Generally speaking, that is so. But here on BP indicator-biased trading has been especially ignored and simply passed off as lagging stuff that is always too late and just clutters the screen - but that PA or “naked charts” is the answer to everything. My question is simply “well, is it?” I don’t see the results here!
There are consistently profitable traders here and one recognises them one when reads them - but not many.
This is not entirely true.
There are some of us here who have been trading for a very long time and are only too happy to pay back by trying to offer some help to newcomers to help them avoid some of the more general mistakes, keep their feet on the ground, and avoid having to individually re-invent the wheel all over again…also it is actually a pleasure (usually) just to chat about trading and related issues - and there is always something new to learn as well!
Exactly! but it seems in recent years no one believed that or realised it until it happened to them personally. They were swamped in the marketing furore. But maybe now that reality is being put on the stage and under the floodlights and potential newcomers are thinking twice about whether it is even worth risking their small capital.
It kind of reminds me of a TV documentary about Kitchener in the 1st WW (I wasn’t there at the time! :)) with his famous slogan “Your country needs you” - and hundreds of thousands immediately volunteered and enthusiastically hoped they were not too late and would miss out on all the excitement before the war ended. Nowadays, it is hard to imagine that young men and women would be quite so naive about what war is for those involved.
Not that trading is quite such warfare as WW1 and 2 but it is still a minefield for the slack, lazy and ignorant.
Thanks for your reply
Concerning the absence of input from PA traders, it is finally really rewarding to actually see someone here on BP who doesn’t just talk about PA but is willing and brave enough to actually post their live trades together with the reasons why they were taken and what went right and what went wrong.
I am sure @cndlstckchic doesn’t mind me quotinq the following post here:
Well there is the challenge!
But instead of just words I recommend anyone interested in PA to follow this thread and see how PA does - or does not- work out in the real world of trading real markets:
Ok so after the three amigos have now been cleared out of the forum saving us from their pollution, lets get back to the question. So the thread in question has got active even though the candlestick traders tried to highjack it.Sorry guys and girls, candlestick studies IS NOT Price action. But it still leaves the question. Has price action really become a lost study? Where are all the speculators gone? Is it simply everyone has blown up their accounts and no longer trades or is Babypips full of frauds. From what I’ve been told the three amigos were in fact the one and the same individual.
Umm… I didn’t know any people who did not consider candlestick patterns as PA. Now your statement has really attracted me towards this post and your understanding of trading.
Anyhow those think that 1-2 candle forms a “Specific shape” that will signal you to buy/sell, then I must say you are trolling yourself, trolling everyone else and wasting time.
Honestly, think about it, there hundreds of bars on the chart, and you think that 2 candles if form X shape will move the market to some degree ? Are you crazy ?
PA involves learning so many things that candle traders don’t have to learn. Plus I’ve read that candle traders only sit for 30 minutes to 1 hour per day, set orders and GTFO. Honestly, thats not how it works. Person who spends 8 hours a day working will make more money than such type of person because he putting way more effort than you.
PA involves:
Learning the structure of market and movement of price
Understanding different types of trends
Recognize different types of support resistance
Then there is risk component that plays it self out in our trading, RIsk and money management if not done then even if you trade for 10 years, its meaningless. It doesn’t matter how skilled you are, its meaningless.
Oh and I can’t forget mindset and psychological factors that affect our trading. If not done then will make silly mistakes, useless ones probably that would cause unnecessary loss.
Thanks for your faith Simon, mine has been quite dashed in the past few days so I appreciate your comments very much.
Here’s what I think about this topic of convo… why are there not more experienced traders sticking around, and price action traders in particular? I think it’s two issues. The first issue being that Forex is a very tough field to ‘make it’ in. Lots of new people start out on BabyPips (and other sites) with maximum levels of enthusiasm and high hopes, but many burn out within a year or two simply from experiencing failure repeatedly. They realize that it is not easy, not a get rich quick dream come true, etc.
For those of us who do stick around, many get swept up with their trading and lives - take me for instance. I’ve had children, gotten my bachelor’s degree, survived a brutal divorce, and emerged from the flames to start rebuilding my life -
in the past 7+ yrs since I began my trading journey. I’ve taken extended breaks from trading, but I always come back. I learn a little more each time, my patience grows, understanding deepens, etc. Yet, I still consider myself on a scale of 1 (beginner) to 10 (expert) to be around a 5 or 6. I am professing to the readers of threads that I post in that I am not an expert, I am just passionate about trading and I enjoy helping others who are just starting out.
But as I have often found in Forex forums, there is a high level of almost toxic aggressive competitiveness, bullying, putting down, ridiculing, etc. It is no wonder to me that good people leave.
This is precisely the point of this thread - and why you are so important here on BP right now.
There has been so much singing the praises of PA (and condemnation of indicators) as though all one needs to do is draw a few lines and recognise a few patterns and the world is, as they say, your oyster.
But the testimony of that “truth” would be in the posting of all those new PA traders from their respective"paradises" around the world - but they are all noticeable only by their absence…
The point here behind this thread really is that yes PA works, as does anything else,but only if and when it is used by someone who recognises that it is just a tool of the trade and has trained themselves to use it as a professional.
You are a clear testimony to the truth of that and that is why you are valuable here. Even though you have worked so hard at it you still recognise that there is so much still to learn ahead. That is reality rather than dreaming.
[quote="cndlstckchic, post:16, topic:1170]But as I have often found in Forex forums, there is a high level of almost toxic aggressive competitiveness, bullying, putting down, ridiculing, etc. It is no wonder to me that good people leave.
[/quote]
I did my apprenticeship many years back in the trading room of an international commercial bank but I am very new to forums, having joined here only 2 years ago.
As such I have been so surprised and disturbed by the amount of exactly what you describe that I have, as others have pointed out, left this site more times than they have had hot dinners in sheer frustration that people forget that we are all on the same side with the same objectives…
Because we’ve got bored of the ‘same old’ nonsense, more precisely I would like to assume that we also have absorbed all the value possible from forums and other online resources. It’s cyclical, just like the markets, and after being an active member for many many years it’s a tedious task trying to constructively answer questions that have been answered many many times before. Seven years later and It’s nothing personal.
That’s totally understandable. But for experienced traders who feel that way, maybe it’s best to just not comment at all rather than participate in a way that scares off newbs and chastizes those who are willing to still speak up and put in their two cents.
I was actually having this very conversation with a friend of mine a few days ago, we met back when we both first started trading and he is a legit full time trader now.
I told him about my involvement on babypips threads recently, and he asked me why? Why waste your time doing that?
I told him, there are so many new people here - and many more slightly less new trying to guide them. It’s like the blind leading the blind. What is needed are people with knowledge who actually want to share in a positive and constructive way. Besides, I have always found that teaching others helps me to improve as well.
Can’t disagree with this - there’s always an approach to take. I’ve been guilty on many occasions of running my mouth, but then again as I said in the previous posts it becomes tedious; again nothing personal and sometimes pushing the boundaries actually results in new lessons being learnt which were originally outside of the scope of the question being asked in the first place.
To quote the following
"Make no mistake about it, when you step into any market, including the forex market, and decide that you want to make money, you have decided you will outwit and outperform some of the most determined, intelligent, and well-resourced people in the world. All these impressive people have one goal: to take your money."
Surely any serious trader would be naive to believe that we’re not in this game for one reason and one reason only - it’s not a charity. This is why trading in all walks of life attracts all attitudes, and it’s something we all have to accept. Some of the most knowledgeable people I have met have been total arrogant, obnoxious assholes - but guess what… they have made it. Censoring these individuals can do more harm than good, it’s better to just roll with it and take what benefits you can. Ironically it’s not always smoke and mirrors.
I might be more tolerant of someone dropping by and bashing something I’ve said in a thread if I’ve seen any evidence of their success. So, I suppose that you’re right that censoring some individuals would be detrimental. But if they’re not sharing anything of value with the group and just going around spewing negativity - they’re just ruining it for everyone else.
So the answer is yes. Price action is a dead art. Not because people don’t trade using it successfully. But because the marketing educational gurus have blurred the definition that much they we simply don’t recognized the different styles.
Japaneses Candlesticks are but a charting style. No different to, Heiken Ashi candles,renko bars, range bars, point and figure, line charts or simple bar charts. In the right hands each can be used to successfully to trade the market. However they are all built of price action.
To a purest such as myself there is but one true chart, and its the tale of the tape. However our minds are not programmed to be able to digest all that information in time to make our trade decisions. Thats why we invented chart types.
And now you know.
The only one to be able to answer the original question. I’ll take it one step further but. The never-ending bull that is constantly regurgitated though these forums that attract noob newbies to the “life is all rose colored glasses” is sickening. Self promotion and denial of the truth is rampant. You can not be taught to trade the market, you have to learn it yourself. Trying and do what everybody else is doing just doesn’t work. Posters that just regurgitate this message just ain’t worth following.
That’s awfully dramatic. Price action isn’t dead, we just differ on the definition apparently. To me, if I am looking at a bare chart without assistance of indicators and I am identifying patterns in the cumulative price activity, including candles - that is price action. Why does it bother you so much that I am including candlestick analysis in my chart analysis? Candles represent price movement on a smaller scale. It makes no sense to me why you would exclude that. But I have zero interest in arguing with you about this. I am going to trade the way I am going to trade, and if you want to say that it’s not price action…whatever. Your opinion doesn’t matter to me - I don’t know what else to call it, because that’s what everyone I know who trades the way I do calls it. So, lets just agree to disagree.
I’m not sure why there is so much emphasis put on naked trading and charts, except that most of the indicators that are ‘offered’ to new traders aren’t worth the time spent to learn to use them as they were intended, and most new traders don’t even bother to do that. They use the MT4 version of MACD set to default settings and then come to the conclusion that indicators aren’t useful. Well, they’re right, in the end. I suppose that’s what people mean when they say, ‘whatever you believe about the market ends up being true’.
Some indicators are truly useful, and even more so if you can code enough to build one to tailor with a system built from the ground up by yourself, in other words one that you intimately understand.
I agree that any successful trader is going to have to discover things on their own, and if they are clever enough to discover something that is not widely known, even better. That’s probably why most veteran traders don’t have time for forums; they are just a temptation to over-share.
However I wouldn’t put myself in the successful trader category yet, so I don’t know that any retail trader is successful. I suspect they exist and are keeping mum. I suspect people like Bob and Lexys and some of the staff who write for BP are also successful but how would we ever know for sure. Does it matter? I think it’s possible so I persist.
I can testify to that.[quote=“clemmo, post:25, topic:117027”]
I suspect people like Bob … are also successful
[/quote]
Successful, unfortunately no. I’ve learnt my lessons falling of the horse many, many ties. But I get back on and survive. So I describe myself as a survivor. It will be many years yet before I can enjoy the fruits of my hard labor.
Fantastic hearing your views and all the best to you @clemmo
For now there are two crow with and upside gap outside, I’ll need to go throw some stones at.
[quote=“clemmo, post:25, topic:117027, full:true”]
I’m not sure why there is so much emphasis put on naked trading and charts … They use the MT4 version of MACD set to default settings and then come to the conclusion that indicators aren’t useful. Well, they’re right, in the end. I suppose that’s what people mean when they say, ‘whatever you believe about the market ends up being true’.[/quote]
The main reason for the popularity of “price action” and “naked trading” is that people nowadays want an “off-the -shelf” product that, like buying a car, works by itself, is reliable, is fast off the grid, looks and sounds cool - and with no need to look under the hood or open the manual.
Unfortunately, as we all 100% know, that does not exist in trading models. But still people seek it.
However, people have come to doubt indicators through the wide promotion of their deficiencies such as “lagging” and the observation of the general failure of widely promoted and continually sold models based on them.
But PA is a bit different. You cannot really “productize” PA methods as it depends on the current developments of price. That is both its benefit and its problem. Simply connecting the dots on a naked chart does not produce a winning scenario. One still has to know what is going on “under the hood”, what kind of road we are on and where we are trying to get to,
If someone buys a set of the finest surgeon’s knives off the flea market and reads a few books and watches a few YouTubes, would you let them near your appendix?
The point of this thread was to point out exactly that: That PA is apparently not as simple as it is made out to be because whilst many talk about how they are a “PA trader” there are not many that get as far as actually talking about it from their experiences.
This, at least in my opinion, is precisely the heart of the problem. To be consistent in trading you need to intimately understand how your market works, how you want to approach it, and what you are going to need that will tell you what you need to know, in order to succeed.
I was just this morning reading a BBC article about the Chinese Communist Pary Congress in Beijing and I read one of the thoughts attributed to President Xi Jinping and I thought that really applies to learning trading:
“Life [trading] is like a shirt with buttons where you have to get the first few right or all the rest will be wrong.”
it is no good picking something and “seeing if it works”, then try something else, and them something else, for as long as one has some money left…
You need to ask “what do I need to know about this market in order to do with it what I want to do” - and when you know that then you look for the appropriate tool for that function whether it is an “indicator”, or a PA technique, or a home-made “gadget”.
The main reason is because no one wants to button up someone else’s shirt for them (yeah, yeah, I know there are some shirts that one would certainly like to unbutton). But there is a great willingness amongst “veterans” to help others on their curve - if they are genuine in their learning: People like Viper, Tommor, Clint, to mention just a few.
These people are not giving away trading “systems” or looking for followers, they are just giving from their own experiences.
I think this is true of several terms in the trading sphere.
Not only “price action” though it’s certainly true of this expression.
Also “scalping”, judging by forum discussions of the term. People at Babypips seem to say “scalping” when they mean nothing more specific than trading with small targets? I’ve even seen the expression “scalping from 4-hour charts” here, whatever that means when it’s at home!
I think it’s a bit strong to say that PA is dead. I use PA to trade, I have a couple of EMAs and RSI on my chart, but they’re really the supporting cast of my case for taking a trade. I start out with a PA setup. One issue is that a lot of people use a bit of a mix of approaches. I consider myself a PA trader, but some would say that because I have RSI and EMAs on my chart then I no longer count.
And to pick up the ‘where are all the PA traders?’ point - there will be a number of reasons for an ebb and flow on any forum, in my view. There aren’t enough of us in here to constitute a meaningful sample to scale up a wider view of the retail trader industry, I expect. As @cndlstckchic said, life can intervene. For my part, we launched two businesses and had two more kids over the duration of my trading career, so some things had to take a back seat and fora were one of them. Then I did come back here and found that it had all changed so much it too a massive (and ongoing) adjustment to decided whether or not I could get myself back into the groove.
So I wouldn’t personally say that PA trading is dead just yet.
Sorry to dig up an old thread - am still reading back in, and struggling to find too many current discursive threads!
PA certainly isn’t dead - it’s the bread and butter, and if not then it should be, of any chart reader. I’d say ‘more fool you’ (not you, Simon) to the people who chose to ignore PA. Each to there own, as always
