Multi-Time Frame Trend Trading

So as I move into swing and position trading, I want to begin with discussing the subject of overtrading. Since more pips will usually be at risk in these longer term trades, taking on too much risk and overtrading can really harm results.

I’ll usually enter day trades with very tight stops of 15 to 30 pips. The fact is though, as soon as a trade moves about 6 to 10 pips against me right after entry, I know it’s no good and I will exit early and try for a better entry on that pair or another. After a trade has been running for a while and is well into the positive, I don’t worry about it being a bad entry because it has already proved to be good. We trade our beliefs about price. Certainly I don’t believe price will move 6 to 10 pips against me on entry, or I would have waited for a better entry. If price moves 6 to 10 pips against me on entry, my belief about which way price would move right after entry has been invalidated and I will quickly exit any time my belief about price is invalidated. The stops of 15 to 30 pips are only there to protect against the quick spikes that often occur at lower timeframes. If you have the discipline to exit as soon as price moves differently than you believed it would, even running a stop of 40 to 60 pips wouldn’t have much effect on whether you stay in a trade or not. So within 30 minutes or so after entry (and maybe 10M or less in a fast market), if price moves 10 pips negative against me, I exit. It was a bad entry by definition. Maybe it will come back, maybe it won’t, maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly. It doesn’t mater, the price isn’t behaving according to my belief about it, so I just exit and try again. This is a matter of trading discipline and it must be mastered to be successful. This is just my personal rule that I have found to be effective from my own post-trade analysis. You may find others that are more effective for you, but of course, you won’t find them if you don’t look for them.

I also set limits and objectives in my trading plan to prevent overtrading. In day trading, I will not allow more than two entry losses in the same pair in a day. So that really winds up being a max 10 pip entry loss plus spread, say 3 pips, or a max of 26 pips lost in a single pair per day. After losing two entry attempts in a single pair in a day, that pair is put in the cooler for the rest of the day no matter what.

I also have a maximum number of trades per day that I allow in day trading set at 5 trades per day max in my trading plan. Whether a very small entry loss, or a huge win, every trade counts and when the count hits 5, I’m done for the day, win or lose. It’s amazing how much your trade selection improves when you set a maximum number of trades per day to be allowed in your trading plan.

I have a loss limit set at 50 pips. Any day I lose 50 pips day trading just can’t be defined as a good day. I’ll quit and study the rest of the day when that happens.

I have a profit target of 500 pips per day. Of course, many days I don’t make that target, but many I do. I like to have a stretch target and that’s where mine is set now. You should set your own based on your own post trade analysis. Your profit target should be hit 50% of the time. If you are hitting it less, it should be lowered. If you are hitting it more, it should be raised. But I don’t necessarily quit trading right on 500 pips. I will allow a give back of up to 10 percent max of my daily profit target, before quiting, so say I hit 560 pips after a few very good multi lot trades, I must quit if I give back 56 pips on other trades for a final profit of 504 pips that day. I almost always will hit my max trade limit for the day before hitting my max give back after profit target, but it’s there anyway to protect my daily profits and I’m glad it is.

These limits and targets have been devised for me by me to prevent overtrading. I can’t say what the best ones for you are without carefully examining your trading logs and journal and that’s work you need to do for yourself. You may find additional limits and targets improve your trading beyond this simple bare minimum set. This post trade analysis is something you need to do briefly at the close of every trading day and in detail every weekend while the market is closed. If you aren’t doing it, I’d bet my account that you are losing and giving back more pips than you will after you try it. You can find more information and ideas on setting good trading limits and targets with a Google search.

There must be at least 20 methods to stop overtrading your Forex account and I’ve probably tried most if not all of them. You can just google stop over trading Forex or something like that and read about them all. I have made most trading mistakes at least 5 times, but this one takes much more work for me to avoid than any other. I’ve probably done it 5000 times in my career and only recently within the last decade gotten it well under control. This will destroy your profits and continually eat away at your trading capital.

You must evaluate your trading honestly to be successful. If you see any overtrading at all in your trading, you must put in whatever effort necessary, including halting trading altogether if necessary, to eliminate it completely from your trading. This pip eating monster must be killed for ever and never allowed to raise it ugly head in your trading again. It’s probably 1000 times more important to stop overtrading than it is to make a good entry. If you have overtrading in your account and are putting in huge effort to get better entries and no effort to eliminate overtrading, you are doing it just backward and need to rearrange your priorities.

Some of you have some serious work to do on your plan to prevent overtrading. I’ll help if I can, but you have to do your own work on this. The good news is, the longer you work on these things, the easier they become and the better results you have.

Postscript Note: Here is just one article on overtrading pulled off quickly from a Google search. It doesn’t offer as many solutions as many others, but it does echo the dangers of overtrading

Danger of Over-Trading in Forex - Reasons and Solutions

Hey Grav,

Just want to give you some feedback. I had never heard the word “Forex” until January of this year. Looking into it it seemed like something I could possibly…possibly…make a career of or at least earn a little extra income.

I’ve been a real estate appraiser for 25 years, self employed and successful during that time but you do get tired of the same job after a while. Needless to say working in the R.E. world now is not the best place to be. I’m tired of pissing people off, being the bearer of bad news of how much their home has devalued over the past 2 years.

Anyway I’ve read through the Babypips school twice and will probably read it 2 more times before all is said and done. I have explored many of the strategies out there. I have had at least 5 demo accounts with different brokers, webinars etc, etc.

After following Tyman’s thread almost from the beginning I felt like I was getting a free BSBA in Forex, not just from him but from some really sharp contributors as well. But when you jumped on board I felt like the education got turbocharged. Although I still don’t understand how to manage multiple timeframes with ease it’s OK as I knew nothing of Forex 4 months ago.

So…I am a clean slate as far as trading Forex goes. I don’t have any good or bad habits yet, no war wounds, no battle scars, only techincal errors that come with learning. Although I know I will have mental challanges when my hard earned money is on the line I will have your words of wisdom to refer to.

You have made it perfectly clear to have a solid trading plan and not deviate from it. To protect my “sacred capital” and how to do it. To not overtrade and why and numerous other “tips” that will undoubtedly help in my endeavor. You also have made it perfectly clear that this is not easy and I BELEIVE YOU!!! I have actually stopped trading for the moment and am spending all my free time analyzing pairs. One at a time…charts with comments and observations each in their on tidy little Word Document. Until this is done I don’t feel like I can make an educated trade with your method.
And I like doing it. It’s actually fun. I can’t wait to get to the next lower time frame to see what story it is telling me. Your right, after spending a couple of hours with a pair you do get a feel for what “should” happen next. The “picture in your mind” you speak of.

So…We had a little lull here in posts so I chose this time to post such a long winded disertation but I feel like sometime in the future some other newbie will come along and I just want to encourage them to follow the path you have cleared with no shortcuts. You and Tyman have given me the tools and the confidence to forge ahead and do this thing the right way. You guys are willing to spend the time and effort to share your knowledge with us and I am certainly willing to spend the time and effort to be successful and have fun doing it in the process.

Again, Gracias

Yes I did. This USD JPY trade helped make that week the best I’ve ever had. In hindsight (20-20 as always) I took profit too early and maybe could have left one lot running but I don’t feel too bad as this wasn’t in my plan. That was the day of falling knives anyway and you will see that price has since returned to the expected support level around ~92

People might recall I also had a plan for the USD CHF which didn’t turn out so well at first. I got stopped out on May 6 and had to wait until May 10 for the uptrend proper to resume. In the end, this trade also made some decent pips and was closed on May 14.

So; it turns out that all this time I thought I was day trading I was actually doing both swing and day trading. With this in mind, the second account I set up for position trading has been given over to swing trading and my main account will be used for day trading. At present I have a short on Cable in my swing account which has been running for a few days and now has 5 lots on with an average profit of over 100 pips per lot. I am using a loose stop of 50 pips as this is quite a volatile pair and I expect a few retracements over the week.

Lest anyone think I am winning everything; I would like to highlight that before I came across the concept of Price Action on the Forex Factory and Baby Pips forums, I was trying to trade using a plethora of indicators and losing 4 times out of 5. I was overtrading to a ridiculous degree, having bought into the idea that scalping the M1 & M5 TF could make me rich. M30 was ancient history. What a fool I was! I lost so much money that I was starting to think I would be one of the 95% that you hear so much about.

The breakthrough came about when I took the plunge and started participating in Tymen’s & Graviton’s threads. The difference between being an active participant and a lurker is immense. I would urge all of you lurkers out there to come on in; the water is fine once you get over the initial shock.

Hi hachiko,

would you tell how you going deal with upcoming retracement?
first, what percentage(fibs) of the movement you expect retracement?
will you close your lots before it began or will you let the trade run?

would be good if Graviton can discuss how to deal with retracements. Is it always reasonable to close the trade?

RenaLa,
I closed out all 5 short trades at 1.4308 just about that Big Round Number (BRN) because I expected a bounce off that suport zone. I then re-entered 3 short trades at 1.4331, 1.4359 & 1.4405, which was an error as there was no approach for dealing with a retracement in my plan, and hence I got it wrong by jumping the gun. :o

I’ll have to work on that component of my trading plan.

I didn’t use any Fibs as I am trying to get away from anything other than the bare bones on my charts.

what rule have you used to re-enter with 3 short trade? what TF?
I know that Fib levels act like support and resistant, which I use in case I would like to enter in the trend which already streams
Fibonacci levels are not indicators

I agree that fibs provide some guide as to S/R levels, although the jury is still out on whether this is a self-fulfilling prophecy or not. I prefer to hand draw mine at the TF above. My personal preference that’s all.

As to my approach for the retracement, I used the un-tried and un-tested “seat of my pants” method on the M30 TF with help from M15 and 8,5,3 full stochastic.

Thank you for the kind words. I’m sure you’ll do fine in this business. You already know how to approach it as a business and not as a gambling trip to Vegas. That in itself puts you ahead of most new traders. The good news is your approach is sound. A monthly chart changes very little day to day and the weekly also changes very slowly, so what ever effort you put in those carries forward well. It only takes a few minutes to glance at the daily and 4H and you are then ready to look for trades. I’d suggest concentrating on the Majors first. That’s where I make most of my pips. Com Dolls and popular crosses are probably good for a 2nd tier of study. As the picture of what price is doing clears up for you, you have a really good basis for your trades. Things get simpler and much less confusing then. If price moves according to the picture you have created, you trade it. If not you exit quickly and go off in search of another pretty picture.

That all sounds very philosophical, but it can and should be be translated into hard and fast rules within a trading plan to govern your trading so emotions don’t come into play at all. Let me know if you have any questions in regard to this process and I’ll try to answer the best I can.

Happy Trading

I think everyone has the message by now. I didn’t mean to scare the newbies, but sometimes they need a reality check to make more progress.

Glad you are doing well Hachiko. Be patient and beware the King Kong effect. Sounds like you are doing fine.

Once I’m into good profit, I am not going to give back more than 50% of my profit. I just won’t do it. I will often take the lot off the top with the most profit in it when a major retracement begins and see if I can ride through with the rest. I will also not let the rest ever turn negative from that point, because I’d rather exit with a small profit and re-enter at a better point. These major trends don’t go on forever and 50% retracements before continuation are common. Just as a general rule, once I’m into good profit I will never give more than 50% of it back. Of course, giving back less is even better :cool:

Hi Graviton,
With your 22 years of experience you know how the picture must look. How we are newbie, can know that PA is behaving appropriate or not? And what should we paint in our minds? Can you explain it in relation to the BB DNA or we are talking about different things?
Also I wonder how do you deal with PA retracements?

Is 50% of retracement common for any pair? :rolleyes:

Hi Graviton,

Wow, been away for a long weekend and so much has happened, and Tymen is back:D

I am really pleased that you have decided to talk about swing trading. I think that this will fit much better for me as i still have to work 9-5 and dont have all that much time once thats finished due to familly commitments etc

Need to go over the posts that i have missed and catch up, looking forward to whats to come.

Keep up the great work.

Indy

Graviton I have a question regarding interest charged on currency pairs held over night and for the long term. Do you avoid long short swing trades for pairs that charge a higher interest rate or is the rate something negligible when dealing with swing trades?

Grav,

Thanks for clarifying how you trade news releases. It was along the lines of what I thought would be the procedure of dealing with these spike causing events.

Just finished reading the weekend posts too.

Once again, some fantastic insights into how to develop a successful and resilient trading plan. Thanks for sharing your experience, I look forward to toasting you as I sip wine aboard my luxury yacht someday.

I’m going to keep daytrading for now, because I can feel my urge to always be in the market receding, so I want to keep working at that. Swing trading is for my future, when my capital is a little higher.

:smiley:

This is an excellent post, Graviton!! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Top information - one of the best posts you have produced so far besides your 5 contract entry scale in method!! :slight_smile:

[B]I commend this stuff to every reader!![/B]

I have a question about stops. It is clear that we are moving away from the trading model outlined in BB DNA of using the outer wick of the extreme candle as our stop. This is to be expected, as even on the 30m chart this can easily reach as high as 50-80 pips!

Graviton has talked about using a 20-pip default SL, but with allowances for different times of the day and the diversity in the volatility of the various currency pairs. I am wondering if anyone to this point has devoted the time to figuring a formula, based on the ADR of the major pairs, for setting stop loss values up for each pair. Since this number is used as the factor for the multi-lot system, I’d think this would be a good exercise.

I was thinking of having a 3x5 card on hand detailing the stop values for each pair during the three types of trading periods Grav has described in previous posts. That way you know what values would be targeted in a multi-lot strategy at a glance, taking the emotion out of the decision as Graviton so wisely advises.

tymen you have just said
"The stop loss is set at the extreme wick point away from the CBL of the extreme candle"
As I know wick of the extreme candle much longer then 6-10 pips

I think its unreasonable to close the trade if the price go against 6-10 pips in case you trade daily chart

there is should be a way how to find that reversal candle on the lower timeframe charts that would match the reversal level for the daily chart

As I found out in some cases we must search for such reversal candle somewhere by SR line or by trend line
but not sure how to recognize that some extreme candle of any lower TF would be made reversal level on daily chart as I cant see ahead