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  #2121 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2008, 07:21 PM
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Hi Dale

I have made it to page 44 in this thread and just wanted to say thank you for sharing your system and experiences with us.

Only 170 pages to go..
but it is definately worth it!

I am not going to ask any questions till I read read it all. Should take another week or so work permitting, so chat to you then..

keep it going!
Brendon
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  #2122 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 02:52 AM
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Hi Brendon ('my china')!!! (I KNOW I don't have to explain that to YOU)!!!

How are things over there?

Things were pretty 'dismal' here up until this past week with the Eskom 'power thing' and all but it seems to have (or at least I hope it has) 'settled down' (for a while anyway).

Hey listen: don't be 'shy' to ask questions without reading the entire thread i.e. everybody else does!!! I'll try and help out as best I can BUT, of course, for the reasons mentioned on more than one occasion previously, it's advisable to go through the whole thing so that you can see what happened, get a REAL 'feel' for this 'trading thing' through the eyes of a bunch of amateurs that were not afraid to share their ups and downs and ideas and, I reckon, it's pretty good preparation for what MAY come your way AND (hopefully) it'll 'spare you the grief'!!! We all like to think we are truly different and 'special' individuals but I can tell you that the market is 'the equalizer'!!! It's real funny you know: I've been 'mentoring' someone on 'The Swing Index System' for the past two weeks or so. This person has never traded before and after seeing my results with the system decided to 'give it a bash' (which is surprising because she knows 'first hand' of my past losses). Now let me saw this: this is probably one of THE most 'together' and 'headstrong' and 'methodical' people I know. What surprised me is this: in only a very short space of time did I see her starting to 'react' to the market and get 'emotional' in EXACTLY the same way as I did in the beginning and and in exactly the same way as I continued to react for the good part of a year (last year). Even although I was EXTREMELY EXPLICIT about 'waiting for the set up to occur' and had given very strict instructions to NOT overtrade her account I watched her 'second guess' the system e.g. instead of placing stop or limit orders she started going in at market because 'I'm sure the price is going to get there' she said. Needless to say the price NEVER 'got there' and reversed and, of course, the end results were 'less than stellar'. I've also watched her 'double up' on positions because they 'looked good' and then started having to close come positions at a loss to avoid margin calls etc. etc. etc. and all of this happening while I'm phsycally standing there giving very clear instructions on what to do i.e. sort of like 'paint by number'. And I know it's not my instructions that are at fault for the simple reason that I am trading another three accounts with EXACTLY the same system and orders and making a profit on those three. I've also watched her holding on to a losing position because the loss was too great to just simply 'write it off' and 'it'll get better if I wait won't it' type of thing. I've also watched her get 'angry' when having to eventually realise this loss (and again: this is a person who really is nowhere NEAR as devoted to 'money' as I am). Now don't get me wrong: I personally think that she'll become a great trader in a very much shorter space of time than most but it was just very interesting to see how the market 'equalizes' us i.e we're ALL susceptible to the 'fear and greed' phenomenon (not to mention the 'patience' phenomenon) and it's only when you've learned to 'quell' and 'control' these emotions that you stand an even REMOTE chance of being succesful in this business.

There's your (my) 'thought for the day'!!!
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  #2123 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 03:41 AM
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Hey Dale, I was just wondering if you ever figured out that problem with the CSI, something to do with the inconsistencies of the charts. I went back and checked and the figures for adx and atr that I gave from oanda's charts on feb 7 for gbp/jpy were the same today, so in other words my data didn't "change".
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  #2124 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 04:20 AM
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Dale,

I'd just like to say a big thanks to you for havint the energy to keep this thread going. Depsite the fact it has drifted from PSAR, it is an incredible read. Everytime I come back from a job, I do my best to catch up with this.

I'm interested in the Wilder book you mention "New Concepts" but I still have a host of material to get through that I promised myself I would read before I bought any more.

But anyway mate, I'm glad you're back into the groove again and doing well, and this thread has been and still is a huge inspiration for me.

All the best
Boca
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  #2125 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 04:50 AM
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Hi Boca,

Nice to see YOU here again (the thread's gone very quiet of late and I don't see any of our 'old mates' around any more either). Anyway, it's a pleasure (keeping the thread 'up to date') (and it's a 'whole lot easier' to do now that I've got my ADSL back)!!!

Yup, I'm doing OK now i.e. I've think I've learned a lot and I have spent many, many, many hours getting to know Wilder's systems and indicators 'inside and out' and they are working for me. It'll be a long time before I recover last years losses but hey: I'm still 'in the game' and still as dedicated as ever to this business after all that and that's what counts (to me anyway)!!! If you do decide to buy the book (which I OBVIOUSLY HIGHLY recommend that you do) remember that I arranged for them to give any babypips.com members a discount so be sure to email me for the code if you decide to purchase it. I'll tell you this much though: it's 'worth it's weight in Gold' to me!!!

chirules54:

Thanks for reminding me. I actually forgot to check. The good news is that my values have also stayed the same. I may have 'misled' some with my 'rantings and ravings' about indicator value changing etc. etc. etc. What I SHOULD have mentioned is that the 'changing values issue' would only occur when an indicator is using the ENTIRE range of bars available to it at any given time to perform a calculation and would not affect the value of indicators that are only using, for example, 14 periods of historical data, or something like that. Like the ASI for instance: the ASI is the sum of ALL of the SI's on the chart so if the very first bar in the chart 'drops off' then the ASI sum will differ every day by that amount i.e. it's not using the same values every day and then just adding on the new days value i.e. it's dropping off the oldest value and then adding the new days value so of course it's going to be different every day UNLESS compensated for. ATR on the other hand is the average of the previous 14 days worth of TR data (or 7 or whatever you decide to use) so it's value would not be affected (unless of course you went back in time on the chart i.e. the ATR for the very first couple of bars on the chart would change every day as the oldest bar drops off). I hope that this explains what I was trying to say in more detail.

Anway, I'm glad I checked i.e. one can never be too sure. Suffice to say that all my values have remained constant (including the CSI) so I'm very happy about that needless to say!!!
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  #2126 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 07:47 AM
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Howzit Dale, (yes u don't have to explain it to me my china)

I realise the the psychological aspect can hurt you and it is something I will try put measures in to control before I start trading live. That is a good few months of reading, learning and demo-ing away.. at this stage I am still not convinced it is viable full stop...

I am on page 52 and progressing slowly but at this stage I would like to ask a question that may be a silly, but here goes...

I have read a few a trading systems that recommend not trading on friday due to it being more 'unpredictable'.

I am currently using oanda demo. You can choose to ignore weekend data and you can specify when you 'weekend' starts and stops.

So my question is: What If you ignore some of Friday and some of Monday data (not sure how much at this stage) to try and get PSAR (or any other trend indicators for that matter) calculated on 'cleaner' data. Would this possibly help reduce false reversal signals?

I applied this idea to a couple of daily graphs and noticed that 'some' of the false PSAR reversals dissapeared..

just an idea... I hope this hasn't been covered in posts I haven't got to yet.

regards
Brendon
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  #2127 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 08:48 AM
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Hi,

I have to admit that of late (it seems to have become more 'pronounced' lately) that the period between Sunday night and Monday morning New York time i.e. when the NYSE opens on Monday morning is a 'dog' i.e. nothing happens (at least not from where I 'sit') and the market definitely does not seem to have ANY direction whatsoever until Monday night after the NYSE has closed (and this applies to ALL the markets INCLUDING forex so please don't anyone post saying that the NYSE has nothing to do with forex because believe me it does even if it's only in 'sentiment'). I have also noticed lately that Monday seems to be the 'profit taking day' (lately anyway) i.e. things go 'roaring up' on Friday and then on Monday seem to go 'roaring down' again with the same 'fervour' (although I would imagine that this 'scenario' will constantly change and happen at different times as the year progresses). I am 'lucky' that at one of my brokers I don't get a 'Sunday bar' so that makes things easier. Having said that there has been so much 'unanswered debate' on this i.e. remember that the 'Sunday bar' includes the Asian session which is a 'big deal' so if you get a 'Sunday bar' do you just ignore it, combine it with Monday's bar, or what??? As this pertains to Parabolic SAR: the problem is this: what if the signal received on Sunday is RIGHT??? Then you've missed a trade and to get in late is 'suicide'. Parabolic SAR unfortuantely 'is what it is' i.e. it was designed to keep you 'in the market' no matter what and as soon as you 'break the cycle' you're actually just 'screwing yourself'. Having said all of that though: if you have a look back a few pages there are some 'ideas' that have 'come to mind' (I have not traded them so I can't tell you with certainty whether they have merit or not). One of them (that I like even though I have to say so myself) is waiting for a 'pullback' in price before acting on a Parabolic SAR entry signal. From what I've see (more often that not) when the first Parabolic SAR entry signal is given there is almost always a retraction in price for two or three days and then the price starts moving in the 'correct' Parabolic SAR direction. Yes, of course, by 'waiting' for two or three bars you could very well miss a trade but is this the end of the world when the other trades that you are in are almost always profitable??? Anyway, like I said, it was just an 'idea' that 'came to me' and I 'threw it out' on the thread to see if it interested anyone and if anyone wanted to 'demo it'. I mean, as I type, something else just 'came to me' i.e. what about 'combining' Parabolic SAR with 'Chucky's' '3 bar pivot' or whatever it's called i.e. you do NOT enter on the first Parabolic SAR entry signal but watch the bars until you get a valid entry to enter in the same direction as Parabolic SAR from 'Chucky's' system and then just 'track' the rest of the trade using Parabolic SAR and then repeat the process when you're 'instructed' to stop and reverse by Parabolic SAR??? Just another 'thought' (I'm 'full of them' lately)!!!

Last edited by dpaterso; 02-13-2008 at 08:53 AM.
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  #2128 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 08:31 PM
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The research I've done with PSAR is that it should not be used to enter trades, but to exit only. Use moving averages, MACD, RSI, ADX, inside bar, random entries, etc, etc, whatever works with you to enter trades, and then use PSAR to help you exit the trade. That's what I'm doing now after testing PSAR for almost 5 months now. I use PSAR as a guide to where I should place my trailling stops, but I don't blindly accept what PSAR tells me, you should look at what the price is doing, chart patterns, pivot points, etc, and then decide where to put the stops. Sometimes the stops indicated by PSAR are so stupid that I just ignore them. This is usually caused by huge price spikes. On other occasions the stops are just perfect, especially in those long and well defined trends. PSAR is a useful little mathematical tool but adding a bit of human thinking to the mix will improve your system considerably. Trade longer time frames (daily if possible) so you can have all the time in the world to properly look at the chart.

Also, stopping and reversing is not a good method either. The chances of getting a very long streak of consecutive losses increase dramatically if you use the original "stop and reversal" method. All trading methods have series of consecutive losses, it is inevitable, but in a ranging period PSAR will kill you if you are always in the market. You can easily get 10 consecutive losses, followed by small wins and then another 10 consecutive losses. In my tests I had up to 18 consecutive losses. Maybe it works with commodities, but currencies I don't think so. You should only trade in the direction of the long term trend, if the trade stops wait for another entry signal, don't reverse it. It's better to have less trades, but ones with much higher probability of being profitable.

Another thing, PSAR is highly susceptible to price spikes, so I'm my system I have 2 PSARs on the same chart, one is the original 0.02; 0.02; 0.2 using the high, close and low prices of the bars. The other is also 0.02; 0.02; 0.2 but it only takes into account the closing price of the bars. This one gives smaller initial stops, less reversals and smoother trends, try it on your charts. Note that this PSAR will only reverse if the candle CLOSES below/above the PSAR, unlike the original PSAR that reverses as soon as the price HITS the PSAR. I look at both PSARs, this gives me a much better feeling of what the market is doing and where I should put the stops. I usually put the initial stop loss using the modified PSAR, and then as soon as the price moves in my direction swith to the original PSAR. Or I can use an average of both... No 2 trades are the same so I try not to have a rigid rule regarding my exits. A mostly mechanical system with a bit of price action analysis is much better than a pure mechanical system, in my opinion
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  #2129 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpaterso View Post
Hi Boca,

Nice to see YOU here again (the thread's gone very quiet of late and I don't see any of our 'old mates' around any more either). Anyway, it's a pleasure (keeping the thread 'up to date') (and it's a 'whole lot easier' to do now that I've got my ADSL back)!!!

Yup, I'm doing OK now i.e. I've think I've learned a lot and I have spent many, many, many hours getting to know Wilder's systems and indicators 'inside and out' and they are working for me. It'll be a long time before I recover last years losses but hey: I'm still 'in the game' and still as dedicated as ever to this business after all that and that's what counts (to me anyway)!!! If you do decide to buy the book (which I OBVIOUSLY HIGHLY recommend that you do) remember that I arranged for them to give any babypips.com members a discount so be sure to email me for the code if you decide to purchase it. I'll tell you this much though: it's 'worth it's weight in Gold' to me!!!
Thanks Dale,

I remembered what you said about discount on the book so will contact you when I am ready to buy. Cheers.
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  #2130 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PipAddict View Post
Sometimes the stops indicated by PSAR are so stupid that I just ignore them. This is usually caused by huge price spikes. On other occasions the stops are just perfect, especially in those long and well defined trends. PSAR is a useful little mathematical tool but adding a bit of human thinking to the mix will improve your system considerably. Trade longer time frames (daily if possible) so you can have all the time in the world to properly look at the chart.

... No 2 trades are the same so I try not to have a rigid rule regarding my exits. A mostly mechanical system with a bit of price action analysis is much better than a pure mechanical system, in my opinion
Some nice words on the PSAR there PipAddict and I agree with most of what you are saying.

Thanks
Boca
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