a bad idea, but I don't have $2,000 to work with either, so maybe I will aim for $1,000 if I can open an account with that.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:37 AM
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Hello,

OK: just one thing: I PERSONALLY have NOT tried this i.e. I was only thinking about it the other day MAINLY because of this 'weighting story' first of all and also because of the HUGE TBP Systems stops. And yes: you are right about the losses i.e. somehow you would have to 'factor in' the losses as well and adjust your 'new' lot size accordingly after every loss. You are quite right about the reason that 'Martingale' does not work too well in gambling (because of the table maximums) BUT as you have noted this is NOT the same thing i.e. your 'odds' with the TBP System are NOWHERE NEAR 50/50 AND there is no minimum so basically you're only limited by your capital. I did read somewhere about some or the other 'Reverse Martingale System' for forex i.e. you START with MORE lots and DECREASE your lot size with every PROFITABLE trade (or was it LOSING trade???) (to be honest it never made sense to me anyway).

I have just checked GCI's website AND contacted them and they tell me that the account opening minimums changed in January this year!!! I did not know that (and I had better go and update my website after posting this message)!!! I see that $2 000 is NOW the minimum for ALL their accounts AND they no longer seem to have 'Micro' and 'Mini' and all of that. I will now contact my 'connection' over there and see if they can do anything about this minimum or if there is a way around it. I'll let you know.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:37 PM
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Thanks Dale, yes that is a bit disappointing about how they changed their account minimums, we'll see what happens I guess. Anyway, I had a few hours of free time last night and I read about the swing index system, it is more complex than the TBP system but I am getting a pretty good grasp on how it works. Like you said in an earlier post, it seems the day you give up on trading a certain system is the day that it will start working again.. well my patience is wearing out with the TBP system. I think starting tomorrow I am going to switch back to only trading one pair with it. Today again I have hit 4 of the stops out of my 10 pairs and my account balance is now below what I started with. I don't want to give up on the system altogether, but I now need to choose a pair that will give the best results.. I was thinking one of the majors like gbp/usd, eur/usd or usd/jpy, I am not sure though. I can also trade gold through oanda, but I'm not sure if trading it would be better than a forex pair.. it is a commodity but it seems to be not doing too much lately, what do you think? I also had a crazy idea.. what if you were to trade the TBP system and either the volatility and/or SI at the same time with the same pair/commodity? The TBP is more of a "short-term" system since you get trades every day and it follows the intraday fluctuations, but the SI and volatility systems are more long term and tend to follow trends.. do you think this could work? I think it could except for the fact that certain forex pairs are probably better suited for the TBP system, and some are better suited for the SI or volatility (ones that trend more and have a higher asx or csi). So maybe choose one pair/commodity for each system and "stick to it".

edit: Sorry, another thing I just thought of. Since Wilder himself says that you can still use two systems (TBP and reaction trend) during times where the adx is below 20, and to only use the trend following systems (SI, volatility) when the adx is favorable, or above 20-25, you could follow these rules by using BOTH systems on a pair/commodity when the adx is good, but drop the trend-following system when the adx turns sour and stick to the tbp system only, only to return to using both when the adx comes "back to life". Sorry for throwing all these ideas out there, just trying to make sense of everything.

Last edited by chirules54; 03-12-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2008, 05:16 PM
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Hi,

No problem (and again I'm sorry to hear about the stops). If it's any consolation I'm having a REAL bad day too i.e. the SI System is causing me 'grief' today as well AND as a matter of fact I need to make a VERY important announcement to everyone (you of course included):

DO NOT TRADE THE SWING INDEX SYSTEM LIVE UNTIL WE HAVE DISCUSSED SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Get to know it, familiarise yourself with it, BUT DON'T TRADE IT - AT LEAST NOT ON FOREX PAIRS UNTIL WE'VE HAD TIME TO DISCUSS AN 'ISSUE' THAT I HAVE FOUND!!! Don't get me wrong: the SI System DOES work, and well, but I've spent most of the day 'checking something out' and I THINK I've found the 'keys to to kingdom' with the SI System anyway i.e. I've THINK I've discovered a way to make it work in ALL markets ALL THE TIME but there is no point in me explaining it to anybody until we're 'all on the same page' i.e. until you know the 'ins and outs' of the SI System so that YOU know what I'M trying to explain. If I'm right you can 'scrap' ALL other systems I promise you.

chirules54:

If I can give you any advice right now it would be to go through the SI System NOW and stop trading the other stuff for a while (do NOT wipe out your account). I don't know what's going on with the markets at the moment but it sure looks like everything that I do at the moment is also 'turning to sh*t'. I'm just sorry that I did not make my 'SI discovery' yesterday or the day before i.e. I'd be 'smiling smiling smiling' right now but so be it.

Edit:

I'm also finding that with forex pairs the ADX and ADXR are meaning 'less and less' at time goes on. The only thing I've found that POSSIBLY improves matters is changin the default period of 14 to 7 i.e. this makes is a little more 'responsive' and 'reliable' when it comes to the TBP System and the RT System BUT it still seems to keep you out of a lot of good trades even with a period of 7 but it's at least more 'accurate'.

You know: it's at times like this that I find myself having to remind myself that these systems were developed in 1978 (or prior) and the markets were a lot 'slower' then. What we need to do is 'feed them some steriods' for todays markets (especially forex). Either that: or we all trade JUST Soybeans!!!

Last edited by dpaterso; 03-12-2008 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-12-2008, 10:06 PM
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Yes, I think that is a good idea and I am not going to open any new positions with the TBP or volatility systems for now. The only good thing is since I was doing so well with the TBP system in the past few weeks that even with the two straight days of catastrophic losses I am still at about 80% of my original capital. I am tempted to keep trading gold alone with the TBP system, as even through the past week it has still done pretty well for me. I am going to study up on the SI a little more tonight, so I should have a good grasp on it by then.

edit: I am only trading gold with the TBP system at the moment, so far 2 for 2. A new trade was opened at midnight ny time yesterday (5 hours ago or so) and is currently up about 350 pips, the entry was at 994.25 and the target is 1002. Hopefully gold can break into the 1000s again tomorrow! I also couldn't resist and took a short usd/jpy trade yesterday not based on any system, but just the fact that it broke 100.00 for the first time in 12 years! It's rebounded to around 100.50 right now, but all the information I have been reading says that it has nowhere to go but down, especially after the upcoming fed rate cuts, I think citibank projects it to hit 95.00 in the next 3 months or something.

Last edited by chirules54; 03-14-2008 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:28 PM
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Hey Dale, I have the weekend free and I am getting more familiar with the SI. I'm wondering if your "fix" has been successful. Anyway, it looks like my usd/jpy short trade I mentioned above is doing quite well, I almost took profit when it broke 99.00 but I held on because I want to see what happens next week. The gold TBP trade also hit the target at 1002, so that's 3 for 3 with only trading gold My lone short aud/jpy volatility system trade is also doing well again, it hit new lows again today and its now around 310 pips up. The only scary thing is that the SAR point is still about 200 pips above what I entered the trade at, but the trend doesn't look complete yet. Like you said, I am not going to enter any new trades (except for gold with the TBP) until we can talk about the SI "fix". I am writing a spreadsheet for the SI right now, I should have it done in a few hours. Anyway, hope your trading is back on the rebound..
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