Since A is not the same as B which is not the same as C you are making a completely meaningless logical analogy here.
in my eyes C forms a direct relationship to B through A. Yes there is B without C when doing a 1:1 but when you have C at your disposal Your A you can control changes, which changes the B… its related
You’ve made my point.
if your only point is this “The pip value on 10,000 EUR/USD is $1 regardless of whether the leverage is 10:1 or 1000:1 -rhody” man that is weak to even skip that stone across the lake, dont you agree? of course a pip value is always set to a certain lot size but we use leverage when we access our brokers to get a certain position size trade to begin with its part of the process, to say leverage has nothing to do with it
I have no idea what that whole skip the stone thing means.
What i read when i see stuff like the numbers in this thread is when they are saying 1 buck per pip at 100:1 and 2 bux at 200:1 they are just not saying the long format of saying 1 buck and 2 lots = 2 bux and just cutting to the chase. and showing cummalitive pip value i dont really see a probelm with this.
You insert words for the author, but in doing so you assume that the author meant it the way you read it and/or that others who read it do that as well. I don’t. There are a lot of people here who don’t understand leverage and are trying to sort it all out. When we make assumptions and aren’t specific about what we mean we don’t help the situation.
Here’s a perfect example. Someone on this board (can’t remember who) actually did an experiment in which he put on the same size position in several different demo accounts, each with different leverage settings to see if the pip values were the same. Of course he found out exactly what we know to be true - they were all the same.
Hmmm. Same size positions equals same pip values despite different leverage. Kinda like what I’ve been saying here.
Of course you’ll asking whether he changed the actual leverage used (gearing), arguing that it’s changing one’s gearing which impacts pip values because that directly implies changes to one’s position size (assuming any leverage is employed at all). And of course you’d be right. But no one ever got specific about the type leverage in question, did they? Most of the time when a newbie says 100:1 or 200:1 they are talking about their account leverage setting not their actual leverage in use.
“Position size is a variable to determine a pip value - rhody”, ok I can agree with that.
“Leverage “only” plays a part in terms of how large a position you could put on…It’s just a ratio… doesn’t impact pip value - rhody”
I’m making a completely meaningless logical analogy here?
Rhody… I just put an A to Position size in your sentence above which you says determines pip value which I said is B this is your analogy not mine
I just put letters to it.
If A “determines” B which is what your analogy in the first statement is saying and C leverage in 2nd sentence determines A
if this is meaningless logic then why skip the stone is what i was getting at… why bring it up if your not even following your own logic
I merely had a question as to why you say it isnt related
it takes leverage to get a certain position size the position size is the end product regardless of how much leverage was used to get to the position size to equal a pip value it takes leverage to get to it with an online broker/dealer
If you want to spin circles I will drop it
and i didnt make your point because you said leverage doesnt effect pip value
If you have read somewhere blowing through my post and not giving a second to think what I was asking you to clarify. I never said you couldnt get same position size with different leverages this shows you gave my question absolutely no thought. I said leverage plays a role in determining position size which determines pip value you said it was just a ratio and was unrelated to pip value
I’m asking these questions because if im having a hard time following your answers im sure a brand new person to forex would have hard time following your answer I dont see the probelm you had when you got to the person word of movement in beginning of the thread.
Im not busting balls but why dont you clarify what you was talking about maybe give some insight
You said A “equals” B, not “determines”. There’s a difference. That’s why I said your analogy was flawed.
And I never said it wasn’t related.
Im not busting balls but why dont you clarify what you was talking about maybe give some insight
Here’s the bottom line point I’m trying to make (after must twisting and turning).
It’s about being specific. If you say trading at 100:1 leverage equates to $1/pip, I don’t know if you’re account leverage is 100:1 and you’re just trading at gearing sufficient to do a mini lot, or if you’re maxing out a $100 account to put on a mini lot position. Without knowing that I can’t say whether shifting to 200:1 leverage doubles your gearing, thus your position size and therefore your pip value (second example) or is just expanding your available leverage and thus is a completely irrelevant thing to your position size, and by extension your pip value (first example).
From a wider perspective, it really comes down to the fact that thoughts about leverage really only need to enter the discussion at the point where one has decided upon the size of position he/she intends to put on (based of course on the risk the trader is willing to take). Then the question is whether there is sufficient available leverage to do so.
I dont think anyone is actually answering Juddbo’s question… but i’ve read it a few times and I dont actually understand what you are asking Juddbo… I’m no expert but I might be able to help… Maybe you can rephrase the question??
I am also using Oanda and just opened a real account. Maybe I can help you answer this, or learn something by finding the answer to this, before I lose my money through doing something stupid!
And about Leverage and PipValue…
I understand and agree with Rhody… Leverage doesnt affect pip-‘value’. Position size affects pip-‘value’.
However, the greater the the leverage you have the greater the position you can take, so you are able to have a greater pip-‘value’ (due to a higher position).
With different leverages, but same position size however, pip-‘value’ will stay the same.
Thanks sinn1. I guess Rhody and kangi are both saying that pip value is not changed by leverage if keeping same positions size or it can be changed by leverage thru increased position size. I guess that makes sense. I will open a couple demo accounts and trade multiple scenarios on leverage and position size to better understand the effect on returns and risk.
The question, I was basically asking is this: If I want to risk only 3% of my account value (pre-leverage) AND i am utilizing a stop loss then all that really matters is making sure that my stop loss is equal to the amount of the 3% risk threshold I have set for myself. For example: $10,000 account (pre-leverage), 3% trade of account value = $300. Set stop loss but adjust position size so that the loss only equals the $300 I wish to risk (100 pip stop or 60 pip stop means i will have to adjust positoin size and/or leverage to maintain the $300 risk). correct?
The only way leverage could affect your risk threshold is if you are nearing margin calls, and there’s just no excuse to be in margin call territory. Risk should be controlled with position size and stops, both of which can be adjusted at the drop of a hat.
Leverage is an account parameter for your account and can’t be easily changed on the spot, and even if you could, the only thing you could adjust is when you are margin called, and what good is that??
I want to give you a real example of leverage, to show you why it is not effective at controlling your risk.
I have 50:1 leverage for my account, with a balance of $3,400.
This means I can open a minilot (10k) position, and all I have to front is $200. So I could open about 17 minilots (3400/200), with no room for error.
Or I could open about 11 minilots, each with 100pip stop (3400/200+100), a more realistic scenario.
But wait a minute, that means I’m risking 11minilots x 100pips = $1,100! That’s 33% Risk on the table, and thats at 50:1 leverage, one of the smallest offered on most retail platforms. So I hope you can see that you need a much finer way of adjusting your risk (ie. Stops and position sizes) than leverage alone, because even the low leverage settings open the door for way too much risk.
If however you have a very small account, say under $1000, then you might want some higher leverage so you aren’t using all your capital on the margin requirements, giving you room to set your risk with stops, rather than margin calls.
Yes that is kinda of the point i was getting at youve kinda saw what was being said…
It isnt that there was and spinning or twisting of anything. Maybe I should have used and arrow instead of an equals sign but the thought behind the paragraphs clearly shows what my intentions was from the beginning.
Rhody is attacking the probelm from the position size, which isnt incorrect.
if you have xxx position size the pip value will remain constant regardless of leverage.
I’m look at the probelm backward from him but see the same answers, I look at the leverage that is needed to get that specific position size…
My own question, which I will drop is, since i dont want to be views as a person that is twisting stuff. he made a comment that leverage was just a ratio and didnt factor in when looking at pip value that comes from position size. which is correct if you only base eveything on looking at position size to begin with and not what got you to that freaking position size to begin with. I just had a probelm with that cause i look at it from the angle it takes xxx leverage to get that specific position size to begin with. I just chalk it up to he looks at the position size as absolute and looks backward that once you have arrived at that postion size, leverage is meaningless, that is fine, but to say leverage is just a ratio and doesnt factor in to what a pip value is is misleading and bias to looking at it from one side of the equation maybe new people should look at position size as the absolute and not look at leverage and uncomplicate the probelms
But reading back through the thread a few people were having probelms accepting that leverage didnt play a role, it all depends on the angle your looking at the probelm.
as for what i gather about what your getting at 3% risk, yeah i think you have the basics down pat, regardless in the end, you want to make sure your stoploss does indeed equal that risk you have setup, different position sizes will determine how many pips it takes to hit that 3%, but that comes from just playing with the numbers.
watch out i might have twisted something in this post i type fast hehe
In the scenario you gave, what you said regarding stoploss and 3% risk is right. If you want a stop loss of e.g. 300pips, you ‘adjust’ your position so that the pip value is $1 per pip. (on Oanda it shows you at the bottom of the buy window what youre pip value).
Yes, you adjust ‘position size’ to maintain the 300$ risk.
No, you don’t adjust leverage. Adjusting Leverage will change the margin you ‘used’ for that trade, but it won’t change how much you are risking if you have a stoploss.
On Oanda, when you setup a buy/sell order it shows you the ‘margin used’ at the bottom of the window… this is not your ‘risk’. Your risk is your stoploss value which is under it. (i think Oanda just updated their demo platform this weekend and took this out though… maybe they will put it back in soon. It’s still in their real account platforms though.)
If you open too many positions then you’re ‘margin used’ might be so close to your account value that you will get a margin call before all your stops are reached… maybe then you might think about changing leverage so you can hold more positions. This is highly unlikely though… as long as you dont go for 1$ pip values on a 100$ account.
Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts. This was extremely helpful and encouraging to hear other pov’s. I not only gained an understanding of position size and risk but also of leverage and how that factors in or can factor in for decisions on trading. kangi said it right that it all depends on ones perspective in looking at the problem.
“If everyone is thinking the same thing, than someone isn’t thinking” - George S. Patton
I have spend a lot of time looking for something like this… I could not find it anywhere so I ended up doing an Excel spread sheet calculator which I was going to post… it even had Babypips colors!