Is Forex Gambling?

Consider money management on forex versus in horse racing. At one time a trader enters a forex GY short position and risks R=2% of his $10,000 account (|R|=$200) SL=120pips TP=2R, after two hours he exits at 40pips ($66.7) loss, or after one day I exit at 750pips after moving the Take Profit to accommodate new volatility in those first two hours. That is money management where the risk is not static, or the amount to be lost or gained is not set in stone. For horse racing if I open a wager on a certain horse for $200 in a pool of $1,000 or however it goes & the horse wins, I take whatever. If it looses I lose my $200 the whole of it in one stroke with nothing I can do about it since itā€™s a do-or-die game of chance. That should set a wide berth in the practical difference between the two types of risk. All business cannot be classified as gambling by monetary, logical, legal or dictionary definition. Setting up a restaurant business is just that, itā€™s not gambling. If all business is indeed gambling then we have a problem with this new world order! Then that stops this discussion right here, too much philosophy. What do you guys think?

The view of the progression of one trade as a series of bets / gambling instances is rather complex compared to the simple stated fact: a trader opens 1 trade on EurUsd or Djia h4 timeframe & price action does its thing for three days, upon which he exits the trade. Unless its one big gamble I donā€™t figure to see it as tick by tick bets. I enter and exit the position once & I try to ensure that stoploss=150p doesnā€™t get hit since Iā€™m trading multiple pairs. The effect on balance is sealed when I close the round-deal (entry-exit) just like in any market. I go off to catch street weather (and so does my broker after placing my entry orders) or enter the forums so I am not actively agonizing over the tick-by-tick risk unlike most gambling. It all boils down to knowing how to spot the best positions, hold the good ones and exit the bad ones. The forex market is so small as to affect any liquidity in the total market, I agree. That more so ensures that deals are not opposing. I should think much foreign-ex by banks, govt and industry is for trade & payouts, very little is speculative? So there is no way one deal is stacked against the other. Try closing one and tell me why the other doesnā€™t auto-close or fall into disarray?

Being the only real asset by economic definition makes land one of the choicest instruments for speculation. By ā€˜rock-bottomā€™ I meant like the bottom of a recession, when the market (real estate) is quite oversold and prices are touching all-time lows. It doesnā€™t have to be countrywide (which is even better in terms of offering many such opportunities) but in his book he shows it being state-wide, or even along a street facing major dusty roadwork for next one-&-a-half years, and waiting it out. Within three years itā€™s paying good return on capital. That is not a gamble although it is undertaking all sort risk. With skills Kyosaki teaches in his book series and game (who has played it, I havenā€™t) one should be able to explain a basic strategy to tackle the US real-estate market, given capital and five / seven years. The only difference is I have to work without mortgage asset financing since banks wonā€™t lend.

Other point would be that gambling is specifically referred to as a ā€˜game of chanceā€™ which I donā€™t think gets anywhere near practical view of forex. Again, there is a demonstrable prediction aspect in forex. This coupled with the manageable aspect of trading risk is skill worthy enough for an investor like for hedge funds or banks though loans to put money in. I doubt banks lend to gambling, directly or through leveraging positions. They wonā€™t lend to someone who doesnā€™t demonstrate an edge practically. Again I pointed out that not all uncertain or risky events are gambling. Also forex can be arranged into a school course, whereas gambling lessons can be hard to figure or teach, otherwise your local prestigious university offers degree courses in gambling finance. Further, the riskiest business venture is options and futures, and that is not gambling but legit business in which even Middle-East governments & firms invest through, like bonds.

It is rather obtuse for someone to call anyone on this forum stupid or slow because one wouldnā€™t know how fast the other rode his bike as a kid or how one got his first computer or the colour of anyoneā€™s teeth. The guys I know doing the charts are total whiz, they can wire anything voltage without looking and can figure out how to do just about everything from the internet and books by themselves when left to it and they didnā€™t even have to be top of the class! Some canā€™t or havenā€™t gotten there yet but it adds absolutely nothing by insisting on pointing it out. Kindly refrain.

I already explained this as clearly as possible a forex trade consists of multiple bets, your trading platform allows you to easily make complex bets such as this because it is coded to do so, you could do the same thing manually by giving a bookmaker $1000 and tell him to put $50 on your favorite football team on every game they play untill you either run out of money or you tell him to stop.
In forex each bet is on the next price quote, the stake is set in stone it is determined by your lot size untill you change it.

I dont know what you mean by a pool of $1000.
When you bet on a horse the bookmaker quotes you the odds.
You may choose a horse and the bookmaker quotes you 10-1.
You have two options you can either take that price at 10-1 or you can leave it open, this means you will get the odds as they are the last time they are quoted before the race begins.
The bookmaker can change that price in the days and hours leading up to the race depending on how heavily that horse is bet on in comparison to others in the same race.
If you take the price at 10-1 it means your bet of $200 will win $2000 if your horse wins plus you get your stake money back.

It is specifically referred to as a game of chance in ONE of the dictionary defintions, there are more than one in every dictionary, if the activity being discussed falls under any one of those definitions it is gambling.
I cant believe I am actually sitting here explaining how to use a dictionary.

Taken from Miriam Websters Online Dictionary

Definition of GAMBLE
intransitive verb
1a : to play a game for money or property b : to bet on an uncertain outcome 2: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance
transitive verb
1: to risk by gambling : wager
2: venture, hazard
ā€” gamĀ·bler-blər\ noun
Examples of GAMBLE
Heā€™s been drinking and gambling heavily.
He would often gamble hundreds of dollars on a hand of poker.
The mayor is gambling with the cityā€™s future.
people who lost money gambling in the stock market
The mayor is gambling that the new policies will help rather than hurt the city.

One would call someone stupid if others had taken the time to explain over and over again to them a simple concept like:
What the definition of gambling is,
Why the question ā€œis forex gamblingā€ is directly dependant on the college dictionary definition of the word,
Why gambling doesnt have to be about random outcomes, why gambling does not have to be a game of chance, and many other explanations, examples, comparisons over and over and then after all that they still say something to the effect of, forex is not like casino games so forex is not gambling.
That demonstrates an inability to understand, a lack of intelligence, commonly known as stupidity.

Ok.

With that thereā€™s nothing else left to say, Iā€™ll go work on my stupidityā€¦

This is unbelievable.

SDC do you think itā€™s needed to call someone stupid in his face when he posted his point of view AND exposed his arguments, in a clever way?

I think you are matured enough (age) from other posts I read from youā€¦ but honestly just because you disagree with him donā€™t give you the right to put yourself in a higher position and call him stupid.

A lot of people here lately could use wiser words on a forum with an unknown person. Not having him in front of you as a mean to say things that otherwise you wouldnā€™t makes for a poor spirit.

For new people like me who just wants to learn is disgusting having to read again and again people resorting to personal attacks. :mad:

120 posts and no conclusion?

Right.

Probably not, I apologise for saying that chizzenpips.
I got aggravated because I have tried so many times to explain why this is gambling and so many people keep reverting back to the same thing over and over and producing arguments that have no factual basis, again I apologise for saying you are stupid chizzenpips, your posts are well written and intelligent it is obvious you are not stupid.

Hereā€™s a summary of this debate on whether forex is gambling:

Forex is NOT gambling.

Oh, yes IT IS gambling.

No, it is NOT.

Yes, it is!

Is not!

Is, too!

IS NOT!

IS, TOO!

IS NOT!!

IS, TOO!!!

ā€¦et-bloody-cetera

Iā€™ve been away for a few daysā€¦this is the next best/funniest post Iā€™ve read to it not being very smart for eggs to climb wallsā€¦:D:D

Excellent point [B]Clint[/B], [B]Honorary FX Member.[/B]
I suspect this issue will never be resolved.
I have read and stored your previous posts on the matter for future reference.

Despite all the differing opinions I do wish we could differentiate betweenā€¦

gambling.
specultation.
risk.
exploitation.

These terms have been used interchangeably on this thread and I do not think that they all mean the same thing.

This thread has grown a lot since I last posted.
I confess lack of time to post since my time is fully cut out with work I have to do on my own thread plus many other duties including finding a new home.

I am NOT trying to avoid the debate as SDC is suggesting by grasping at straws. :wink:

[U]I am genuinely short of time[/U] and having to re sort my priorities this weekend, my posts here are of least importance.
Summer is coming here in the southern hemisphere and I will take holidays in November with lots of work before then. :cool:

But as promised I will answer [B]Simbafxā€™s [/B]post about selling lottery tickets etc.

Maybe a couple more posts after that and its quits for me unless I see a real time opportunity. :wink:

[B]Next post I answer Simbafxā€¦[/B]

[B]OK, here we goā€¦[/B]

For the sake of simplicity, I have edited some of the repeats in your pointsā€¦

Granted.
Agree totally.

You can apply the same argument to a slot machine. You entered your dollar, and thereā€™s no reason why you couldnt sell the ability to play to another gambler.

Granted.
Agree totally.

At a push, you could sell a poker hand ā€¦

Granted.
Agree totally.

Any other examples like this you can quote, I will agree with too. :slight_smile:

[B]Now lets look at theseā€¦[/B]

In each case, person A has the gambling rights (ticket, slot machine, poker hand etc)
He sells these ā€œrightsā€ to person B thro various means.

I have no problem here.
Selling these ā€œrightsā€ to person B in each case is a perfectly noble transaction.
In the exchange, both parties get something.
Person A, in disposing of the gamble, gets money in return (payment).
Person B gets the gambling rights.
To take this even further, person B could even sell his rights again in a fair exchange to person C.

[U][I]However, lets look at the gambleā€¦[/I][/U]

Person B has the rights now, not person A.
Person B can now do one of 2 thingsā€¦

  1. Sell the rights in a [U]fair exchange[/U] to person C.

  2. Enter into the gamble and [U]forfeit your money[/U] (or valuables) at the time you [U]make an entry[/U] into the transaction.
    Unless the gambling outcome is in your favour (you win) you stay with [U]nothing.[/U]
    (Effectively a loss).
    (Gambling involves an [U]unfair exchange[/U] where the output is determined not by work input but rather by the dictates of a third party number generator or similar uncertain set up).

[U]Therefore, I differentiate betweenā€¦[/U]

the [U]fair exchange[/U] in passing the gambling rights from Person A >>> Person B >>> Person C (etc).
AND
the unfair exchange (not dishonest but unfair) exchange where Person B consumates the gamble and receives nothing (unless he wins).

[U]Please note[/U]

The terms ā€œbalanced exchangeā€ or ā€œunbalanced exchangeā€ may be better terms than fair/unfair.
(the term ā€œunfairā€ suggests exploitation - not meant to be the case here).

You talk about a house purchase. The same rules apply. Thereā€™s limited liquidity in the housing market, ā€¦

Granted.
But I am not sure what liquidity or lack of has to do with gambling.

You talk about exchanging goods, at a camera shop. ā€¦
The camera shop owner is just as likely to do a deal on $10,000 worth of unused lottery cards as he is on $10,000 worth of gold.

Granted.
But that does not change the matter above.
Just a case of Person A selling to Person B in a [U]fair exchange.[/U]

In a [U]fair exchange,[/U] both parties are getting something.
[U]This is guarenteed.[/U]

In an [U]unfair exchange[/U] (gamble) the party entering the gamble loses or wins.
In your gamble the exchange is NOT guarenteed.

[B]So, in conclusion, I believe that my analysis in post #94, page 10 was correct.[/B]

Probably not so much a lack of factual basis as an incorrect interpretation of those facts.

After receiving a whole week of abuse, I can tell you it is not pleasant.

I was amazed at the number of PMā€™s I was getting by traders who observed the abuse with a great deal of disapproval of it, and congratulating me in withstanding it. :slight_smile:

The power is behind the scenes!! :smiley: :smiley:

Not that I wish to reply to this long post, but I note that [B]chizzenpips [/B]has definitely seen something with very clear insight that the rest of you have not!! :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

The operative words here are ā€¦[U]with money they never had[/U],

In a fair transaction, I am assuming you own your money.

If you do not, then you are using someone elseā€™s money, and in that case, any potential transaction may have risk attached to it (note I differentiate between [U]risk [/U]and [U]gamble[/U]).

In the case you specify, the risk is so high that it may well have started to enter the sphere of being a gamble!! :eek: :eek:

Errrā€¦NO.

I donā€™t now much about poker outside of a casino, but in all the others there is a house edge against you (even in horse racing).

That isā€¦

the pay-off < odds.

For example, a progression system [U]cannot [/U]win at roulette.
The house edge will destroy you.

There is a way you CAN WIN at roulette.
It is called [U]visual balistics.[/U] ([B]still gambling because you are getting something for nothing[/B]).

[U]Visual balistics[/U] is the science + art of visually tracking the ball from the start, calculating the fall-off point and placing that bet before ā€œno more betsā€ are called.

I know an enormous amount about that stuff but that is another story. :smiley: :smiley:

[U]OK, my last post[/U], then I am done here. :cool:

You are making a very valid point for me, [B]dhoee476 [/B]!! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Another trader, who has been on this forum for many years, (no names mentioned) sent me a PM after the abuse.
That trader sides with you and me (for reasons you can guess) and very strongly advised me to no longer waste my time posting here.

Like gambling itself, posting here is not going to be productive.

So, yes, I am taking that advice from both you and the person who sent me the PM. :slight_smile:

I did note that you differentiated between risk and gamble and I find it odd that you would want us to take note of your misconception about the definitions of those words

Exactly!!!
Same in Forex, you are controlling big bucks with a small fraction of money you have to put up.
With the computers today the broker (software) wanā€™t let you go below what you actually have in your account. The software will just close out your trades BEFORE you owe money to the broker.In the (old) days you got a margin call and had to transfer your losses.
It still is possible to get a margin call from your broker on Monday morning. Market opened with a gap because of the weekend and usually maintenance is done over the weekend on the server too.
In any case, we are controlling relative big money with a small amount and that alone makes it ā€œgamblingā€.:smiley:
Yet, I agree it is a endless debate, neither side will win or loose and neither side can convince the other side.
Itā€™s time to let it go:D
Happy Trading

To my knownledge and the little I know about FOREX, Forex is not gambling.
Simple answer to your question.
If you rush to forex trading with the sole aim of making overnight huge money, then, you are gambling. You have to take your time and apply the basic principles of Fundamental and Technical analysis to lead you to the path of profiting from your trade. Just be patient and learn, it will not be long to know the difference between gambling and informed forex trading.:):):slight_smile:

Well, gambling is not always an uninformed practice. There are well informed gamblers that act accordingly.