I keep reading where people do okay doing demo, but then blow up real money account

Okay, so the title says it.

I’ve read numerous, numerous posts about people who do okay and even make ‘money’ when they’re trading in demo accounts but when they start trading real money… Poof

I’m totally a newb, I’m still in babypips school, taking my time, I’m in no rush, haven’t even opened a demo account yet, but I’m reading posts between lessons and this seems like a common theme of demo success, real money failure.

What are the reasons for this? What’s the difference between the two that would account for such a difference in success?

Thanks for any advice.

What do you think the reason for “this” is?

Jake

Thanks for the reply, Jake.

Okay, total guesses. In the little I’ve read, I’ve read warnings about margin and margin calls, knowing little I assumed maybe the demo accounts didn’t have this issue. I’ve also seen mentions of slippage - never having papertraded I’m not sure if this is simulated in paper trading, but if not, that could be a factor.

Other than those two thoughts, I’m blank.

Hi Craig,

Say on a demo, you see an ‘ok’ setup or think “i’d like to be long here”… position size doesn’t really matter, the loss doesn’t really matter, because you can go to the brokers site & get another demo! :slight_smile:

On a real account, when you start to size your positons etc, you set your 1R loss as say $50 or $100 or any amount, suddenly, the “loss” on a trade is equal to something, rent, food, drinks, etc…

Same goes for being in a profit, a PT might be at $300, but price is in profit $100, it’d be nice to bank the $100! But price could retrace and hit our stop, move the stop to B/E? What if price retraces, hit the stop then goes into profit?

Basically, your brain starts doing loops once it’s real money! :slight_smile:

There are little-to-no emotional connections to the trading capital in a demo account.

Check out this trading psychology and the differences between demo and live written by my buddy Dr. Pipslow: 3 Psychological Differences between Demo and Live Trading | Forex Blog: Pipsychology

Show me a consistent winning Trader on a live account and put him on a demo account and He will do the same consistency… so the only problem from being a consistent winner on a demo to being a loser on a live account is the trader’s Discipline. It has nothing to do with the money being demo or live account last time i checked it was all digitized. If the Trader knows how to trade and win [U]consistently[/U] and not by just thinking its a good setup or hoping but actually making decisions from experience and trader discipline on a demo account why would he do anything but win consistently on a live account. The Trader still has to do the same amount of work. Its like saying now the work is harder to do since they are gonna give you a pay check and someone can rob you outside the bank when you go to cash it. No one thinks of that while doing the work. Instead if you are a real pro you enjoy doing the work and find satisfaction in it and the money comes second. As for the the ones who do good on demo and then blows up a real account they have no consistency at all to begin with and they only ventured to a live account under false pretenses because part of being able to be a Professional trader is to be liberated from Fear and Greed which move the market.

Unfortunately many people lie to themselves in forex. When a live account is traded then you only have one chance. When you trade demo accounts, you can throw away accounts until you get the right one. You can take big bets to get yourself out of a hole. If it blows up, you can simply restart. I haven’t seen anyone in my time on the forums trade a demo account for longer than 3 months consistently (I think I was one of the longest demo cases when I first started). Most demo accounts I see are less than a month. The market is always changing - a strategy will work well for a month and make demo money. With a live account you will trade through several conditions where the strategy does not work, and you make losses. With a demo account, you will just throw it away and start again for 2-3 weeks.

I simply won’t go live until all aspects of my business are proven reliable. My strategy, emotions, consistency, and profit.
In just over a year and a half I’m on my 3rd demo account, all starting with 1k, like I will be going when I go live.
Been doing ok now, my latest account, since feb, at just over $800 now.
I refuse until all things are proven. I am learning. And what eats me is how long it is taking. …oh well.
If it will take 5 yrs, then so be it.

Mike

+1+1+1 :60: Only thing I disagree with “him” you didn’t include the ladies, same goes for them.

100% agree

Most of the responses so far have related to differences in performance due to emotions and discipline . . . So what if you’re using a totally mechanical strategy? Then there would be no difference whatsoever between how a sim and how a live account was traded.

One difference (and this depends upon the average profit per trade, which is typically related to the frequency of trading) is in how sim software fills limit orders. You probably use these for profit targets, and you possibly also use them for entries. In a sim account, the orders will be filled when price trades at the limit price, whereas with a real account many of these orders will not be filled. Added to this, your limit orders will be adversely selected; that is to say that all your losers (where price must, by definition, trade through your order and fill it) will still occur, but many would-be winning trades (specifically those where you pick a top or bottom exactly, to the tick) will never be filled.

All of this, though it might seem like an insignificant detail of market microstructure, can turn a strategy that is profitable in simulation into one that haemorrages money in a real account.

Hope that helps!

Nick

As you said there are so many new traders who were doing good on demo and fail on real trading. The reason is simple; you are not really trading on demo, no trades has being placed on the market, it is just playing with virtual money where you have nothing to lose. On the other hand trading on real account actually include your real money, money which you can lose so easy and fest if you don’t know what you are doing.

So, it’s [I]mostly[/I] a two-fold thing of either not really trading demo correctly / long enough, and the psychological change when real money is on the line.

Thank you for your responses, everybody.

one of the reasons this issue has peaked of late could be that there are quite a few brokers who demo their demo accounts all the way…that is they differ widely from the real accounts or so the urban myth goes. But the reality is that nearly all demo accounts will vary in some aspect from a live trading account, and there are even a few negative reports regarding some brokers playing with the demo, gulling their customers to going live with big accounts and the rest plays out…

Bottom line a demo account is great for a practice run for a new strategy, great for newbies to learn the ropes but for real experience, you need to go live, with a small acc, pref once you have learnt all there is to learn for beginners…good luck.

What nick said…and this is why scalping is enough to make all your hair fall out, sans the actual scalp though that has been known to happen in a few cases - just kidding.

I thought I’d return to this thread and follow up on my previous post with something a little more solid . . .

Below I’ve attached a test showing returns for a market-making strategy. I’ve used the ES futures contract here rather than a forex pair, just because I know this is a market where I know how the strategy will perform. The market is irrelevant to the point I’m making - you can run similar tests of your own for the FX pairs or currency futures you trade.

Take a look at the ten day return:


That return is what you could expect in virtual money from a SIM trading account. Now take a look at the next chart, which shows the return you could expect if you impose a ‘worst case fill’ scenario on the SIM:


It’s an unfortunate example for illustrating the point I’m trying to make because the strategy still made money over the past ten days. However, over a longer period, it would not.

What would ACTUALLY happen if you or I were to trade this strategy with real money in a live account?

The answer is that the outcome would lie somewhere between the two returns that I have shown (which over the long run is saying that it would lie between making some money and losing some money - an equity curve that chops around break-even).

So this is one of the problems with SIM trading - unrealistic fills. It’s also why anyone attempting to make the market needs to have a very keen understanding of market micro-structure for the product they trade.

Hope that helps!

Nick

I so much agree,If there is a pocket up there in my mind,then sure this is there :slight_smile:

Do anyone here have good EA and could drawdown about 30% or more??
I’m searching for my demo contest in Liteforex broker. Making money in forex is really interesting.

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People vary hugely in the extent to which the psychological differences between demo accounts and real-money accounts affect their behaviour, but for some (and quite often, I think, the ones who are least prepared for it), these factors are clearly hugely significant.

And then there’s also the (less often discussed) selection-bias problem, which I’ll try to explain with an analogy.

You’re a pharmaceutical company, and you’ve spent a few tens of millions researching and developing a new treatment for condition X, which you now want to bring to market. Among the hurdles you have to pass is the production of some double-blind, randomised clinical trials showing that your new product works better than the standard, already-available, lower-cost equivalents. So you set about commissioning a whole series of clinical trials.

To successfully negotiate the various administrative requirements, you need at least one independently audited clinical trial result of sufficient size for it to be known (according to the industry-standard, pre-defined statistical parameters) that its result shows with 95% certainty (or “p<0.5”, as statisticians say) that the outcome-difference demonstrated is actually due to the the superiority of the product itself, and not due to chance or random findings.

Simplifying slightly, if your new drug is actually worse than the currently available one, then out of every 20 clinical trials you commission, on average, [U]one[/U] will still [I]apparently[/I] demonstrate that it’s better. That’s the one you’ll (perhaps) publish, and submit to the regulatory authorities to get your product license.

Traders often do something very similar, on demo accounts.

But it’s themselves they’re fooling, rather than a country’s regulatory authorities.

They try 20 different methods (or one method 20 times, with only slight variations) and they eventually (perhaps even well before 20 attempts) get one that “apparently works” and they think to themselves “This is the one: now I’ve cracked it” and open a real account and begin trading the method with real money. And guess what? It often doesn’t work, because their 95% certainty wasn’t really enough, and they fooled themselves in that the results, which [B]appeared[/B] to prove a causative correlation between the method and the outcome, were actually random all the time … [I]however methodically they tested it[/I].

So, there’s the additional problem that something that worked well on demo doesn’t work so well (i.e. loses money) on a real-money account, simply because what looked like “evidence” was actually random.

Nicholas Nassim Taleb has discussed this whole syndrome - including with specific reference to trading (that’s his own professional background) - in his hugely important book [I]Fooled By Randomness[/I].

People wanting to avoid this [U]very common[/U] scenario will benefit from reading Michael Harris’s book [I]Profitability and Systematic Trading[/I].