COT Report Analysis - a thread on market sentiment

Hi FE,

I was quoting Steve Briese from his book on COT. I think he is trying to make the point that in the COT there is much mis-information, he is thus listing the more common.

I had read William’s book first, there seemed to be answers but there were many more questions still in my mind. He gave great detail, for example, on reading Open Interest.

Briese answers many of the questions. He gives detailed answers on the control that each player category exercises, for example “They (commercials) control the overwhelming majority of the open interest in most markets”.

In his analysis of the common “Tip -always follow the commercials” as frequently attributed to Williams, Briese points out that “you had better have deep pockets”.

Briese suggests where such deep pockets are not required and yet we can follow the commercial action:-

“For most of us, better results will accrue from buying at the moment commercials QUIT buying (or moving short just as commercials STOP selling).
It is rare to see commercials stop buying before prices find a bottom, or to see them quit selling ahead of a top. I use the term ‘commercial capitulation’ to describe these rare events, which are the only occasions when it safe to safe to BUY WHILE COMMERCIALS ARE STILL BUYING.”

On the small speculator thing, Williams refers to the ‘great unwashed public’ I think was the term, and points out how often they have been wrong.

Briese points out the the non reportables include not only the public but also commercial and speculators alike, thus in his words their “net position pattern is a real mishmash”.

For me, after reading William’s book I couldn’t find value in the cot. Then when reading Briese’s book and seeing his final “mis-information tip” I had second thoughts.

"Tip - the cot is old news by the time it is read:

You would not have bought this book if you believed this tip. But for the record, even when the data was released only monthly, and 11 or 12 days after the fact, …I found the cot data frequently pointed out timely trading opportunities.

… you will, I hope, come to appreciate that analysing cot data in anticipation of gaining a trading edge is an attainable goal, but one that requires paying due attention to the details, and particularly to the nuances."

FE, The above tips, quotes and emphasis in both posts are not mine, they are Steve Briese’s, it is perhaps right that we discuss in this thread, in his preface he says:

" You can think of the cot as a sentiment indicator, but instead of opinion surveys, it is based on actual market positions of the largest futures traders. You can also think of it as a fundamental indicator, because it lets you know the market positions - and therefore the price outlook - of the firms who operate the cash markets and who use futures to hedge price risk. When these market insiders move to one side of the market en masse, even swap dealers and hedge funds can get flattened."

BTW because of your prompting I have decided to re-read this book for a third time :slight_smile:

Hi peterma,

great answer, thanks. With the great pocket example it makes a lot more sense! Unfortunately I do not have such deep pockets so I guess I have to wait for the turning point. Which is of course not easy to find because if commercials stop selling one week, they might continue selling 3 weeks later :slight_smile:

You emphasize often that it is a lagging indicator. I understand that and know that but I do not use COT as an exit or entry point, in my opinion a 3 days data usually is not old to view the overall picture. Yes, this week it might be of course old but it is a special case.

And do not get upset because of reading, it is always good to read :slight_smile: Can you wait about 10-14 days? That is when I can start I think reading the 2 books, we can read daily and discuss it “live”. What a great idea! :slight_smile: Just say which book is the first and which one is second.

COT Report 18.07.2014.

Hi readers.

As the thread goes on, that is how some things change to improve myself and basically all of us. At this time the main discussion is which are the most important data of the report and what we have to look for. The main arguments on what I do not cover here is the commercials and the net position, still a question if this goes on commercials or non-commercials.

As far as we do not discuss what makes the most sense to analyze, I still write down the non-commercial changes from the report. I have to say though that this time I do agree that COT report does not really show the reality. The last three days of the week, which are not included in the report had huge changes in the market based on market sentiment (Ukraine-Russia aircraft accident, sanctions on Russia, Israel war). I still write down shortly what happened but I do not write comments while it does not make much sense to me. The week started out as a news week and then everything was changed based on geopolitical aspects. However the last three days of the week will be covered in the report next week.

Here are the non-commercial changes for the last week:

[B]AUD[/B]: 69.47% long from 68.90%.

[B]CAD[/B]: 57.43% long from 54.84%.

[B]CHF[/B]: 36.87% long from 36.42%.

[B]GBP[/B]: 64.55% long from 65.82%. Now the GBP does look interesting to me. Even if we are not looking at the last days, the non-commercials proportion is losing in the 2nd straight week. This is interesting to me as GBP is the only economy in my opinion which is doing well. All other economies have problem, lately even NZD. Maybe is this slowly the waited turning point for the GBP?

[B]NZD[/B]: 70.50% long from 68.44%.

[B]EUR[/B]: 32.72% long from 31.75%.

[B]JPY[/B]: 10.51% long from 12.59%. This data brings nothing. In the last days JPY was rocking.

[B]USD[/B]: USD index shows strengthening.

And now comes probably the most interesting part. We were talking about to write down our strategy of the next week to compare our strategies and discuss it before the market opens. Here are the two strategies that I plan to follow”

  1. I will first look how the market moves until Monday morning. Try to interpret if risk on/off sentiment is still very strong or not. In case the markets are a bit stabilized, then I try to follow the normal news reports and look for short term GBP long trades and NZD long trades.

  2. In case market sentiment changes up and down so strong like last week, which I can expect, I do another strategy. This strategy is based on what happened in the market on Thursday afternoon and then at night. What I mean is the JPY gets strong because of geopolitical situation, but cannot hold on to its gains because of the weak Japanese economy, better geopolitical situation and bad carry trade on JPY. This means I always will wait until JPY gets strong, try to find the turning points and go with more currencies long against the JPY.

I am waiting on your findings and your strategy descriptions, have a nice Sunday afternoon!

Hi FE

Not sure if this will be helpful.

Net position is calculated long minus the short. So it is relevant to both commercials and non commercials. Open interest and changes in net position can be helpful indicator to trade with the stronger side /existing trend/ therefore increases the probability of our trades.

I do get confused about who to follow as well more I read the more complicated it gets. If you look at cot report non commercials usually take the other side of the trade. You don’t really see them taking lump positions on same side. The thread that I was following on forexfactory he followed non commercials saying that commercials are there to hedge not to speculate which makes sense.

But like peterma said with COT report its hard to see what is underneath. If we can’t see through certain information it can be misleading. I’ll stick with non commercials for now it seems to be working.

But I also wonder is it really necessary to complicate things even further. Not saying that we’ll take everything at a face value. Still over complicating things might not always produce more winners than losers.

Hi guys!
Here goes my take.

From out to in, as I see it. The commodity currencies DID edge out the majors. By a small amount. (btw, I did go back and revised the data, which would be comms up and down days against majors, vise versa, with NO in within house comparing, and guess what I got, the exact same figures! Bottom line that is. I subtract away and come up with the difference).
I’ll give you what I got noted from the beginning of the year. See for yourself. These figures mean who edged out who by how many up days. These are the weeks of the year, who was on top, and by how much(total difference in amount of up days).

  1. M +26
  2. M +10
  3. M +18
  4. EVEN
  5. C +19
  6. M +4
  7. M +20
  8. M +12
  9. C +29
  10. M +10
  11. C + 24
  12. C +43
  13. C +4
  14. M +12
  15. M +8
  16. M +7
  17. C +9
  18. C +24
  19. C +17
  20. M +2
  21. C +5
  22. M +6
  23. C +36
  24. C +3
  25. C +16
  26. M +5
  27. C +8
  28. C + 2
    —On friday all three comm’s were on top. So, I will be looking for any momentum this week for the comm’s to make it another 3 in a row.
    —USD has big news on tues am, CPI. USD definitely has some momentum going now (last week). If it comes out good news for them, I will be looking for some short term longs. If not, NOT playing with them.
    —NZD has HUGE news on wed late, rate decision, AND expected to rise again. I will be watching them very early in the week. I think they will rebound much higher since fell a lot last week.
    —GBP has big news on wed am, mpc meeting, and also GDP on fri am.
    —JPY with big news wed late, CPI.

Look…I say that because you watch, (market participants know what’s coming up in the week) there’s always market pricing in before the data comes out. Even a few days out. Their gonna have NZD in mind early this week, and the rest (noted above) also.
I like to go with the flow, and I will jump on NZD if and when they start moving up the latter.
Going with the USD up if figures show good. It also just seems like everyone has been waiting and waiting for the USD to show some real strength. So, once again, we’ll see on them.
GBP…I will jump in on which ever way that moves. I agree with you about them, long. The last 2 weeks they have dropped much. Healthy correction. So, much more room to run now.
JPY… definitely have my eye on the (most infamous and talked about) USD/JPY. If it closes below 101.22, I’m riding that horsey down the road. And on the upside, only will go long when around 102.00 area.

So, I’m favoring the commodities this week.
BTW… last weeks total tally strong/weak looks like this. (amount of up days and down days against each other)

who–up days–down days–no change (The daily candles)

CAD +17 -7 11
AUD +16 -8 11
USD +15 -6 14
JPY +16 -13 6
EUR +11 -13 11
GBP +11 -17 7
CHF +8 -14 13
NZD +7 -23 5

That’s what I got.

Side note:

I also have finally found my particular strategy. It’s been a long time coming for this. I’m excited.
Bottom line is this…IF IT’S TRENDING, I’M IN IT…
I have a medium to long term strategy. And also a short term one also. 2 different time frame strategies.
So, if anyone would see a trend on the charts, I’m gonna be in it. I’m just so tired of seeing some longer term trends, and not being in it. I’m just gonna let them go until their not trending anymore, with much details and money management controls in place. And this is a mechanical method. Signals will tell me what to do. No longer am I gonna GUESS what might happen.

“market…do what you want to do…but if your gonna trend…i’m riding you like a bronco”

Anyway…that doesn’t mean I won’t jump in the market when the opportunity presents itself.
That kind of trading will be just different from what else I have.

So…I’m with you guys on what’s gonna happen this week. Thanks FE for the report!! Just always seem to coincide with the numbers that I compile. I need to hear that! Oh, and thanks for the carry trade links. Good stuff! Puts things into perspective.

I’ll let you know what kind of trading I do this week. First off, tonight, soon after the market opens, will be watching NZD. If they’re moving up, I’m in on some. (they like to take off a lot when their in session)

Mike

Hi rookie,

I think you are very right about overcomplicating things. I also like to follow non-commercials, but peterma is trading probably longer than all of us together and he had read the book of the person who has the longest COT history! I have a deal for you: we stick to non-commercials until I read the book and I can also say what I learned and what should be changed.

About the net change I know what you wrote, just did not know if you wanted to follow there commercials or non-commercials.

I think a lot about these “overcomplicating” sentences. You really are true about that. On the other side the more you see into it, the more you understand and can make more profit hopefully. Of course it is also more work!

I still wait for your trade views for next week!

Hey guys!

There won’t be COT index this time around. I’ll bring the numbers next week sorry for the delay was a little busy this week.

So here’s my outlook it might be repetitive to FE’s report. Hope you’ll find this useful nevertheless without the COT index.

CAD: net position increased from +10,295 to [B]+15,621[/B]
open interest increased to [B]129,787[/B]

CHF: net position decreased from -6,812 to [B]-6262 [/B]
open interest decreased to [B]35,007[/B] from 35,053

GBP: despite some cut in net long positions to +[B]38,770[/B] from +41,639 GBP still remains strong with majority of non commercials long on GBP. Reversal may not be happening anytime soon.

JPY: Open interest has decreased to [B]155,127[/B] from 157,710 with sellers amount 89%. However net short position decreased to -[B]62,948[/B] from -66,375. Looks like some players have withdrawn out from JPY trades last week.

EUR: Open interest with EUR has increased quite significantly from 294381 to [B]310,661[/B] with not much changes in short/long positions in percentage. But sellers have added onto their shorts to [B]-62,84[/B]6 from -59,265.

NZD: While there was some cut in open interest to [B]32,879[/B] from 36,123 last week buyers have added onto their long positions with net position at +[B]15,453[/B] from +14,416. NZD still remains strong.

AUD: Aussie dollar has attracted some attention with increase in open interest to [B]105,209[/B] from 101,860. Long and shorts still remain about the same in percentage. But buyers have added onto their long positions. Net positions increased to [B]+39,743 [/B]from +36,603.

Conclusion

Out of the bunch AUD, NZD stands out with more longs than shorts in percentage last week and the week prior. With both of these pairs buyers have added onto their longs.

While EUR and JPY with more shorts than longs. JPY has had some cuts in net short from previous weeks but still remains bearish.

Trade ideas

I’ll look for trade setups on NZDJPY AUDJPY NZDUSD - > Long
EURNZD - > Short

AUD CPI and HSBC CPI due on wednesday and thursday any unexpected data might change market sentiment. And also with kiwi rate decision due on thursday. Be ware!

Happy trading guys!

Hi Mike,

just a wonderful writing with great tables and description. I liked it so much and on the same thinking in many cases. However it does not make sense to write about things where I agree. That does not bring anything. So I rather point out issues where I find your writing “questionable”:

  1. the most important part is your last subject, not even about analysis!!! I am very happy that you see clear things now (at least you think that!) but I do not want that you just jump into trades like that! You will hurt yourself! Especially since summer is very low liquidity and mostly ranging markets but not trending. If you plan long term trades, then really look the big picture not the weekly which is dependent now on political issues. And calculate risk! For long term trades you need deep pockets like peterma would say. You need stop losses and be ready to take bigger losses. However also calculate with the carry trade factors as you know how important it is. Especially you make me worry about jumping in the market tonight. Do not forget that you will pay more spread and in these highly volatile markets it might be good to see a bit what really happens.

  2. Charts, analysis and writings about currencies I liked a lot with two exceptions on my side. I will definitely not want to jump now into long JPY trades. In my COT analysis I was often long for JPY but it did not happen. Long-term I expect it to get strength. However at the moment I only see the geopolitical factor and no strength in the economy. I also believe in the “trend is my friend” as it has key importance. For me, JPY has no trends, only some temporary strength.

  3. The other point where I am uncertain is the USD. Hmmm I also do not see why it should get strength. The economy does not seem to be great, Fed policy is unclear and rates are very low.

With NZD and GBP I think the same and your findings are interesting. If Commodities would win the next week, it is an indication for use that in 2 weeks probably Majors are on top!

I wish you good luck!

Hey FE!

Thanks for all your input. Good stuff for me to think about! I need all the constructive criticism I can get.

Really good.

Thanks.

Let the games begin.

Hey FE,

Non commercials and commercials take on the opposite side of the trades. The price goes up or down. Not sure if it is ‘better’ to follow one or the other.

For now few trades that I’ve taken based on non commercial COT on dailies has been winners. Maybe on weeklies it might be a different story. But like you said for now COT non commercials and we’ll see what happens!

FE is correct about reading - the more reading the better our chances of becoming informed.

Here is a little light reading by two respected players:

http://commitmentsoftraders.org/wp-content/uploads/Static/Perm/KlitgaardWeir2004.pdf

Hi all of You,

thanks a lot for your dedication and work on the weekend. Rookie, sorry, I just have recognized your analysis now as we posted almost in the same minute.

We had all our analysis, the common was in all three that NZD should go long! Of course as a commodity, it is highly affected on risk on/off sentiment, but if the tensions go down we all expect gain in value and carry trade.

Good luck to all of us, we can write how it is going because practice is the best learning.

I make sure to read peterma’s article until market opening!

First off I find your post very valueable and I had to be concentrated at full speed in order to fully grasp and I think I did at least the half.

Briese answers many of the questions. He gives detailed answers on the control that each player category exercises, for example [B]“They (commercials) control the overwhelming majority of the open interest in most markets”.[/B]

Until I read that line I still couldn’t wrap my head around why we should follow commercials as they were in to hedge not to speculate. I think it makes sense to follow the commercials since they control the majority of the open interest even if their intent was to hedge they will move the market to a greater degree than non commercials as they control bigger portion of open interest. But as a small retail trader it can be very tricky to find the right timing to cruise along with the big guys /commercials/. Like you said you’ve got to have deep pocket to follow them through.

[B]Briese suggests where such deep pockets are not required and yet we can follow the commercial action:-

“For most of us, better results will accrue from buying at the moment commercials QUIT buying (or moving short just as commercials STOP selling).
It is rare to see commercials stop buying before prices find a bottom, or to see them quit selling ahead of a top. I use the term ‘commercial capitulation’ to describe these rare events, which are the only occasions when it safe to safe to BUY WHILE COMMERCIALS ARE STILL BUYING.”[/B]

what does he exactly mean when he says follow the commercials ? He goes on says buy at the moment commercials quit buying if we buy when they commercials stop buying we’re on the opposite side to commercials therefore with non commercials. Same goes for sell at the moment when commercials stop selling.

So in conclusion what I understood is that we will be following both commercials and non commercials to find the right timing or otherwise commercials may come in and wash away your gains as they control much bigger portion than non commercials. But fundamentally we will be going along with non commercials just as when commercials take the other side of non commercials.

i would like to know read his book and understand concept behind the term ‘commercial capitulation’.

It was a very interesting read. And i’m more confused. But it makes sense to have commercials integrated as part of COT analysis as they hold a bigger portion and therefore have a greater impact on market. Having that in mind and moving along with the nuances and finding the balance seems more logical than just blinding following the non commercials without seeing the bigger picture.

Thanks again Peterma for your post ;p. Hope you’ll clarify some of my confusion.

Hey guys,

I came across this article thought it was interesting have a look :

COMMERCIALS, COMMERCIALS, COMMERCIALS

It was only after studying the works of a few experts like Larry Williams, Steve Breise, Floyd Upperman, and Jake Bernstein that I fully realized one portion of the participants are FAR more important to watch than the others : The Commercials. The Big Whales, The Deep Pockets The Deciders. These are the guys that when they make moves you will see the large scale ripple effects throughout the price of the commodity in question.

As you can see in the chart below the Commercial activity is often in the OPPOSITE direction of the markets trends. This is because they are actively buying when the market is going down and actively selling when the market is going up. They are the experts in their businesses they are often seen to be acting many months in advance of where they believe the price will be. Now this is not always the case and Commercials are not always a “sure thing” but they are the closest thing to a “predictor” that we can get. Also in the graph below I have isolated only the commercial movement and the Movement of Crude Oil over the last few years. It is very easy to see that the commercial movement dominates the overall price trend of oil.


Looking at these graph above /shows how commercials activity is often in the opposite direction of the market trends/ and

Briese suggests where such deep pockets are not required and yet we can follow the commercial action:-

"For most of us, better results will accrue from buying at the moment commercials QUIT buying (or moving short just as commercials STOP selling).

I think I have finally understood the reasoning behind this now. Commercials buy heavily while price is going down and pushing price further down and when they stop buying heavily non commercials come in with long positions while commercials await for a bigger push higher to short. Is it how it works ? :33:

You know what FE what do you think if I throw in COT index of commercials into the mix instead of non commercials COT index. With COT commercials index extreme readings we can predict when they’ll stop buying or selling so we can go long /just when they slow down on buying/ and vice versa with selling.

Oh boy this looks complicated :slight_smile:

I would interpret it in a way though that non-speculators make money and because I do not have deep pockets, maybe I should follow non-speculators and always analyse commercials to decide and see in the right time when a turning point comes. The commercials should give the signal for a turning point.

Hi rookie,

nice graph, explanation, creative ideas etc. I like the reasoning as well. The COT index for commercials is also a good idea. What not to try? I mean we can’t lose anything, at most it does not work :slight_smile:

I “give you a homework” though to think about. I like a lot your reasoning to buy when commercials stop buying and vice versa. However how do you decide when they stop buying or stop selling? That is the problem! It looks easy but it is very difficult. Do not forget we only analyse historical data which is easy to understand but predicting the future looks tough. If it wasn’t then everyone would be rich.

I write you an example what I mean. Based on what Briese (I think it was his quatation) said and looking at your graph we should have gone long in 2012 April when commercials started to short. However it was only for 2 weeks and price was falling without a break! If we went there long our account would habe been wiped out. The same is true about mid-April 2011. Commercial started to go short so we would have gone long. It was basically the top for the price. We would have lost everything. Before asking me what to do, I tell you I do also not have any better idea. I just like to be critical on issues to discuss them before losing our money. Can also happen that I understand it another way, and you explain how you want to use it.

By the way guys, something very important: my charting software does not work for some reason. My broker gives me a pretty bad charting program so I told them I need a better one. They gave me one (also not so great but a lot better what they have). What they gave was functioning until today, but not anymore, they do not give support because it is a third party and the third party does not give support for my old version. So I am basically dead. Without charts I cannot do anything. Does someone has an idea where can I get a free charting software?

Thanks

Hi peterma,

thanks for the article. If I understand it right, then it made some things clearer, however it did not help to find a solution to interpret things easier and finding the right way for market movement?

As I see we have a disadvantage compared to speculators becuase they have insider information what is not public (although I do not really get what kind of insider information do they mean). I also understand that changing the net position indicates the price movement and can about 75% accurately tell price movement for the given week and not for the following week. (What is funny, what you wrote from Briese to follow commercials, it is basically the opposite in this article as speculators make almost always the right decision.)

However because the method cannot be used for the future, it does not give us any helping hand. Am I write?

Yes FE, their analysis concentrated on Speculators only.

Another study, from RBA, in 2004 looked at the profitability of speculators, and how those profits are derived.

After a very long winded report the bottom line was reduced to 2 possibilities,

Quote:

Speculators may be more accurate at forecasting the exchange rate. But it is also possible that the two
groups are equally accurate in forecasting but hedgers knowingly trade at less favourable prices in order to induce speculators to hold the offsetting position. The evidence suggests that, in all likelihood, both explanations contribute some portion of speculator profits.
End quote.

The ‘insider information’ is sometimes referred to as private info, This is very likened to producers (hedgers) in the commodities, e.g. farmers may be aware before harvest the likely return per acre and thus have ‘private information’ on likely future supply levels.

The deep pockets make sense, commercials are often not leveraged and are often averaging in/out.

As GBP price rises they are selling (the same gbps that they were buying as it’s price fell, became cheaper).

A good businessman always buys as a product becomes cheaper and sells as prices rise.

But when he stops buying the product, you ask him why? - sure look how cheap it HAS become, he may answer, yes I HAVE been buying but not now because I have private information that price will not fall any further, I have enough for now and I will start to sell it as soon as it starts to rise in value.

Hi peterma,

great explanation as usually. Especially I liked the private info. It makes sense. Actually it would be good if we had a “friend” in one market with accurate analysis. We could trade only that commodity and make money in it.

Today I can think about such things and learn some extra stuff as the markets are dead. We prepaired ourselves so good and there is no movement :slight_smile:

I know exactly what you mean FE it’s not black and white. Talk is easy but actually doing it and making it work is a whole different story.

At this point I’m not even sure anymore. Like what has happened with your trades last week. I had to close both of my NZDUSD and NZDJPY trades in loss. Yesterday morning it looked all good and was earning some profit and since NY session it has been going downhill against me up until this morning Sydney open and I looked at the price action zoomed in to 4H and have decided to close my trades prior it hit my SL. PA looked bad anyways against me so bother keeping it and suffer more loss I thought.

It might just be a minor pullback on dailies but on 4H chart it looked like a reversal at least for now. That got me thinking if COT index and all that data relevant at all to short term trades. Don’t get me wrong I still put much weight on COT and still think it is a great tool. But for someone like me who usually keeps position open for a few hours to max a day. It seems out of context.

And again like we have been discussing over here many times how COT is few days late therefore a historic data. So when we move onto a new week if we look at PA at our charts much of actions have already started taking place while we haven’t got a clue what next COT is like so.

I wonder if sticking with just my good old trustee support and resistance and reading PA is suitable.