So you want to become a trader? Some useful thoughts

I have been looking at a few posts and there is a general theme of FX is too difficult to make money or a damn right scam or some other excuse about the broker. This is actually very disturbing because it highlights the share volume of people who have no intention of becoming traders, rather they are looking for some extra income. Not that it is a bad thing but trading is a profession while it appears accessible you must make this choice based on careful planning.

So hopefully this serves as useful sign post guide by no means should you follow this but I think a lot of people who are thinking about it seriously have some constructive info, I will be as detailed as possible. Some of these steps I circumvented but it made my learning curve steeper and I did make a few mess ups along the way but they are worth considering.

[B]To quit or not to quit your job? [/B]

This is a common question when becoming a trader. I never had to go through this dilemma, I became an enterpreneur in 2006 after working for Accenture. I studied economics but initially never had interest as such in being a trader, didn’t fancy 70hr weeks at JP Morgan, so opted for consulting. I do a lot with properties so I did have a job but not in the sense of a 9-5 and I have been able to trade around my job since 2009. The downside is I traded very little and made on average 30% year on year in FX and about 2-5% in equities. Upside is with that level trading you will always make money. Last year I decided that this year I will go full time and have been trading more or less full time since September, it is going well so far. I think it is worth deciding if you want to be a trader or not before making the plunge because at some point you will start to feel unsatisfied with your day job and spouses and friends will quickly question your new habit this is because the media has programmed them to see markets as difficult, jargon filled, gambling, risky and deceptive, they are even seperate financial channels. So this will be the most serious decision you make aside from your the purchase of your home. To conclude, trading is a profession so don’t quit your job till you have the proper education and money to cover living expenses for 3 months and at least 2-5k for initial account dependent on skill, if you are thinking equities or futures, 10k may be a better idea. Till then hold fire.

[B]Do I need a mentor? [/B]

This for me is the most rediculous notion. The answer is No… If you learn better in the classroom then you should pay for a course, there so many trading firms offering this for all instruments and markets, so that will be an option. If you are like me and can’t stand classrooms then you should get books on trading, Edwin Le Ferve, Jack D Schwager are all excellent authors and a great place start. Technical analysis is really broad, I suggest narrowing your focus price action and volume analysis and if you are good with money management some of the ideas around how to manage a trade will come to you naturally. The rest is down to how much you want to learn, hence it is best to do as your main line of work. This forum and many others are littered with questions on algos that can deliver returns (they don’t exist). Just this week I was having a discussion with an FX Options and futures quant trader who was telling me they no longer trade Euro dollar, Cable or any majors instead they focus on Yeng pairs and exotics…Why? Their million dollar algo stoped delivering a return post 2012. Yet there are thousands selling indicators and algos claiming to deliver gravity defying returns. The truth is algos will never work not now, not in the future. However banks run algos to make the market rather than to trade, it is impossible for people to service all those buy and sell orders that come in at the retail level so algos do it. Humans still process block millions of dollars as an algo cannot process such a large order without crashing. To conclude a mentor is not necessary.

[B]
What kind of broker should I use? [/B]

I had the misfortune of trying all the broker types, I opened an account with easy forex, XM, IG, FXCM and eventually FXPro. I was completely satified with FXPro and XM. FXCM are okay as Jason will swiftly get on issues I mention so they have a good rep around here and FXCM is by far the most popular UK and US broker. I was specifically interested in non-dealing desk, STP and ECN brokers. Cutting through the jargon, dealing desk brokers are easy to spot, they usually have wider spreads, have minimum stop loss levels for e.g. your stops must be 25 pips or 10 pips, etc. Dealing desk brokers essentially market make and the most likely to go bust but this scenario is rear. I would avoid these, it is possible to make money but it isn’t economical for you. Non dealing desk, STP, ECN are all technically the same with minor differences. NDD usually pass your orders on with some minimal dealer intervention (they will however deny it), STP or straight through processing send your orders straight to the bank to be filled so no intervention at all but charge spreads like NDD and DD brokers. The last ECN electronic communication network promises some anonymity in that your orders go into what is known as a dark pool were orders just get filled in blocks. There is normally a major bank at the heart of this but to be honest all of this could be bull, no one knows for sure not even the so called professionals. Truth is you just want your order filled and at reasonable cost. ECN platforms have tight spreads 0.1 pips and charge a commission for handling your order normally $13 per 100k contract, in my opinion the advantage is the bid and ask price are almost the same. To conclude any broker is fine as long as they are NDD, ECN or STP. Dark Pool Liquidity Definition | Investopedia

[B]Should I get a seperate data feed like the pros? [/B]

This is the biggest piece of nonsense that has come from the equity world where all orders and data coe from a central exchange so speed to the exchange is a fact and not all feeds are equal and most of the exchanges charge for real time exchange information and extended trading ours. In the FX market this is not relevant as there is no central exchange. If however you rely on technical analysis you should get a good charting package, esignal and trading view are the better ones. Initially MT4 should be able to handle. If you have an ECN like me MT4 is not compatible so you the broker would have a customized platform. Don’t waste money on feeds unless you need it.

[B]What should I trade?[/B]

Trading should not be limited to just FX. The reason you are here is because the level of intermediaries that are involved have increased the marketing of FX against other products. You should consider the return potential on what you are trading. It is possible to trade successfully for a year or two and increase a stake and perhaps start to diversify into higher return derivatives like futures or assets like equities, futures have less trade costs, higher margin requirements normally about $5,000 and a maintenance margin requirement. The use of margin is a little different from FX. Futures Margins | The Options & Futures Guide. The most important thing to consider when trading a market is the average true range of the market for e.g. Euro dollar has an ATR of about 100 pips you could make roughly $600 or loose $600 per day on a standard 100k contract (you will never get the entire range), Gold has an ATR of about 30 to 40pts per day, so you could make or loose $2000 per day on a standard 100 Oz contract. In the end if you want to make money, you need to have some money first. It is the reason why the poor unemployed are likely to stay that way.

[B]What is the best strategy?[/B]

If you have ever served in the military, you would be familiar with the idea of point and shoot. In an engagement you have no chance of seeing the enemy, let alone make a calculated shot that confirms the enemies death, instead you just direct your fire in a 30 round magazine you are bound to hit something or overwhelm the enemy till they retreat. that would be a successful engagement. Like in the military strategy rarely works. What you need is a plan in the event of an engagement, this will eventually lead to strategic decisions like flanking maneuverer or calling fast air or artillery fire support on the enemy. So in trading we need a business plan that will focus on our mentality, our attitude, money management plan, exit strategy, conditions for enetering trades, etc. I can use Fibonacci, you can use RSI’s and so on but what tells us apart is our plan when faced with danger in the market or when we are engaged in a trade. This is why soldiers will always make good traders. In my opinion there is no best strategy just your plan of engagement. You can literally go on youtube get a few videos, pick a strategy that suits you and you are ready but without a plan it is all useless. So focus on your plan.

[B]
Is it true that many people fail in FX?[/B]

Brokers have been banding a lot of statistics around i.e. 90% fail, etc. Truth is in the 80’s a lot people use to be involved in equities and the 87 crash changed the perspective on financial markets primarily because the US population had a bias to not going short, it was just not American. This is still the case. So the media reports market collapses as bad news. How is this bad news to a trader? My point is that many people still don’t understand what they want from the markets, they are in it because everyone else is, a bit like why everyone has an Iphone or a Mac (I have none by the way). Now, it looks good to tell your mates I trade the markets. Everyone gets what they want out of the market, this is reflected in the diverse opinions on markets. Some get wealth, some get satisfaction, some ego, some losses, some proof of life. In the end you will get what you want. So in my opinion it is unlikely more people will succeed in life than fail, what makes the markets different? 90% is arbitrary number to represent the majority.

[B]
Do I need 10k or 2k or 1k? [/B]

This an excellent question and many people will naturally disagree and say you over leveraged, etc. Those of us who are old enough to own houses understand the subprime crisis that spanned the western world. People certainly didn’t see the Folly in a 5% deposit. The FX and all other derivative makets offer leverage (I only call FX a derivative as I feel cash is really a derivative of Gold which is what it should be as currency should be backed by Gold). Moving on… The goal here is to become a trader so you need to start somewhere. If you won’t be happy asking someone to give you 10k to start trading, then don’t ask yourself for that. Money is not monopoly dollars so one must always treat it with respect. So it makes sense to start with 2 to 5k you can afford to loose. If you are serious about your profession, you would have studied prior to making this plunge, dare I say you would have tried a few demo accounts and understand your technical analysis and your market an instrument to fine tooth, to the point if someone woke you from sleep and quoted a price you can tell what instrument it is likely to be. This not only simulates the environment of making money from small amounts but also the pressure o trading for a living. If I gave my daughter 10k and said trade mini lots all day long I am sure she can remain solvent. My point is your 10k will soon become 5k maybe over a few years. The key is knowing how to trade not the bank balance.

I intend to keep updating this thread with more FAQ’s as they hit me but again, this my 4th contribution to this forum. Also if you have questions besides, where can I find a mentor? Please feel free to ask and I will gladly pass on my knowledge. remember you are on a journey that doesn’t end here.

Hope this helps. You can follow my ideas on this thread 301 Moved Permanently

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Wow, what a bunch of crap!

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[QUOTE=“d-pip;661974”]Wow, what a bunch of crap![/QUOTE]

I especially like the part where he says $2-5k account size is enough to start trading full time.

Would you like to explain why you think this, for the benefit of us noobies?

Yeah, enlighten us? I agree with the 2k thing though… sheesh

I expect people will disagree. I have been around here for some time not a huge fan of posting outside of my volume thread so but I do read around.

First off you won’t start trading before you know what to do. So many people trade for a living. The key is not large accounts. On this very forum a gentleman nearly blew 5k because he was refusing to close a bad trade. So one can blow 10k and make the same under capitalization excuse. I never said trading was easy but trading for coppers is different from trading for your meal and roof.

If you loose 1.5k as a straight drawdown you need a re-education. I have lost that much before took me 2 days no stop losses just simply hitting buy or sell on a news release then we were just having fun. 6 years on no chance, I worked hard to become a trader. So back to context you can start with 2k in FX but you need to first have a plan and second you need to be able to survive for 3 months without drawing from your trading account. However it seems the earlier steps before opening account ignored and everyone rushed to the 2k.

Don’t mind macro just wants to yank my chain. I have nothing but love for you.

Come on dpip!

You are welcome to disagree with a few things but crap you say. I doubt it… Just recounting common questions I wanted to know years ago. I am still around happily trading finally a fulltime professional trader. I can trade any market limited at the moment to futures, FX and equities.

I am pretty okay. Is it hard? Yes… I am however an Economist with a finance speciality so this is my world at the end of the day. Can’t speak for you.

[QUOTE=“emeraldorc;662000”] I expect people will disagree. I have been around here for some time not a huge fan of posting outside of my volume thread so but I do read around.

First off you won’t start trading before you know what to do. So many people trade for a living. The key is not large accounts. On this very forum a gentleman nearly blew 5k because he was refusing to close a bad trade. So one can blow 10k and make the same under capitalization excuse. I never said trading was easy but trading for coppers is different from trading for your meal and roof.

If you loose 1.5k as a straight drawdown you need a re-education. I have lost that much before took me 2 days no stop losses just simply hitting buy or sell on a news release then we were just having fun. 6 years on no chance, I worked hard to become a trader. So back to context you can start with 2k in FX but you need to first have a plan and second you need to be able to survive for 3 months without drawing from your trading account. However it seems the earlier steps before opening account ignored and everyone rushed to the 2k.

Don’t mind macro just wants to yank my chain. I have nothing but love for you.[/QUOTE]

Essentially what you are saying, by saying you can go full time with only $2k, is that you can make 200% gains every month consistently. Monthly income for middle class would be around $4k, so the 200% monthly return every month is just enough to obtain that lifestyle. So what do you think the odds are of someone be able to string together multiple 200% monthly gains consecutively for months and years on end?

[QUOTE=“emeraldorc;661970”]To conclude, trading is a profession so don’t quit your job till you have the proper education and money to cover living expenses for 3 months and at least 2-5k for initial account dependent on skill, if you are thinking equities or futures, 10k may be a better idea. Till then hold fire.
[/QUOTE]

I see you have desire to ruin the thread that was a really a sign post.

I can’t debate the merits of performance, each to his own. My simple point was if you can’t trade with 2k, you can’t trade with a million, 10k, etc. Every trading institution asks one simple question, “what do I get for my risk” I give you 2k you have to make me 6k in the next 3 months at the very least break even by the months end. What is the point otherwise? I am wasting my time and money. If I give you 10k I want 30k in the next 3 months. It is all about what do I get for my risk seeing you could lose all my money.

2k is at $1 is 2000 pips at $5 is 400 pips at $10 is 200 pips, 5k is even more. Are you telling me you will lose all my pips and you want more money? So the same idea applies if I am running my own account. I won’t risk 2k of my own money if I can’t make at least 6k back or even 2k break even. Put it is a savings account because when you take into account commissions and spreads and overnight swaps you actually throwing away cash.

Just trying to get new traders to think like traders rather than fun lovers who love gambling. Just my opinion though. I accept yours is different. I wish you success in your trading style.

Appreciate your post emeraldorc, I take all this ( including the arguments against it) as part of my learning. Keep up the posts

So the world of finance are becoming less reliant on these hi-frequency trading black-boxes nowadays?

If they are that has got to be a good thing, in turn of people getting jobs in that industry. More reliant on people and less on machines.

Emeraldorc I agree with you on the following…

[I]- “So this will be the most serious decision you make aside from your the purchase of your home.”

  • “Trading should not be limited to just FX.”
  • “The most important thing to consider when trading a market is the average true range of the market”[/I]

I agree with this one too but not for the same reason as you…

[I]- “Like in the military strategy rarely works.”[/I]
(The reason being because most people don’t have the required internal assets to develop the proper strategy, so they need to settle for a risk management centered approach. Risk management is a huge part of my skillset but strategy is key IMO. So yes strategy rarely works but when it does, it is the sign of an elite trader.)

I’m new to this so I’m not arguing but asking what your opinion of algorithms is based on? The two things that I first come to think of are: (1) Algorithms make the same decisions regardless of the amount and at least I assume that emotions - more than anything else - are the only change in trading behaviour as the amounts get bigger. (2) Computing power is increasing all the time and if IBM’s Watson can beat the best human Jeopardy players without difficulty, even fundamentals can in the not too distant future be quite understandable to an algorithm. An algorithm which already has all economic data and writings from the last couple of decades and receives new data as instantly as can be when it’s fed with what all important players say as soon as a live broadcast is transcribed through speech recognition (which is already instantly doable).

I might add that algorithms the main reason why I’m concerned about my chances to eventually become a full-time fx trader. It might simply be the case that by the time I’ve learnt enough, humans will be unable to compete with algorithms and the computing power of big players will crush what anyone can run at home. It would of course affect all of us so are none of you full-time traders here concerned about that prospect?

No wonder you don’t make any money… All that time invested and you still have no alternative explanation. Like I said, you don’t have to follow it. I didn’t write it to please you.

I think you have ego problems… In any case this is not what forums are about, everyone can’t be right or wrong. It is simply a question of perceptions and beliefs, these equally get traded in the market. You have no evidence to contradict what I have said or confirm it. At this point it is just back and forth. Puzzled frankly why the hostility… Nevermind…

Good luck d-pip wish you many pips in future.

With all due respect my friend, You’re wrong when you say “at this point;” the back and fourth was after the 3rd post. However you are right about overall back and fourth. The lesson newbies and anybody who wishes to improve is in the Forex very little is black and white. The “for and against” in this thread is about opinions on trading method and money management, the hostility comes from people trying to make their opinions as facts when they are opinions.

Is the $4000 grand a month fact or opinion? Is the $2,000 to trade full time fact or opinion? Is to be a successful trader you have to publish your winnings, fact or opinion? Indicators are useless fact or opinion? You can’t make money scalping fact or opinion? 99.999999 lose money trading fact or opoinion? Of course they’re all opinions. I follow Don Miller and he would be the first to tell you , just because I did it, doesn’t mean all traders can do it or will fail.

All traders have to be careful not to confuse facts and opinions . . .of course that’s just my opinion. I wish you all good luck
Gp

So what happens when the development of these algorithm’s comes to a point when everyone says buy but none want to sell?

Thanks to all who have found the information useful. Again feel free to ask me any questions. To those who disagree, you are welcome to post evidence on the contrary.

To Sandman, Mrquickbuy and those with constructive questions, a good idea will be to read Flash boys from Michael Lewis. You can also check out zerohedge.com, they hate HFT and will give you a proper education. It is said HFT accounts for handling 60% of all orders (I can’t reference this as stats are always misleading), this was quote from a Goldman Sachs executive. Also it is helpful to note that HFT is general term for computerized order handling or taking system, quant type HFT systems naturally scalp the market based on some elaborate strategy. More info on HFT High-frequency trading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Since the flash crash of 2000 and the events of this year that costs Goldman close to a billion, the once pioneer of HFT is now deciding to reduce their HFT participation claiming the damn thing does not work. In the near future it is likely HFT will cause more issues and disrupt the system and regulation will intervene to limit its use but that is now just my opinion. On to the issue of retail trader type Algos, they are not really HFT and my point is they will always lose you money. Try them if you think I am kidding. I am sure many will testify to the snake oil salesmen who keep selling these.

To d-pip and globeMacro, I get I am not your cup of tea, I am blunt and just speak my mind. I have many friends and many not so good friends. That’s life. Nothing I have said in this post or any other defies logic, most my info comes from credible books or my understanding of Finance. In any case I am still happy with criticism just improve the thread by posting other useful stuff, how does attacking me help new traders? Most of what I said can be found in various sites accross the web with similar ideas.

To clarify the 2k thing which seem to be a real bone of contention. Do you trade a daily chart d-pip? Have you ever been stopped out twice in a row on a daily chart on one instrument? If the answer is yes then you shouldn’t be trading (I’ll explain).

Let’s take Cable… You have done careful analysis, put a position in a potential reversal zone and placed a stop 200 ticks ( $200, 10k, $400 20k) from your entry with a carefully planned exit at say from argument sake 400 ticks from entry ($400 10k lot, $800 20k lot), all things being equal you have beginners luck 30 days later you take profit is hit, bare in mind you could add to your winners or cover your position along the way. Now, 400 pips should take no more than 2 weeks to hit and that is conservative. You should realistically have $2,400 in your account if you took a single contract.

To illustrate here is a gold trade I took on the 9th of October. Note this is not proof of life so must not be considered a bid to convince new traders and D-pip that FX is easy, this is to help my example and years of experience has allowed the foresight to make such a trade had it not worked out would have lost lost roughly $900.
And Yes, I have more than 2k in my account and that is due to hard work.

FxPro XAUUSD D1 9w2wn | cTrader

This trade last 4 days R/R of 1-2 despite a planned first target 1240 and an extended of 1270, this prediction was on my other thread posted here. This was executed on a daily based on technical confirmations and fundamental changes, I closed out early because of a change in certain fundmanentals that proved wrong. Had I held the trade to target I would have even more today is only the 20th. Point is 2 successful trades is all I need to make in a month (simplified version) I will save spreads or commissions and of course brokers don’t like me very much. That is how a new trader should think.

My point to conclude is, it is not about how much money you start, every trade is relevant to account size and like starting any business, you can’t hope to start making killing tomorrow but you should have a survival budget independent of trading capital. It is all about how hard you capital can work for you, not you working for your capital, if this is not true then I suggest buy a T-bond or Gilt, get a savings account and tehy all can offer you in excess of 2% minus inflationary costs on your return. Why waste time trading FX or anything else if you can’t even make 10% on your capital every year?

Anyway folks I am a bit tired. Those who think I make sense, you are welcome. Those who don’t nevermind, each to his own.

[QUOTE=“emeraldorc;662212”]
To d-pip and globeMacro, I get I am not your cup of tea, I am blunt and just speak my mind. I have many friends and many not so good friends. That’s life. Nothing I have said in this post or any other defies logic, most my info comes from credible books or my understanding of Finance. In any case I am still happy with criticism just improve the thread by posting other useful stuff, how does attacking me help new traders? Most of what I said can be found in various sites accross the web with similar ideas.

To clarify the 2k thing which seem to be a real bone of contention. Do you trade a daily chart d-pip? Have you ever been stopped out twice in a row on a daily chart on one instrument? If the answer is yes then you shouldn’t be trading (I’ll explain).
.[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t matter how much you try explaining, going full time with a $2k account means you will have to turn a 200% account profit EVERY MONTH just to make $4k a month (barely middle class income). If you don’t think that defies logic then that is “interesting” to say the least.

Either you are just naive or stupid… Did I not say a survival budget is needed independent of trading capital? If you want to be a trader be one, you have to build your small account. Trading capital should not be what gives you teh confidence to trade. You will loose whatever amount if you can’t trade 2k, 10k, etc. 20% of a 2k account is the same as 20% on 10k account, you still need a extra money to cover living costs till your business grows.

Easy to tell those who are not traders rather forum lovers. Good luck mate! That’s why you will never be a trader. Glad you are entertaining on babypips. Hope you have a good job because you won’t be leaving anytime soon…