Stop loss lets me lose more than no stop loss

I think that it is not stop losses that lead to losses, but an unsuccessful trading strategy, according to the rules and conditions of which you set your SL. Therefore, I think that it is the strategy that you need to pay attention to, try to improve or optimize it.

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What if there’s 100 accounts

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Lol, different situation, then. That’s one way of playing it, certainly. Or you could transfer the funds from those 100 accounts into one or two futures accounts, side-step all the CFD “broker” issues and trade instead a different way, in a transparent, honest, genuine market? Not everyone’s choice, I appreciate, but still a legitimate suggestion … :sweat_smile:

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I agree with what @steveepperson is saying here.

I believe the location of you SL is key. Get it out of the way of the “noise” where everyone else has placed theirs.

Whether “they” are hunting your stops, or manipulating the markets it doesn’t matter, price is going to jump around, and if your SL is too close or in the same area as thousands of other SL’s then it’s pretty much guaranteed to get pinged, then continue in it’s established direction.

I would personally never advise trading without a SL like some here do. But those who do and survive are much more experienced, or they swing trade the daily charts where there is usually more room for price fluctuations and less chance of price wiping you out if you accidentally sleep in one morning. Some use hedging as part of their strategy. Either way, money management in one form or another, is extremely important in this business if you want to trade long term.

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Well, I guess that means you gotta do your research about their regulatory firms. Don’t it?

Tbh, I think you just gotta do your research and beg to God that you are lucky in your choice.

Visible stop loss orders will appear in the heat map which is public information. Everybody can see the heat map.

Whales look at heat map and use stop loss orders to fill their orders.

If your stop loss order is big enough to make difference in the heat map, you should make your stop loss invisible.

Since it is public information anyway, brokers and exchanges will also use stop loss orders to fill their own orders.

A big stop loss order or an obviously hot stop loss zone is just begging to be eaten by whales.

Could you send me an example?

We must take full responsibility for our results and stop blaming others such as brokers for our failure. My own experience is : 1) First create a trading edge ( meaning a trading system that is profitable in the medium to long run). 2. Then back test the system until you are confident that your system is profitable 3. Then execute your sytem rigorously. 4. Journal your trades, emotion etcc. 5. Once a month review your results and make adjustments. ( In creating your edge look for win percentage and rusk:reward ratio’s etc). Hope this helps.

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Hi Sias!

Welcome to Trading! First, I am also over 50 and when I realized I should’ve started investing for my retirement 30 years ago, and looked at my options, trading was The Option…lol…I started trading 3 years ago and after losing thousands of dollars and hope, I kept coming back and refining my formula…

Good news: it can be done!
Bad news: Stop Losses are a necessity

There are a few ways you can go about them and I will share with you two of them…

  1. Use a stop loss based on the daily ATR (Average True Range)
  2. (My Favorite) place your stop orders above/below the liquidation/liquidity pools…

Google “How to Spot Liquidity Pools”

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If you are rather earning profit without “stop loss”, then, i can say that is your strategy. Keep it up.

This is how whales spot stop loss orders. Whales also place fake orders on the heat map to fool others. There are fake orders on the heat map.

Are you factoring the spread into your stop loss math? I was having the same issue as you, as well as my “take profits” not getting taken, despite being hit. Once I adjusted to factor in the spread into both settings, this problem was resolved.

Hi Sias

There is a solution to your problem. If you can, imagine a trading scenario where you can have the protection of a stop loss, but rarely have it hit. That scenario is the Daily chart. On a Daily chart your average stop loss is not often less than 50 pips. There isn’t a shady broker in the world that will swerve a market, or widen the spread, 50 pips just to hit your stop. This means that if the trade is going against you, you’re just plain wrong; get out of the trade! And, because the Daily is a slower moving environment you have, in most cases, the opportunity to close early. Early closure has the benefit of increasing your over all Risk to Reward ratio. Even if you trade 1:1, closing early can increase your over all RR to a 1:2. I would further add that no body is hunting your stop. The problem is that your stop is IN THE WAY! Price does two things; it moves from fair value to a liquidity level and then turns around and heads back to fair value. If you entry is anywhere between those two points, your stop loss is likely standing in the way of the markets intended destination. Your entry should either be at a liquidity level aiming at fair value, or at fair value aiming at a liquidity level. It’s your job as a trader to identify those two things and then anticipate which way the market is likely to move. Sprinkle in some sound risk management and you have yourself a profitable outcome. Best of luck.

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your heatmap example shows ES instrument from CME exchange which is high regulated and nothing to do with Other The Counter market which I am talking about, and we trade (most of us ). Even if you have a lot of cash, it is not possible to manipulate the market, CME or CFTC will quickly discover it, and you will be charged about manipulated the market. Regards Greg

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@Sias Your problem is not the stop loss as a singular problem. Thats a typical beginner error in thinking. We all gone through it. :wink: Stop Loss saves you from insane debts when it gets volatile. Mostly the strategy in itself is not suitable or wrong and what is more important, your actual money managment is not working. A good working money management is often more important than the strategy. But in most cases they depend on each other.

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You can of course trade without Stop Loss and some people do but the reason to add one is

When you take a trade you should have an idea what you think is going to happen, eg I am buying a dip on a uptrend and I expect the price to continue upwards
There should be a point where you think this is no longer true, probably the break of the previous low - at which point you no longer think the trade idea is valid.
If you assume that the market has turned then your losses could be significant ie in the example the Market reached a top and is now heading down.

The Stop Loss limits your loss at this point
Now it is tricky, other traders may spot the area of the last low and guess that many traders will place their stops here, so they put in stop hunting trades (its a perfectly legitimate approach), so you might decide to make the SL a bit wider to allow for this

If you are trading on an unleveraged account, you might decide to ride the loss out after all most markets recover and if you are patient it will come back in your favour
If you have a leveraged account your broker might make a margin call and stop your trade

For the record I always add a Stop Loss and (almost) never widen it

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This (and many of the other posts) is exactly right, of course. The stuff above about “heat maps” is - frankly - deluded. :crazy_face:

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… but still a legitimate expression of opinion, however unorthodox. IMO it’s just a “conspiracy-theorist-type” belief that actually aligns fully and consistently with most of the poster’s other beliefs, as expressed in other threads. I think I’m glad, on balance, that he’s free to express them, although (like most people, obvs) I actually disagree very strongly with all of them. It would be boring, if we all agreed! :wink:

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SL getting hit is the only reason anyone loses a trade.

But it is still a necessary tool. I just use it to prevent catastrophy.