Going offshore to escape the CFTC

Broker Discussion Forex Brokers
12158

And he got ceremoniously banned from FPA

2 Likes
12159

Not sure what he expected. He’s doing the rounds on some other forums too. I just don’t get what point he’s trying to prove?

1 Like
12160

Fear And Don’t Trust the Unregulated Brokers

12161

In a nearly 12 year old thread regularly contributed to by people who know what they’re talking about and have evidence to support their stance. He should really learn to pick his audience!

2 Likes
12162

i forgot to mention FXCM behavior was so egregious U.S. regulators kicked them out of the country. After many more cases of U.S. brokers ripping off clients, I took my chances and went offshore, which proved to be the better choice for me.

12163

Hello everyone!

As my first post here I thought I would share the results of ~3 months of research, endless emailing, countless conversations with customer support agents, and a lot of coffee. :slight_smile:

There are currently 70 brokers who have confirmed they will take US clients (and Canadians too).

I can’t post links as a new member but here’s how to find the list:

Go to the Steve Hopwood Forex forum, go to the “Alternatives to Global Prime” sub-forum, and then click on the “Brokers For Canadian & American Traders” thread.

Empty4 = MT4, Empty5 = MT5. All brokers listed offer MT4 unless otherwise specified.

At this point I’m just waiting for unresponsive brokers to respond to my emails. Obviously, some of them are better than others in terms of spread, instruments offered, customer support, the flexibility of deposits/withdrawals, and any other important dealbreaker you can think of.

The list will be updated frequently, so feel free to tune in once every few days to see what changes have been made.

Let me know what you guys think! I hope you find this list useful.

3 Likes
12164
  • Hugo’s Way
  • Number One Capital Markets
  • Hanko Trade
  • Turnkey Forex
  • LDQFX
  • LMFX
  • OspreyFX
  • Prosperity4X
  • SageFX
  • CedarFX
  • ATC Brokers
  • AAFX
  • LongHornFX
  • Oanda (I’ve heard very mixed things about them, so double down on investigating them)
  • EagleFX
  • KOT4X
  • Tradiso
  • CryptoRocket
  • Finpro Trading
  • AzaForex (no Empty4 or Empty5 available, you have to trade through their web platform)
  • Uniglobe Markets
  • Coinexx
  • EnviFX
  • FXSWay
  • BluwaveFX
  • FairForexFX
  • Nash Markets
  • XtreamForex
  • FX Wonders
  • Hey Forex
  • Inland FX (they only have a website and no other mention anywhere else on the Internet, plus they are Empty5 only, and no indication of available instruments or spreads)
  • TP Global FX
  • Crypto Altum (Empty5 only, has forex but their main specialty is cryptocurrency trading)
  • Esta Trade
  • Hive Markets
  • Interactive Brokers (no Empty4/5 platform, low leverage)
  • Forex.com (also heard very mixed things, very limited to a Standard account if using Empty4)
  • FX Live Capital
  • CapitalCore (Empty4/MT5 to arrive by end of January 2022, with the addition of more indices and US stocks available to trade. But their binary options are strictly limited to their own web platform)
  • FXGlory
  • Lirunex
  • LegacyFX (Empty5 only)
  • BitYard (no Empty4/5)
  • UNFXB (Empty5 only)
  • VitalMarkets
  • CarbonCapitalFX (Empty5 only)
  • MEEFX
  • JMI Brokers
  • SolidECN (Empty5 only)
  • EncoreCapitals (Empty5 only)
  • Investizo
  • Ventura Prime FX
  • Climax Prime (Empty5 only)
  • ExcoTrader
  • BelleoFX (Empty5 only)
  • MecuryFX (Empty5 only)
  • Face Capital Limited (Empty5 only)
  • FX Primary
  • BenchMarkFX
  • ZeyFex (Empty5 only, seems like more of a copy trade service)
  • Inveslo
  • Istithmar.co.uk (Empty5 only)
  • EnclaveFX (Empty5 only)
  • MarketProTrade.com (no Empty4/5, uses their own proprietary platform)
  • Proton Capital Markets
  • Kumo Markets
  • LidyaFX (Empty5 only)
  • Sapphire Markets (Empty5 only)
  • Investorsnet.org
  • AlphaForexMarkets.com (Empty5 only)
5 Likes
12165

Thanks a ton for sharing the brokers here.

Keep in mind all updates will be posted on the Steve Hopwood Forex forum, so you’ll have to check in once in a while to see if I’ve made any new additions or removals.

Or until I get permission to put links here. Whichever comes first. :sweat_smile:

1 Like
12167

image

Good luck with all that Paula. :rofl:

Looks like you also got ceremoniously banned from Trade2Win as well. Great track record you have there.

Edit: And he’s gone…

image
image1157×311 38.7 KB

1 Like
12168

Maybe his mother should go into the basement and unplug his computer, all jokes aside he’s gone let’s move on

1 Like
12169

Litigation over what exactly? What is wrong with this guy?

1 Like
12170

Laughing at him perhaps? There was a long diatribe of his that got deleted by the mods. I had just quoted a small piece of it. Strange chap.

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12171

Guess who’s back, just got this email today.

ePayments is back and we couldn’t be more excited! https://www.epayments.com/

|Hi JAMES,

It’s been a while and it’s only fair that we have a lot to say. This will be a long article so bear with us and let’s start with the most important, we’re delighted to reopen for business after challenging times and we can’t wait to start serving you again. We want it, you deserve it and it’s happening!

It’s taken a lot of work, huge investment from our shareholders, and some tough decisions to get to this point, but we’re very excited to get back to doing what we do best: making your cross-border payments a breeze to your operational needs.

We’re gradually reopening our doors to existing and new customers, while enabling the whole host of our most valued features and services:

  • Your safe and secure multi-currency wallet, to receive and send payments worldwide;
  • Your flexible ePayments Mastercard for everyday spending (available soon and not from day one of BAU); and
  • A simple, reliable and easy to use app that keeps your money secure across multiple OS platforms

We know the last year was rough for both us and our customers, as such, instead of prioritising business as usual activities or growth targets and onboarding of new customers, ePayments decided that in the initial weeks post reopening doors we’re going to prioritise all efforts, focus and resources into giving our customers the access to its funds through the refunds process. We are working with our banking partners to be able to open refunds for more customers. We’re now open and giving qualified customers access to trigger refunds process as a business priority.

We still want to keep our platform as open, cost-effective and inclusive as it always has been, serving freelancers and entrepreneurs around the world without discrimination.

There are many things we want to say to our customers at this huge moment in the ePayments journey. For now though, we’ve chosen our top five .

1. Thank you for the trust and confidence.

We would firstly like to thank every one of our customers and partners for their patience, loyalty and support whilst we’ve embarked on this difficult journey.

As well as now being able to open our doors, we’ve been steadily ramping up our refunds process. We’re delighted to announce that we’ve now processed millions in refunds for the eligible customers who completed remediation, and with your help this was made as smooth and organised as possible.

This past year has been tough for everyone, in many different ways. At this time, more than ever, we wish we’d been able to deliver the service you’d come to expect from ePayments.

We’re delighted to know that so many freelancers and businesses are keen to remain ePayments customers into this next chapter. We deeply appreciate your loyalty and trust.

We will always aim to go above and beyond the high expectations of our customers and partners. Our commitment to our customers remains our greatest strength and the reason we spent the past year building back better.

We also want to thank everyone who has taken the time to share feedback about our products and services to help us create an experience that’s streamlined and easy to use. We really appreciate your help and everything we do is motivated by the willingness to better serve our customers.

2. We take this seriously

Since the day our operations were turned off, we’ve made sure to do the right thing at every stage of the process.

Since the very beginning, our shareholders have been committed to bringing ePayments back to full strength; letting the company fold has never been an option. They have invested ÂŁ15 million over the past year to keep the company going, keep our 150-strong team in their jobs, and provided the resources needed to build back better.

We’ve engaged with expert consultants, overhauled all of our systems and controls, enhanced our senior management and leadership team, and had our work signed off by an approved audit firm.

As part of this process, we’ve created hundreds of new regulatory and compliance documents and hired 50 new team members. Here are some snapshots of what’s been happening* while we’ve been away.

  • Disclaimer: We’re not authorized to share all the complex information, so we are sharing the highlights in a summarized form that may help you understand why it took so long.

2020

February: The day after our doors close, we start looking at the problems within our business and pull together a roadmap for fixing them. We hire a top law firm to represent the interests of the company and our customers.

March: We start working with a top four firm to rebuild our systems and risk framework, and stay in touch with the regulator to keep them updated on our progress.

April: We work with the regulator to figure out how to make refunds to customers. We continue to build out our authentication systems to further protect our customers from any cybersecurity risks while being fully compliant with PSRs.

May: Our revised anti-money laundering (AML) policies and procedures come together and we finalise our company-wide assessment. We also start to add specialised people to our leadership team so we can make greater strides towards being fully operational.

June: Our financial crime team hires a new manager with experience of the remediation process. We update our transaction monitoring rules and create policies to meet our obligations as an e-money institution (EMI).

July: We start a new company-wide training programme on compliance and preventing financial crime. Further investing in our people, we create new committees to manage the business more openly and transparently. We build new know-your-customer (KYC) checks.

August: We bring in Brighter Management Consultancy to help us move even faster through our compliance to-do list. After a thorough search, we choose an external auditor and hire a new head of transaction monitoring, an essential jigsaw piece for returning to normal.

September: We decide to bring our entire compliance operations team back to the UK, and work to smooth out many of the product processes for customers.

October: We work with the external auditor on a new plan towards reopening our doors. We hired another key member of the team: a new Money Laundering Reporting Officer (MLRO).

November: We’re getting there! The latest refunds plan is approved by the auditor and we share it with the regulator. Plus, our new screening processes for onboarding new customers and our customer risk rating management are both audited and approved as fit for purpose.

December: Our new CEO joins ePayments, bringing strong management experience and expertise. Our customer fund protections are audited and approved, and our financial stress tests pass.

2021

January: Since audits are slow and complicated we inform the regulator we’re ready to trigger the final stages to reopen our doors and we get back in touch with our banking partners to put new agreements in place. Our new CPO joins the team, with a mission to transform the product and build the future. Our governance framework is audited and approved.

February: It’s been a year since restrictions were enforced, during which we’ve worked continuously to defend the company and protect our customers’ interests. We get approval for our refunds plan and we test the infrastructure to make sure we’re ready to carry it out.

March: The first customers receive their refunds and we receive permission to communicate with all customers. We inform all customers about the refunds. The master program that tracks all the work required to return to normal is around 73% completed.

April: The shareholders reinforce their commitment to the business with further investment, and approve the 3-year business plan. More customers receive their refunds.

May and June: Many more accounts are remediated, enabling thousands of individuals to access their funds. We start talking to prospective banking partners in the UK and US and we start the search for a new EU tech center in which to establish a second base as part of the Brexit implementation strategy.

July and August: We go through the very last audits and processes to get FINAL approvals from the regulator to reopen our doors, in a tiered process that will quickly scale up to full services and functionality. As part of a wide regulatory communications plan, we wrote to all our customers to remind them of how we protect their money as an EMI.

September, October and November: We keep collaborating with legal and regulatory entities to receive the written approvals and terms of business. At the same time, we started to enable the banking relationships with all the banking partners while testing all the integrations and components of our banking IT infrastructure, this is an essential process to serving our customers without any issues or surprises.

So, now we’re ready. It’s been a while, and it may take a little bit more time to get up to full speed. But we have so many plans for the months and years ahead - so watch this space for the next product and feature announcements.

We understand that it’s been frustrating not to know when we were going to be ready to turn our business back on. We hope you understand that we’ve needed to make sure we have the full support of all parties, before making this announcement.

In the backstage, we’ve rebuilt the whole business while we’ve been away. We have taken steps far beyond what we believe was expected of us, so that we and you can be completely confident in our products and services from now on.

3. We’ve got your back

Our customers rely on us for products and services they can’t get anywhere else. Many have grown with us from startups to global success stories, and we’re very proud to be able to show up for you once again.

We’re hugely inspired and motivated by the digital and creators economy’s response to the current crisis. In the face of adversity, freelancers, small businesses, and international entrepreneurs are continuing to do what they do best: driving the world forward.

We understand our customers’ businesses thanks to decades of experience in the market, and we’ve invested heavily in our products and technology over the past year. This deep knowledge has enabled us to rebuild the product to be even more aligned with our customers’ goals. We believe that our platform is fast, secure and cost effective, and what people need right now.

The pandemic has compressed five years’ worth of change into less than one, and people no longer live, work and get paid in a single country and currency. The explosion in remote working has created massive and growing demand for cross-border payments.

Consumers now want their retail experience to be replicated in the payments world. That means instant, frictionless services and great experiences.

We see that, and we’re here for you.

4. You’re safe with us. We mean it.

We’re not going to let this happen again. ePayments is still the same company with all the benefits that attracted you in the first place and we still have the same values and mission but now with a much stronger technology and business approach that’s focused on serving while protecting you and us at same time. Our team and shareholders believe passionately that businesses, entrepreneurs and freelancers need a payments platform that they can rely on.

We’ve now worked on every part of the business to make sure we’re ready to serve you again. We’re determined to help you grow and expand without barriers, as you deserve.

Each part of ePayments is connected to everything else, so in the process of revamping our systems and controls, we have rebuilt the product, our company structure, and more. This is one of the reasons why we’re feeling confident about what comes next.

Have you heard the modern day expression that “Lightning doesn’t strike twice.” … We have gone above and beyond in order to relaunch a product that we believe you can trust and use with confidence.

5. You won’t want to miss what’s next!

We’re delighted to be back and we have big plans for what’s next, from the next few months all the way up to 2025. Our ambitions for our product, technology and international expansion are sky-high.

We’re in conversations with potential new banking partners that feel more constructive and exciting than ever before. We have new products and features in the pipeline that we know you’re going to love.

We plan to supercharge our wallet feature with extra currencies and new functionality such as Apple Pay, Google Pay, virtual cards for safe online shopping and a peer-to-peer service economy all within the ePayments platform.

We’re developing new products and solutions that are tailored for growth and expansion, including new currencies, new payment channels, digital asset investment, new products, automatic tax payment and more. You’re not going to want to miss out.

We would be very glad to work with you again, and we’re keen to keep in touch. What does your business need from us? Let us know by email we want to keep building products and services to support your business as you grow.|
||
|Yours Sincerely,
ePayments|

1 Like
12172

I had gotten the same. I never used them even tho at one point i apparently signed up with them.

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12173

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2022 !! Where did HyperScalper go ??

You might remember me, as we U.S. persons jointly
struggled against the CFTC restrictions.

This is absolutely NOT an “I told you so!”
message, not at all !! But I did make my decision
to break from Forex because of all the issues
Clint and everyone else has been battling for
the good of all U.S. persons.

I just thought I’d summarize, as a U.S. person
Where I fled to, and Why. It might be information
that some of you would find welcome, as U.S. persons,
and also give some of you options you may not have
realized exist.

I find that many Forex traders are in the field,
because of the low cost of entry, and the very low
Risk Levels which can be achieved for Small Traders.
U.S. Futures contracts seem too much to handle, and
the margining requirements make it difficult for
under-funded traders to even participate. Well, I
have the solution to that problem, among others…

Albeit, this option is NOT in Forex, but it does
present a way forward for many of you who desire
to trade, perhaps in Futures contracts, but who
are wondering about 1) the platform technology to
choose, and 2) the brokerage, margining requirements,
and 3) trading “big size” with very very little
actual equity infusion. I have found this niche,
and for 18 months of solid, highly technical work,
am now in a position to ramp up operations.

I hope you’ll allow me the privilege of mentioning
a commercial entity which I am using as a “prop firm”
and not ban this post just because I’m recommending
it. I don’t have any kickbacks, but am just telling
you my story, and how unreasonably high margins in
futures can make it nearly impossible to trade
“big size”…

So Please don’t ban me for that recommendation.
There are lots of other so-called “prop
firms” who will offer to “fund you”, BUT they are
filled with Terms and Conditions which Restrict
your trading. This one doesn’t !!! And I’ll just
leave it to you to do your own Due Diligence on
that, but take my experience as a guide, perhaps…

When starting, a trader needs 1) the best technology,
and 2) the highest quality market data feed, and
then ultimately 3) transition to Live profitable
trading (we hope !!). My approach provides all of
those features, fairly, honestly, with very reasonable
fees along the way… more about that.

Overview: I have focused on very very specific
technology, as well as very specific Futures Market,
which is the Nasdaq 100 which has “mini” contract
NQ, and “micro” contract MNQ (1/10th the value).
I am super niche focused in my work, just as I
was in Forex; and use very high technology as well,
in order to gain “an edge”.

Why? Well, the Nasdaq is the most Brutal and Dynamic
of just about any futures contract. So just as in
the song about New York: “If I can make it there,
I’ll make it anywhere”; it’s been the Challenge
which I set for myself, and it is extremely difficult
to master its day trading scalping; but, of course,
I have thrown a lot of technology at the problem,
which I am not offering “for sale” to anyone; although
I would always be happy to offer advice and suggestions.

Platform is NinjaTrader 8, which is free to use (I think),
and the “prop firm” is LeeLoo Trading, which will provide
license keys appropriate to use the NT8 with their
services. You do not in any way need to use NinjaTrader’s
Brokerage; not at all. The LeeLoo services will connect
you to the Premium Rithmic Market Data services, as part
of their normal operations. Unaggregated feed, extremely
important. This possibility is important, since
you would normally think you’d need to be locked into
NinjaTrader’s Brokerage services, in order to use their
Platform NinjaTrader 8. THAT IS NOT TRUE.

If you were to use NinjaTrader’s brokerage, and wanted
to use the Premium Rithmic Order Routing and Market
Data, then your Margin requirements would be far too
high to be able to trade any significant size. You
would be penalized for not choosing their “garden variety”
data feed, which is far inferior; so realize that the
NinjaTrader platform does NOT require using their
brokerage services. IF you have huge money, then you
could tolerate their margin requirements, but it’s the
biggest roadblock to scaling up your trading !!! :frowning:

Selling software at this level of complexity is like
selling an F-22 or F-35 without an Owner’s Manual, and
I don’t like the support implications; it’s that complex,
and I wrote it all, in compiled C#, within NinjaTrader;
which means that you could also write code within the
platform, depending upon your skills. So-called “Ninja Script”
is NOT a scripting (interpreted) language, but is first
class C# in which Multi-Threading, Object-Oriented design
can be done; albeit, you’ll want to use Visual Studio,
and not the restrictive Ninja Script editor. The point
is it’s “pure” high end extremely fast C#, if you are
inclined to write Indicators, etc…

Alternatives? Yes, there are many U.S. Futures
contracts which “move slowly” and thus offer much
less brutal volatility risk than Nasdaq. I’d
recommend you start with some of the others, like
maybe the ES and MES which are the S&P 500 contracts,
and which move very very slowly, as a starting point.
But, of course, I’ve chosen the “Butt-Kicking Nasdaq”
and cannot tell you how challenging that one is !!!
(yes, I have boot marks on my behind to prove it!) lol

This is getting too long; so let me summarize the main
points of my recommendation for U.S. traders who may
wish to migrate a part of their trading to U.S. futures,
using my suggested pathway:

  1. Contact LeeLoo Trading, and ask them about the cheapest
    way for you to obtain NinjaTrader 8. They know all the
    tricks, and it is a major platform for their traders,
    as well as Ninja Trader offering free platform support,
    which has no requirement to use their brokerage.

  2. Ask them how their Rithmic Market Data works, and
    study the various subscription plans offered, for
    “qualification” as a paid trader. Many are trying, but
    few will succeed, and clearly LeeLoo is getting good
    revenue on these subscriptions; and that’s fine, since
    the costs are fair, and LeeLoo is an ethical entity
    to partner with.

Having done your due diligence, and studied the options,
then you would commence your futures trading work; by
partnering with LeeLoo.

SOUNDS GREAT, BUT WHAT’S THE CATCH? Well, there really
isn’t much of a catch at all. You will NOT need a monster
account to trade; but you will have huge buying power, if
you can qualify, and will have a profit-sharing relationship,
where you receive 80% of net profits, and they take 20%
for the first Year. Thereafter, it is 90% / 10% profit
sharing split; and you operate on basically a 1099 type
basis with LeeLoo Trading as the partner.

So, once again, don’t ban me for specifically recommending
LeeLoo, since they are the ONLY service which places NO
RESTRICTIONS on how or when you can trade their accounts,
but ALL of the others are very restrictive on “rules of
trading”. THAT BEING SAID, explore what other Prop Firms
offer, and make your own decisions.

CONTRACT POINT VALUES: So when you are trading Nasdaq 100,
using the “eMini” NQ contract, you will experience an exposure
of $20 per Point exposure. Given how fast Nasdaq moves, that
can easily destroy you. But using the “micro” MNQ contract,
your exposure will be 1/10th of that, being $2 / Point, which
is also $0.50 per Tick (there being 4 ticks per Point).

At this “micro” exposure level you are able to use multiple
entries, and spread your risks. (reminder: it’s not your
money you’re trading with !)

Let me end by this: It is impossible for you to Lose any
of your own money; as you don’t use your own money to trade.
Even if you transition to a Paid account; again, it is
impossible for you to be exposed to financial loss.

I won’t go into any of the extreme details which I’ve coded,
but I handle far more than 1000 events per second, in my C#
code within NinjaTrader, and this code is Analysis, Execution,
plus a complex WinForms (not WPF) interface, all in one !!
It’s a Beast which I just call “Thingy”. I have a dedicated
server (Xeon, 6 cores, 4.5ghz, 32gb) in Chicago at a great
hosting provider; for which I pay $200/month; but it’s literally
less than 1 millisecond latency from the CME Exchanges in Aurora !!!
Of course you don’t need that to start out.

SO IF YOU ARE STRUGGLING with the idea of moving to U.S.
Futures, this is a pathway which even the most under-funded
trader can take; which has the potential of huge returns,
provided you are, or can become, a good trader. You don’t need
huge money to startup; nor to operate theoretically at high
profit levels, with literally no downside risk to you as a trader,
except for some monthly subscription fees.

Can’t really beat such an approach; so I just hope that the
frustrations a few of you feel, can be offset by considering
the path I’ve chosen. Yes, the CFTC Wins; but then again,
that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, even though it remains
terrible for Forex.

hyperscalper

12174

:nerd_face:

12175

Good info. Wondered what you ended up doing. Many people here have rightly sung praises of index trading. Volatility is there. I should have listened to them sooner. These days I’m mostly trading indexes on Crypto rocket and doing less Forex trading.
Leeloo looks interesting. Do they have a demo? Is there an API besides Ninja Trader? I would rather use a REST API or Python if possible.
Not sure if conversation is on topic. If not, maybe we move discussion to Discord.
I will give LeeLoo a try if there is a free demo. Without it, I wouldn’t feel comfortable gauging success chances.
And bro, what are you coding that analyzes 1,000 events per second? My smallest timeframe is 15M candles. I know your name is Hyperscalper, but what could you be seeing at that precision? Does LeeLoo show accurate market depth or something?

1 Like
12176

Welcome back, HS. I hope you will hang around for a while.

Fascinating post. I think there are at least a few members here who will find “food for thought” in the plan you have laid out.

If there is more you’d like to share, please feel free to do so.

Technically, everything other than finding and vetting offshore forex brokers is off topic in this thread. So, technically, futures trading (except through an offshore forex broker) is off topic here. But, that being said…

…we tolerate and encourage discussion of many topics which are only tangentially related to the main focus of this thread – cryptocurrencies being one obvious example.

What HyperScalper has described is a plausible path forward for traders who are struggling with forex, whether offshore, or through US brokers. In my view, his recommendations are entirely appropriate for our community. And I, for one, welcome his return to this thread.

1 Like
12177

I have checked out Leeloo trading and I would say it is much worse than Myforexfunds.

First if you want to compare different prop firm programs you need to agree, drawdown is the funds you get from prop firms, not account size. Because your trading capital never exceed drawdown,and prop firms never risk more than drawdown.

Leeloo have 2 programs:
Leeloo express:
$6000 profit target, $3000 trailing drawdown,
$77/14 days
So you need to make 200% in 14 days(6000/3000=200%).
It is worse than that, because it is trailing drawdown, which is much tougher than fixed drawdown.
I don’t think it is realistic to make 200% in 14 days and the chance for every time you pass the challenge, you will break your drawdown 100 times.

Aspire:
$150 profit target,1500 trailing drawdown;
$150/month
So you need to make 100% on $150 monthly fee.

Let’s compare myforexfunds:

$1600 profit target, $2400 drawdown,
$139 one time fee, refund 140% original fee if passed.
fixed drawdown.
You need to make 67% on $139 fee.

So for Leeloo you need to pay higher fee, achieve higher profit target, and get less drawdown(therefore get less funds if you pass).

2 Likes
12178

Earntotrade has a 40% discount on their 25000 program, so for a 1500 trailing drawdown you pay $90 monthly fee.
It is still much worse than MFF but is much cheaper than Leeloo.

1 Like