How much money do you need to begin trading for a living?

Good morning.

Yeh. When I read these posts first thing this morning I wanted to say “Hey: you’re picking on the wrong poster. @anon46773462 wasn’t the one being negative i.e. it was me”!!! LOL!!!

But yes: some really great posts overnight.

Like I said earlier: I’ve painted a really gloomy picture no doubt. Others have now come along and diluted such gloomy picture. And that, to me anyway, has created BALANCE which really was my point all along. Put another way: there are things here now that have been addressed and discussed which you really don’t usually find being addressed and discussed. Most threads and posts bang on about risk management and technical analysis and how much money you can make etc. etc. etc. There’s simply much more to it than that. And while this thread has gone off topic: I believe it contains some sound advice and food for thought. And if after reading all of this somebody still wants to give up their day job and security and start trading for a living: I sincerely wish them well. If nothing else I’d like to think that these posts from everyone have at least given them some deeper insight thus enabling them to make a more informed decision.

The above all being said: I’m in no way retracting my steps here. My experience in this business for the first five or more years was painful to say the least. I’m talking about losing upper six figures of savings, three luxury cars, a family home that was fully paid for, my family, and some other people’s money. I know what pressure is. Believe me. And I nearly ended up, quite literally, on the street. And that is all for real. It is a real world example coming from a real person that is sitting here typing this to you today i.e. not something abstract or just some words on a page. And my point really is that over those years: my posts and advice given and taken and my dreams and aspirations were absolutely no different to the stuff that makes up more than half of the new posts around here on various threads today. I also had stars in my eyes for a good few years. And I’m not a stupid person by any means. Nor am I a gambler (something that frankly I absolutely loathe and despise with a passion). But true to form: over those years I was able to make just enough money in sporadic bursts and make just enough money to be able to build up a track record for a few months to lull me (and others) into thinking that I’d finally cracked it. Next thing: over confidence and, well, the rest if history (in fairness though the credit crisis didn’t exactly help matters). Rinse and repeat. Over and over. And I was totally in love with this business i.e. with every nuance. I couldn’t get enough of it. I couldn’t get enough information about it. So passion wasn’t the problem. But passion wasn’t enough (I’ve read more than one post about this of late). Commitment wasn’t the problem either i.e. I lived, ate, and slept this business. At the end of the day and with hindsight: the only joy I got from it was the time I spent on these very forums having discussions with the likes of you (the forum members). Oh I learned a lot at the time. Learned even more when I started working for a broker. For all of that knowledge I’m eternally grateful. But just how much of all of that I learned back then has enabled me to trade profitably (albeit that the profit overall is still not what it should be i.e. even now still have one or two demons that rear their ugly heads from time to time) for the last five or so years off and on and on a part time basis is highly debatable.

In closing and just to set the record straight: somebody mentioned that they’re not sure re: my motives for being around here (again). In short and without going into the gory details: I’ve rather suddenly ended up in a position where I am left with no choice but to trade to make ends meet for the next two or three months (and believe me when I say I have no other choices i.e. it’s not been for want of trying on my part). So this should be interesting i.e. no longer am I trading simply to make some extra cash to buy musical equipment or pay for a good night out. This is now a question of survival for the next few months. Am I nervous??? Yes I am. But at least I know that I am (now) capable of making some money in this business (a four to five year track record is good enough for me) just as long as I don’t let the pressure get to me and just as long as I don’t get ahead of myself (these are, again, probably more notes to self than anything else). As to why I’m posting again: ironically (in the context of this thread) it goes a long way toward alleviating the boredom, loneliness, and isolation. And, well, old habits die hard I guess i.e. I suppose if I can help somebody else to not make the same mistakes I’ve made well then it’s all good and I’ve accomplished something worthwhile. And as much as I have berated this business I really do still enjoy talking about it and discussing the various aspects of it. I must say: it does kinda feel like coming home to be honest. I guess in spite of my posts to the contrary: it does still excite and enthuse (I just think the key here is to not let either get out of hand).

So that’s it. Probably a lot more than you wanted to or needed to know. But there you have the low down.

Once again: really happy about the direction this thread has taken and the posts (even although it’s gone off topic to a rather large degree).

Regards,

Dale.

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Yes I am actually very aware! However I simply quoted his points through your quotes, so therefore it put your name there instead. I was simply giving my thoughts of his original comment and not your rendition of it.
Therefore, a lot of the things he stated had no context which my points were based off of. Where as your points had a lot of context and hence, I had no problem with.

Of course not. But the original question in the article had nothing to do with that. He never asked if he should quit him normal job, nor did I say he should. Actually, unless you understand and are ready to be a fulltime trader, you cant quit your job. Again, you cant just quit your job and become a doctor…you have to learn how to be a doctor first. However, the commentators perspective didnt bring this to question. He simply states that job or not, its a bad idea to be fulltime and I of course disagree.

No not at all! I was simply saying the other commentor I responded to was looking at things half empty. I totally understand where you were coming from but I just wanted to give more detail on what my response meant so there wasn’t any misunderstanding. Nonetheless I really loved the dialog and have had a great time looking into someone elses perspective!

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Hello.

We were obviously over typing each other.

Nothing to add other than the below (another great, and BALANCING, post by the way):

Believe it or not: that contributed to my less than stellar performance i.e. I’ve always been the kind of person that sees the glass as half full which, in my case, translated to unrealistic expectations and throwing all caution and reality to the wind. Maybe seeing the level in the glass for what it is is what I’ve been trying to get to all along on this thread.

Regards,

Dale.

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I think that no less than few thousands if not more. You will have some losses along the way and that’s it. Definitely much more than initial min deposit for those. And please be sure to verify if the broker is regulated or something like this please. They could be different;)

Thank you @Zhadow45 and @dpaterso for a great indepth discussion of this issue. That is quite a rarity for a forum!

Negativity and realism are very easily confused. I consider myself a realist and I guess I can often come across as negative because I am used to assessing the pros and the cons before making decisions. But that is probably the result of a lifetime in banking, primarily in risk assessment! :smiley:

In response to the actual topic of this thread, I don’t think the issue here is just how much money you have in your trading account. As a full-time trader one knows the type and size of one’s positions needed to achieve the quantified required/desired level of income. And one does not need to carry in one’s trading account more than the margin requirement plus a generous addition to cover the extent to which positions may go against you. Anything else is surplus in your trading account.

But that is not the whole story by any means (my opinion anyway). Everyone knows that trading income varies according to market behaviour and one’s performance. There are good months, average months and bad months, too. There will also be longer periods of both good and bad. Therefore one also needs a good deposit in some other place and form that can cover you over these periods and thereby avoid serious stress situations that will destroy your concentration.

In my opinion, this reserve should be sufficient to cover your living costs over a period of even up to 12 months without trading income - and still not leave you bankrupt at the end of it if you actually end up using it all up.

It is also worth considering when deciding how much one needs to earn, that this should also include a healthy contribution to your capital build-up. As you reach the autumn years of your trading career you will want to see something more for your efforts than just the fact that you covered your expenses and survived!

You will also need to take into account when projecting your income requirements that you will not be trading more than maybe 10 months of the year and maybe only 15 days of a month.

It is also relevant to consider whether you will be trading short term or long term. You will need to draw money to live, but long term trades do not always produce regular profits. Short term trades bring in the money but can be far more erratic.

These things need to be practiced and experienced and producing a track record before going full-time.

But the actual sums required depend on the individual and their commitments and ambitions. You don’t get inflation-linked or length of service-related pay increases and you won’t get pension benefits. You are your own boss and the result of your own decision-making - that is the benefit and the risk of such a business.

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Almost three years ago, in a thread similar to this one, a poster who calls himself ropunzel asked two questions about full-time trading.

I’m paraphrasing his questions here:

  • How do you budget monthly expenses, given a fluctuating income stream from trading?

  • How much trading capital is required to support a given lifestyle?

Regarding the trading capital question, I offered a formula for estimating the initial capital requirement, based on assumptions of (1) the trader’s required monthly living expenses, and (2) the trader’s proven, long-term, consistent, average monthly ROI (return on invested capital).

The formula suggested a range of $100,000 to $600,000 in trading capital to support monthly living expenses of $4,000 (before taxes), depending on assumed ROI ranging from 6% per month, down to 1% per month.

These estimates of required trading capital are higher than any suggested elsewhere in this thread, but I think they represent the reality of trading for a living in a sustainable way.

By sustainable I mean a capital base which can (1) weather monthly fluctuations, seasonal slow-downs (the well-known summer doldrums, for example), changes in market conditions, occasional (albeit infrequent) black-swan events, and temporary illnesses or other personal problems, (2) allow for stress-free holidays and vacations, and (3) grow over time.

Here’s a LINK to the post in which I laid out my formula.

Much as you might yearn to escape your nine-to-five job, become your own boss, and begin trading for a living — this is not a leap you should make without meticulously careful planning.

Adequate starting capital is necessary. But, equally important is the requirement in bold-type, above.

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@anon46773462

Wow, dude :slight_smile:

You broke your personal record on word count LOL!

Just messing with you, very concise approach…Well done.

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Not quite, but close! :blush: :rofl:

Some topics are more complex than others and deserve more depth. One thing that upsets me more than anything else is seeing and hearing of people losing in trading.

There has been an endless stream of people coming here since I joined BP and so many of them were clearly committed and intelligent people with a strong ambition to “make it”. Most of them no longer post here. Is that because they have succeeded spectacularly and moved on or is it because, well, you know………….

I have yet to see anyone start a journal here as a beginner and reach a stage where they announce they have built up enough capital to go full-time - why is that?

So if I have missed anyone and they happen to be reading this, hopefully they will report in and tell us how it went and how they are getting on as full-time traders……and how much capital they think it takes! :smiley:

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@anon46773462

One thing I have to say…I belong to some hard-core sites where they don’t do babies. They give it as is…Either you understand, or you don’t. I suspect your flock has moved on to sites like that after graduating Pipsology. I would.

I will start a journal for you from start to finish. I evolved to Price Action Trading, ignoring technical analysis as a benchmark. Only using Support/Resistance (Relevant to price action) and HMA (Personal favorite)…Nothing else technical indicator wise.

I have created my new life account on Friday, please give me 1 week to set everything up. You will have your journal on a brand new life account on Monday the 20th of May…Only running on Price Action Trading. I am prepared to put my money where my mouth should be.

Will this do, Manxx?

@Ignis_Draco @anon46773462 @dpaterso @Clint I ended up creating a new topic on this forum because I was curious about others opinions of the realistic needs to be full-time. I know you all already left your points there. But if you want, feel free to say what one would truly need to be a full-time trader as realistically as humanly possible.

@Zhadow45

Short answer…Needs analysis

How much do you want to invest versus growth %? Trading is high risk, so reward is high when successful. Damage for life, when you get it wrong, hence the fact that most people put their money in a money market, or relevant safeguarded environment. Trading is not an option for nest egging…Trading is for capital gains.

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Not really. You are talking apples instead of oranges. I was referring to the journey of a Newbie from start to graduating to full-time trader - not just another trader showing his trades. But it will be interesting to see for its own value as a PA trader’s journal, even if it is something different to what we are talking about here! :slight_smile:

What do you mean? I have no “flock” here! I hardly even post here very much. I am only interested in trading and contributing when I see someone serious about their business. I have no interest in the puerile macho tit for tat of those who hide behind internet anonymity in order to play to some imagined hero-worshipping audience - like some enjoy on other, less well moderated sites! :slight_smile:

So why are you here still?

It will be interesting to see what it produces! :smiley:

@anon46773462

I am still here because I don’t like you! Go away and I will do the same!!!

Please don’t report me, Manxx, I got a crap load of beatings from the Admins allready.

See, record time words used!!!

Joke…AKA JOKE

@Zhadow45

Truthfully… Successful traders are quiet by nature, they will never tell you what you want to hear. You will add to the noise with your trades, they prefer it being quiet while they set up their trades.

God’s honest truth.

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Although that is very true. I don’t necessarily just want responses from fulltime traders. More so just everyone’s opinion. you gave your opinion just early on this thread so clearly people can have one without being fulltime. I like to hear people harsh realistic ideas of what traders need to be. It helps keep you grounded you know?

Haha! I am glad I have had some impact on someone here. Whether I should be upset by such a statement really depends on what I think of the person who says it - and you already know the answer to that! :joy:

Seems we have exhausted sensible conversation on this thread so I will leave you to it. Try to behave, I know it is difficult………

@anon46773462

I’m getting the bottle of brandy and Need for Speed Most Wanted…2 Classics.

You children can play for now :slight_smile:

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Enjoy! :+1:

I gotta start looking at next week’s prospects. See you there! :smiley:

Wow this was explosive :woman_facepalming:t4::woman_facepalming:t4::woman_facepalming:t4:Back to the drawing board