DD and NDD Brokers?

Hello again guys! I’m here again today with another confusing topic for me which is BROKERS. Or let’s rather say, types of brokers.

I’ve been reading a lot throughout the entire today about them but still quite can’t say I fully understand it.
The more I’m reading about it the more confused I get. Is there a simple way to explain how Dealing Desk and Non Dealing Desk brokers work? If you could help me with some practical examples I would appreciate it. Have been googling all day but haven’t find anything other than a “definition” which didn’t help a lot.

So far I only understand that DD (Market makers) do not show the real Interbank quotes on my trading platform and I’m basically at their mercy with price changes but other than that, I’m quite lost.

Appreciate any answers, have a nice evening!

Hello, lucashier

There are two major differences between the [B]dealing-desk (DD) broker business model,[/B] and the [B]non-dealing-desk (NDD) broker business model:[/B]

(1) the way retail prices are determined, and

(2) the execution method (that is, what happens after your position is opened).

[U]Dealing-Desk (DD) Brokers[/U]

B Pricing[/B]

Wholesale bank prices (prices offered to retail brokers by liquidity providers in the interbank network) are marked up by DD-brokers to yield retail prices, which are then offered to retail customers (meaning you and me). The mark-up is normally determined mechanically by a computer algorithm which factors in such things as market volatility, in order to provide the DD-broker with a desired level of profit.

Example: the bank offers the DD-broker a 1-pip spread on a particular pair, and the DD-broker adds a pip (or more) to each side of the bank’s wholesale price quote, offering their retail customers a 3-pip (or higher) spread. For instance, bank’s prices (BID and ASK) 1.5024/25; DD-broker’s prices (BID and ASK) 1.5023/26.

Bank spreads are not fixed — they can, and do, change in response to market conditions.

Similarly, the DD-broker’s retail mark-up can change — often in tandem with changes in the bank’s wholesale spread. These changes can be rapid and large, especially when major economic news is due to be released.

If a broker offers “fixed spreads”, it’s a sure sign that the broker is a DD-broker. Such spreads are possible only if the retail mark-up is large enough to cover the market risks (volatility, etc.) anticipated by the broker. When market conditions exceed the range which the “fixed spreads” can cover, brokers who offer such spreads typically resort to re-quotes and slippage to fend off unprofitable customer orders.

B Execution[/B]

When a retail customer opens a trade with a DD-broker, that broker is immediately put into a position (opposite to the customer) in which he (the broker) has market exposure.

Example: You open a LONG position in a particular currency pair; your DD-broker immediately acquires an equivalent SHORT position in that pair, because he takes [I]and holds[/I] the other side of your trade.

How long your DD-broker holds onto the other side of your trade determines the extent of his market exposure (to price movement in the pair you are trading), and ultimately determines whether his side of your trade produces a profit or a loss for him.

He might believe that you have entered the wrong side of the market, which means that you probably will suffer a loss. In this event, your loss will become your DD-broker’s profit. In order to capture this profit (from your loss), your DD-broker might choose to hold onto his side of your trade.

This creates the potential for a conflict of interest between you and your DD-broker, because he controls the BID and ASK prices on which your trade either survives or gets stopped-out. If you get stopped-out, your DD-broker — who has held onto his side of your trade — banks the profit which is the flip-side of your loss.

It is possible for a DD-broker to (1) use a market-sensitive formula (algorithm) for adding mark-ups to wholesale bank prices, but then (2) remain “blind” to the profit/loss position of his customers, thereby eliminating the possibility of manipulation of the BID or ASK price for the express purpose of making retail customers lose.

Oanda claims to operate exactly this way. Oanda readily admits to being a retail market-maker (which, most traders would say, is another name for a DD-broker), but Oanda claims “no dealing-desk intervention”. You have to read their explanation in order to parse that terminology. But, in short, it means that their algorithm determines retail mark-ups to the bank’s wholesale BID and ASK prices, and then Oanda maintains a “firewall” between their dealing-desk (the algorithm) and their customers’ accounts, precluding any manipulation of prices for their own gain.

A DD-broker who does not want to be exposed to the market risk associated with holding the other side of his customer’s trade can offset that risk by placing an identical trade upstream with the bank.

Example: You enter LONG one lot of USD/CAD, placing your DD-broker in a SHORT position, which he doesn’t want. He can enter LONG one lot of USD/CAD (trading with the bank), thereby reducing his overall market exposure to zero. He still holds the other side of your trade, but his side is offset (hedged).

[U]Non-Dealing-Desk (NDD) Brokers[/U]

B Pricing[/B]

Wholesale bank prices are passed directly to the NDD-broker’s trading platform, where they are offered to retail customers, [I]without a mark-up.[/I] A commission is charged by the NDD-broker as his compensation for the service he is providing. In this model, the customer’s transaction costs are (1) the bank’s spread, and (2) the NDD-broker’s commission. The bank’s profit is the bank spread, and the NDD-broker’s profit is the commission.

Bank spreads can widen (or narrow) due to market conditions, as in the DD model, above. But, the variation in [I]retail[/I] spreads is not nearly as great in this (NDD) model, as in the DD model, above.

In the NDD model (bank pricing + commissions), customer transaction costs, averaged over time, are generally equal to, or lower than, transaction costs in the DD model (bank pricing + retail mark-ups).

B Execution[/B]

When a retail customer opens a trade with an NDD-broker, that broker simultaneously opens an offsetting trade with the bank, such that the NDD-broker’s net market exposure is zero. When the retail customer’s position with the broker is closed, the broker’s offsetting position with the bank is simultaneously closed.

With this (NDD) model, there is no conflict of interest between customer and broker, because for the broker every downstream profit (from the customer) is offset by an upstream loss (to the bank), and vice versa.

When a retail customer opens a trade with a retail forex broker [I]— any type of broker —[/I] a two-party transaction is entered into in which the customer and the broker are counter-parties to each other. That relationship continues for the duration of the trade, regardless of what the broker might do to offset his side of the transaction.

For this reason, the CFTC (the U.S. regulator) refuses to refer to any forex broker as a “broker”. Instead, the CFTC insists that they are all “dealers”, because of this counter-party relationship. In fact, the CFTC invented a new designation for retail forex “brokers” — Retail Foreign Exchange Dealers (RFED’s).

I, for one, will continue to call them brokers.

Some NDD-brokers use loose terminology, implying that all of their customers’ trades are “handed off”, or “passed upstream” to the interbank. As the CFTC has made clear, this does not and cannot happen.
[I]The counter-party relationship between customer and broker cannot be transferred to a third party;[/I]
it can only be offset, to remove market (price) risk.

Well, I didn’t mean to write a book in response to your question, but it is what it is. I hope it’s helpful.

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Great post Clint. I saw this question last night and my exact thought was “looking forward to the response from Clint”.

You should write a book! By far the most clear and concise answers I’ve seen.

Hello Clint!

I can’t thank you enough for your effort!

Can I just have some questions clarified which popped in my head anyway?

  1. To this day I still thought there was some real/united FX quotes for any pair. Like the Interbank rate for EUR/USD is only one. Now, I hopefully understand correctly, that the Interbank consists of multiple institutions (banks etc.) and each one of them defines their own quotes based on whatever their reasons are - then the quotes are routed to brokers they’re cooperating with. The brokers then use these quotes to route them to their clients (you and me). In case of DD, they add a mark-up on the spread making it bigger. If I see quotes of 1.5023/26, my broker would actually see something like 1.5024/25. Now I’m a bit confused about the broker position. If I buy for 1.5026, my broker basically sells it to me for 1.5026? And then when I close the position my broker buys it back for the bid price? - I’m talking about the situation where the broker feels my trade should be a loss so he just takes the opposite side of my position without hedging. Now what happens if he wants to hedge my trade to be protected from risk? I buy for 1.5026, he sells it to me at 1.5026 automatically. So then he has to open a position with one of his liquidity providers Buying at 1.5025 (the rates he sees)? So basically he earns 1 pip and is protected from losing any money whatever direction the market goes. Do I understand correctly?

I’m sorry, I probably re-written what you just wrote in different words but I needed to write it myself to see if I understand.

Thanks for your time, Clint!

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Jezzode, thank you, sir.
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Everything you wrote above is correct.

There are dozens of liquidity providers, [I]most[/I] of which are mega banks in that consortium we call the interbank network. Here’s a short article about the interbank network by Kathy Lien, if you’re interested. This article is several years old, but much of the information is contains is still relevant.

The Foreign Exchange Interbank Market

Here is a table from [I]Euromoney[/I] showing the top 10 liquidity providers, ranked according to their shares of worldwide foreign exchange transaction volume, as of May 2016.

And here is a graphic posted recently by Jason Rogers showing the 17 [B](edit: 16)[/B] liquidity providers which stream prices to FXCM.

Typically, a broker’s computers capture — moment by moment — the best available BID price, and the best available ASK price, and these prices form the basis of the price quotes streamed to the broker’s retail customers. The best available BID price, and the best available ASK price, won’t [I]necessarily[/I] come from the same liquidity provider.

If you want to BUY, the price offered to you by your broker will be based on the best available bank ASK price — plus a retail mark-up if your broker is a DD broker, or plus a commission if your broker is an NDD broker.

If you want to SELL, the price offered to you will be based on the best available bank BID price plus mark-up or commission.

Let’s say you want to buy, and at that exact moment the best available [I]bank[/I] ASK price is 1.5025. And let’s say that your DD broker offers you an ASK price of 1.5026, which you take. You are now LONG at 1.5026. Your DD broker could have offset his (SHORT) side of your trade, but he decides not to offset, thinking you are going to lose and he can make a few dollars from your losing trade.

Later, you close your position. There are 3 possibilities: (1) you have earned a profit, (2) you have broken even, or (3) you have suffered a loss.

In each of these cases, [I]your profit or loss exactly equals your broker’s loss or profit,[/I] because he sold to you (when you opened your position) and he bought from you (when you closed your position). The bank was not involved in any way, and you and your broker were essentially involved in a zero-sum game with each other. Just to be clear, let’s walk through possibility (1), in which you have earned a profit. Then, you should be able to analyze the other two possibilities on your own.

Possibility (1) — you have earned a profit. Let’s say the retail price has moved from 1.5023/26 (where you bought) to 1.5043/46 (at which point you decide to sell). Your sell price is 1.5043, which is your broker’s BID price. (You always BUY at the ASK price, and SELL at the BID price.) You have earned a profit of 17 pips (1.5043 - 1.5026 = 17 pips).

Now, let’s figure out your broker’s profit/loss situation. If your DD broker held his side of your position without offsetting it, from the time you bought until the time you sold, then he effectively opened a SHORT position when he sold to you, and he covered that SHORT position by buying from you. As we said above, the bank is not involved in this trade in any way. Your DD broker (having held his side of your trade without offsetting it) has simply sold to you at your BUY price, and bought from you at your SELL price. Therefore, your profit of 17 pips = his loss of 17 pips.

You should be able to figure out your DD broker’s P/L situation in the case when you break even, and in the case when you take a loss.

Your broker SELLS to you at 1.5026 and simultaneously BUYS from the bank at 1.5025, earning 1 pip.

Let’s assume that prices rise, as in the example above to 1.5044/45 (bank’s wholesale prices) and 1.5043/46 (broker’s retail prices).

When you close your profitable LONG position, your broker will BUY from you at 1.5043 and simultaneously SELL to the bank at 1.5044, earning another 1 pip.

And that’s how your DD broker earns the 2 pips (1 pip each side) by which he marked up the bank’s wholesale BID/ASK prices.

On the other hand, if your broker were an NDD broker, there would be no retail mark-up of the bank’s BID/ASK prices. Your broker would earn ZERO pips from your trade, but he would earn a commission — typically quoted in dollars (or other account currency) per lot.

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Clint I really can’t thank you enough. Your explanations were worth of one month reading articles online. Nicely put and explained. I believe I understand it much better now! You can pat yourself on the back, haha. Have a nice day, man!

Dealing desk is a broker software which throw traders position together inside a broker platform. Means counterparty for you order is a trader which is a client of the same broker. Currently broker dropped the idea of using DD and act themselves as a counterparty for your orders.

You can easily recognize DD brokers if they offer:

  • fixed spreads
  • lower or sometimes zero slippage
  • guaranteed stop loss
  • bonuses
    I think that the fact that there is a conflict of interest with their clients is enough. But Clint explained it excellently in the above posts.