Let's get real...

[jsese]

I have been reading posts and systems and claims and have to come to a moment of epiphany in my trading. I must be no good at this because I, being completely disciplined in my strategy, using no more than 2% risk on any trade, having a 64% win ratio, and never getting emotional in my decisions, have never been able to post the kinds of results I see on some people make.
Let me say this, I am a newbie to forex. That doesn't mean that I am a newbie to trading. Over the last 10 years I have traded for Morgan Stanley, Salomon Smith Barney, and started my own hedge fund in 2002. I worked at tradestaion for a brief period as well. I know trading, but I am just getting into FOREX. Diversification is KEY in the long run.
That being said, I will be completely honest here. I trade $50,000 in FOREX. I stick religiously to 2% rule and never hold trades over night. I have 64% win loss ratio and with all that I average between 250 and 300 pips a month. This represents between 5% and 6% gains a month. Based on what I have read, this is embarrasing and by no means advertising.

Now I read post of people making 2000 pips a day, or 4500 pips a month. Ok, I believe it. I don't doubt anyone, it doesn't bother me that I make less. But what I don't see is anyone saying what kind of risks are being taken to achieve that? is that just a one time thing? Off how much capital is that being achieved. What about drawdowns?

See here's the thing, In stocks (or any business for that matter), if you were netting 20%-25% a year consistantly..you are elite. Hell, if anyone if these EA systems make the kind of dough they promise, then there would be no trader at any of the big firms and a bunch of computers would do all the trading saving the company ALOT of money.

1200 pips a day off $5000? Consistantly? You will have $2.5 million dollars at the end of the year? ANYONE...ANYONE? If you are pulling that off, call George Soros (if you don't know who he is look him up) and he'll give you a job.

It is ok to tell me simply that I suck at this. I won't be offended. I will keep doing what I do and DEMO new things to see if I find something better.
I want to hear reality. Long term results, facts about money management, growth of a portfolio over time. Not I made a Billion FUfillion pips today!

I am sure everyone keeps trading journals here where they have accurate figures on themselves so anwering to this isn't a big chore.

Or you can all ignore me..that works too.

Take care

[rhodytrader]

You've hit on exactly why talking about pips is a completely meaningless exercise. Unless two traders are trading exactly the same way, there's no basis for comparisson. Start talking risk adjusted returns and you'll get my attention.

I have actually see a system vendor promoting results in which they aggregated the pips from multiple simultaneous open pair positions in the total. What a joke!

If you can make 5-6% per month consistently you're crushing the vast majority of forex traders.

[mytwopips]

Yeah, don't look at it as pips but return. One mans ten pips may be far more valuable than another mans fifty on the same account size.

There are huge returns to be had in Forex, but the downside could be how you make them. Will it come back and bite you?

There are many different flavors of risk. You have to pick your favorite flavor and stick to it.

[Andrewunknown]

Originally Posted by jsese

I have been reading posts and systems and claims and have to come to a moment of epiphany in my trading. I must be no good at this because I, being completely disciplined in my strategy, using no more than 2% risk on any trade, having a 64% win ratio, and never getting emotional in my decisions, have never been able to post the kinds of results I see on some people make.

Jsese,
With the institutional and retail experience you have, you've no doubt come across a fact about traders that transcends whatever instrument they're trading: many (not all, but many) of those making claims to exceptional profits are not making consistently exceptional profits, nor are they representing their trading activity with complete transparency. The psychological motivation for this selective coverage is pretty simple, really: ego: supporting it, guarding it, nurturing it and praising it. That doesn't mean there aren't those who humbly go about trading each day, week and month and do very well; but typically they aren't loudly advertising their performance or quite as self-confident as this other class of egotistical traders. As you're well aware, it's a tiny sub-set of very successful traders that post their performance for the world to see; most of them do what they do, keep a low profile on the Internet and quietly grow their accounts to very impressive values.

Originally Posted by jsese

I stick religiously to 2% rule and never hold trades over night. I have 64% win loss ratio and with all that I average between 250 and 300 pips a month. This represents between 5% and 6% gains a month. Based on what I have read, this is embarrasing and by no means advertising.

Your profits shouldn't be embarrassing, and their contrast with those claiming massive gains shouldn't dissuade you from maintaining what is most valuable: the plan that you're rigorously sticking to. With that as a foundation, you can look in other directions for ways to improve.

Originally Posted by jsese

Now I read post of people making 2000 pips a day, or 4500 pips a month. Ok, I believe it. I don't doubt anyone, it doesn't bother me that I make less. But what I don't see is anyone saying what kind of risks are being taken to achieve that? is that just a one time thing? Off how much capital is that being achieved. What about drawdowns?

2000 pips a day? How are they counting them? 100 pips on 5 mini lots each opened separately with a separate TP may be counted as 500 pips by some (signal services like to advertise by representing historical performance this way). Is this person making hundreds of pips each day net? There's a whole host of questions to ask to deconstruct these types of claims. You're questions above are good points to start with: what kind of risk went along with making that many pips in one day because it's likely they have trades open on quite a few pairs, how often do they do it (e.g. +500 pips each day?)? If they make 2000 pips trading 10 units (1/1000th of a mini lot) they haven't earned enough to fill up their gas tank. And yeah: what happens on a bad day, or how many of those are there? And how long have they been making that number of pips consistently? Probably they're going to be light on these details.

Originally Posted by jsese

1200 pips a day off $5000? Consistantly?

1200 pips? Trading a mini lot? That's almost 25% per day. Does this claim have any credibility? No. It can be done (well 25% in a day, anyway), but how many days consecutively before you blow up your account? Ask around: the vast consensus of traders who are the least bit sensible will call this ludicrous. You're right to doubt.

Originally Posted by jsese

It is ok to tell me simply that I suck at this. I won't be offended. I will keep doing what I do and DEMO new things to see if I find something better. I want to hear reality. Long term results, facts about money management, growth of a portfolio over time. Not I made a Billion FUfillion pips today! I am sure everyone keeps trading journals here where they have accurate figures on themselves so anwering to this isn't a big chore.

You don't suck, based on the details you've provided. As you know, 5-6% per month is an outstanding return that dwarfs many of the "best" in the business, whether institutional or retail. But, could you potentially clear more than 250-300 pips/mo.? Sure; at the same time, your win ratio is comfortably high that you could perhaps bump up your position sizing. Tell us a bit about what methodology you use to trade.

And the journal threads on forums, just like on stock forums, are a very mixed bag: some are honest, some are not; and if anyone is around who knows what they're talking about, the dishonest will probably be revealed as such. Get a feel for different people, keep tabs on their threads, and you'll find those who are genuinely successful.

Best wishes to you,
Andrewunknown

[andyfx]

I take it this post is based on my days returns.

1) sorry for sharing my excitment about my new system.
2) 1 lot per pair open. Why pay more spreads? I am not OZFX.
3) Not ego, Just not pub talk either. Thought the odd success story might cheer people up.
4) Why cant people just say well done for once?

Come on people we are all in the same boat. At least i thought.

[jsese]

Andrew, I agree with everything you are saying. As a matter of fact I was hoping that this was the kind of thing that would be posted. Not for me. I was being sarcastic when I said that 5- 6 % is embarrasing. I've heard a great deal of claims and miracle strategies and blah blah blah. Here is the main reason I posted this:
Many people are trying to get into trading. Whether it be currency or stocks, or commodities, or options. It has an allure that sparks interest. Most people don't know how or where to begin. They search google for differnt web sites and get a slew of information that many get overwhelmed with and run for the hills from the get go. Those that stick to it, may come accross this site. By mere accident (as I did) or link to link to link and blam your in pre school and getting such great information that you have solid foundation with which to get started. Hell I went through the preschool and learned alot of different things I didn't apply in my trading for 10 years.

So with that in mind, I believe this site to be an excellent source of information and believe that people should get as much TRUTH as possible here. If someone is a TRUE newbie, where they are just looking to find their niche, I don't want this to be one more of those places that steers people into the belief that this is easy and that it doesn't require sacrifice.

The truth is there are ups and downs. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes you would rather work at McDonalds just to know how much your gonna make in advance. Sometimes you long for a company paid health insurance plan that would havev covered your 3 child's operation. Paid Vacation.

Yes there is alot of freedom. But as they say: freedom isn't free. there's a hefty f'n fee. And you won't get it with claims of 2000 pips a day. And you won't get it by setting a computer to do it for you while you drive a ferrari in Italy.
So I encourage anyone to post the reality of trading. The lack of sleep in currency if you are eastern standard time and trading from 3 am to noon. the having money in the bank but nont being able to spend any of it because you never know when that bad stretch of trades is coming. And it's coming. It all evens out at the end but you have to plan and work.

Anyway I am going off on a rant nonw..so I will continue to learn from those who know more than I do and hopefully teach a few who knonw less.

Take care everyone.

[andyfx]

Originally Posted by jsese

Andrew, I agree with everything you are saying. As a matter of fact I was hoping that this was the kind of thing that would be posted. Not for me. I was being sarcastic when I said that 5- 6 % is embarrasing. I've heard a great deal of claims and miracle strategies and blah blah blah. Here is the main reason I posted this:
Many people are trying to get into trading. Whether it be currency or stocks, or commodities, or options. It has an allure that sparks interest. Most people don't know how or where to begin. They search google for differnt web sites and get a slew of information that many get overwhelmed with and run for the hills from the get go. Those that stick to it, may come accross this site. By mere accident (as I did) or link to link to link and blam your in pre school and getting such great information that you have solid foundation with which to get started. Hell I went through the preschool and learned alot of different things I didn't apply in my trading for 10 years.

So with that in mind, I believe this site to be an excellent source of information and believe that people should get as much TRUTH as possible here. If someone is a TRUE newbie, where they are just looking to find their niche, I don't want this to be one more of those places that steers people into the belief that this is easy and that it doesn't require sacrifice.

The truth is there are ups and downs. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes you would rather work at McDonalds just to know how much your gonna make in advance. Sometimes you long for a company paid health insurance plan that would havev covered your 3 child's operation. Paid Vacation.

Yes there is alot of freedom. But as they say: freedom isn't free. there's a hefty f'n fee. And you won't get it with claims of 2000 pips a day. And you won't get it by setting a computer to do it for you while you drive a ferrari in Italy.
So I encourage anyone to post the reality of trading. The lack of sleep in currency if you are eastern standard time and trading from 3 am to noon. the having money in the bank but nont being able to spend any of it because you never know when that bad stretch of trades is coming. And it's coming. It all evens out at the end but you have to plan and work.

Anyway I am going off on a rant nonw..so I will continue to learn from those who know more than I do and hopefully teach a few who knonw less.

Take care everyone.

Well if i have learnt 1 thing it is how NOT to enter a forum discussion, apopogies for those who got the wrong idea. I was kind of hoping to bring s little bit of hope to others new to Forex and reassure them that the work will pay off.
Keep pippin people!

[jsese]

Originally Posted by andyfx

I take it this post is based on my days returns.

1) sorry for sharing my excitment about my new system.
2) 1 lot per pair open. Why pay more spreads? I am not OZFX.
3) Not ego, Just not pub talk either. Thought the odd success story might cheer people up.
4) Why cant people just say well done for once?

Come on people we are all in the same boat. At least i thought.

Andy, By no means am I bashing you. No way man. I really do hope that it goes well for you. I hope that trend continues and you achieve what you want. All I am saying is that you must be carefull. If it is making that king of return..then it is risking simething. Risk and return go hand in hand. No free rides.
Please by all menas..post more often. Let us all know how it is going. But be hones when you do. If the drawdown comes post it. If your get stuck in a losing trade post it. If you decide that it works for you after 3 months..by all menas share that info. We all want to better ourselves and find more lucrative systems. I want people to succeed, but all I say is LET'S KEEP IT REAL IN THE POSTS so people who are learning can get an accurate depiction of our passion for trading.

Sorry if you thought this was directed at you. And if I came accross as harsh I apologize.

[Andrewunknown]

Originally Posted by jsese

Many people are trying to get into trading. Whether it be currency or stocks, or commodities, or options. It has an allure that sparks interest. Most people don't know how or where to begin. They search google for differnt web sites and get a slew of information that many get overwhelmed with and run for the hills from the get go. Those that stick to it, may come accross this site. By mere accident (as I did) or link to link to link and blam your in pre school and getting such great information that you have solid foundation with which to get started. Hell I went through the preschool and learned alot of different things I didn't apply in my trading for 10 years.

Yep; God willing that every forex newbie would make their way here before they are taken in by the hype somewhere else.

Originally Posted by andyfx

I take it this post is based on my days returns.

1) sorry for sharing my excitment about my new system.
2) 1 lot per pair open. Why pay more spreads? I am not OZFX.
3) Not ego, Just not pub talk either. Thought the odd success story might cheer people up.
4) Why cant people just say well done for once?

Come on people we are all in the same boat. At least i thought.

Andy,
I wasn't directing my post at yours - in fact, I didn't see your thread about 1200 pips in one day until after I wrote my post - I was simply responding to jsese. And I wouldn't presume to accuse you of ego-serving claims; but with your experience as a stock trader, you are probably aware of to what I'm referring. If you can make 1200 pips in one day and not give it all back but continue to build on it, my hat's off to you.

One thing you might consider is issuing a caveat when posting such a successful day (that would get anyone excited) is that 1) 1200 pips is not representative of what happens every day or even most days, and 2) that trade and money management are very important skills to attain. There are some general trade management rules that seem to be represented on your screenshots; but keep in mind those who are unfamiliar with all of that will have a very difficult time understanding what safeguards you seem to have had in place (assuming there; I didn't look to closely) on your trades.

[andyfx]

Originally Posted by jsese

Andy, By no means am I bashing you. No way man. I really do hope that it goes well for you. I hope that trend continues and you achieve what you want. All I am saying is that you must be carefull. If it is making that king of return..then it is risking simething. Risk and return go hand in hand. No free rides.
Please by all menas..post more often. Let us all know how it is going. But be hones when you do. If the drawdown comes post it. If your get stuck in a losing trade post it. If you decide that it works for you after 3 months..by all menas share that info. We all want to better ourselves and find more lucrative systems. I want people to succeed, but all I say is LET'S KEEP IT REAL IN THE POSTS so people who are learning can get an accurate depiction of our passion for trading.

Sorry if you thought this was directed at you. And if I came accross as harsh I apologize.

No need to apologise, I now know that is is probably not the best way to enter a forum site, so my apologies. I have spent a huge amount of hours with my head in many forums. And everytime i saw a post from a new live trader talking of success it brought a smile to my face.

I was simply trying to do the same. I to use very firm MM and Psycology when trading. This is how i was so shocked when i made my final check this afternoon. I have never seen a post with that many pips on it!

I know people say that Pips mean nothing. Well i disagree totally. Weather i had a 1$ lot size or a 100$ it means that you are in profit, no matter what size. And this is a very hard place to be consistantly as i understand.

I will keep you informed and everything i will post will and is totally straight down the line. Including posts with 1200 pip losses. Lets hope not though.

So heres to learning.