Trade without stoploss, think out of the box, can you?

it is rather too difficult or close to impossible if you trade few currencies at the same time

If you want to close more than one order in short time, almost same time, then you could use script because I usually used close all scripts to close them all without too much difficult. And if you want to close them all in exact same time, then you could use stop loss because it will close automatically when the price has hitted on price in your Stop Loss point. But trading using stop loss or not, it is not the real problem as long as you can manage the maximum loss which can happen in every transaction.

Yes you can, but what is the difference between script and stop loss? The thread says to trade without SL. I would suggest that it also means without your script =)

A stop loss is an order you give to your broker, a close open trade handled by a script is an local command/order on your computerā€¦itā€™s not the same.

You need to define a point where if price crosses, you know your trade idea is not working and to be taken out of the trade automatically.

Trading without a stop loss means youā€™re risking 100% of your account - basically $0 becomes your stop loss.

Look at some of the crazy unexpected bank moves weā€™ve seen that cause massive price spikes. These moves are bankrupting brokers.

There are moves on a smaller scale that will be enough to margin call you if your get caught on the wrong side of the market with out a stop. Donā€™t get caught with your pants down, use a stop.

Thatā€™s the most important part :slight_smile:
Trading like this requires outbox thinking!

You nailed it right on the head! Good on you Dr.!

Before even addressing what the original post has said, it has some serious holes in it. Just because someone jumps in and makes a statement with enthusiasm, large cap fonts and exclamation marks, does not mean that there is any foundation in the reasoning. First, before making such sweeping statements, show us your results. How many thousands of trades have you made with your strategy that has shown you were profitable?

ā€œThink out of the boxā€ā€¦okay, describe what your ā€œout of the boxā€ strategy is besides not using a stop loss? How are you profitable by simply not using a stop loss? What is your setup? R:R? Points of entry, exitā€¦anything. Show us your verified profitability with your ā€œout of the boxā€ system.

This is how sincere people who come here to learn get confused. You canā€™t actually suss out who the actual person is because the forum is anonymous. There are no sensory cues as to who is posting and the validity and quality of his expression.

It also sounds like the OP wants people to jump on his bandwagon so he does not have to stop and examine all the probable holes in his ā€œin the boxā€ strategy. Why, because most likely it will take a lot of effort to sit down and carve some new habits like patience, determination, skill and hard work.

As far as I am concerned, that is the foundation of any strategy in trading.

Peace.

Addendum: I have now read through all the pages of comments, including the OP who came back a couple of times and admitted the short comings in his original idea. Thanks for that and keeping it real.

I am disagree with you. Stop Loss is not the only one way to limit loss because you can cut loss manually (scalpers usually did this), using hedging technique (or locking), using averaging, or even martiangle system as risk management strategy. So, trade without stop loss doesnā€™t mean that you risked 100% of your account. If you can use hedging technique well then you can change loss condition to profit condition although you donā€™t use stop loss.

I agree with you. Some people consider trading without a stoploss to be sheer lunacy. Just because I donā€™t put a SL in most (if not all) of my trades, does not mean I am not managing my risk.

Then again, it all depends on the style of the trader, and their brokerā€™s restrictions. If youā€™re with a market maker, yeah, youā€™re likely to use a stoploss since your only option to hedge would be trading in the opposite direction, on a different pair, thatā€™s sharing the same momentum as your initial trade. Which can be risky, since cross-pair momentum changes all the time.

If youā€™re like me, and you have an ECN that has zero restrictions, then SL is not as necessary as some think it is. It lends a (I donā€™t want to sound all corny and whatnot, but) new-age way of trading, that traders 20 years ago didnā€™t have. I can hedge, pyramid, open 50 positions if I want all going the same way. If a pair is moving one way, and my first trade against the grain doesnā€™t work, I can just wait for 15 minutes, and open another, then rinse and repeat until the momentum shifts direction, adjust my TPs, and end up with me taking an overall profit on that pair. If I do the old fashioned 2:1, or 3:1, Iā€™d lose.

Granted Iā€™m just using my measly $320 with 200:1 leverage right now, so my risk is astronomical for even 10 pips on a 0.1 lot. :18:

But Iā€™m up $120 after a week and a day of trading so far without SL, and was up $4.5k on my $5k practice account after two months.

Banks and some brokers hunt people SLā€™s. If you can identify levels, momentum, and manipulation, the manual click is superior to the automatic red line IMO.

But to each his own. Forex trading is not something thatā€™s universally set in stone for everyone. Itā€™s a highly personal thing. If youā€™re profitable using SLs, all the power to you. If youā€™re profitable without, youā€™re still making money, so I donā€™t see the problem. My biggest reason why I stopped using SLs, is because I fell into that pit that a lot of other traders do. Theyā€™d take a loss, and say ā€œItā€™s okay. It was a good tradeā€, over, and over, and over again.

In my books, itā€™s not. A losing trade is not a good trade. Especially if it happens repeatedly. Once I spent months reevaluating my system, and ditched the red line, the red pips stopped, and the green pips came marching in.

Out of the box thinking is key in forex, since the big banks and brokers want to keep you in the box and push you around and take your money.

Why did you draw from that outcome the radical conclusion that you should be trading without a stop-loss rather than the perhaps more straightforward and common one that you should be trading with wider stop-losses than you originally were?

Since some of the concepts of quantitative analysis have been raised in this thread, Iā€™ll mention a little bit of quantitative/statistical analysis of my own, which Iā€™ve now been observing in many trading forums over many years: the members advocating trading without stop-losses typically arenā€™t still there, a few years later - they all seem gradually to disappear from the online trading community, whereas those advocating against it seem to be much longer-term survivors in this industry. It may all just be a remarkable coincidence, but itā€™s certainly a regularly repeating pattern Iā€™ve noticed, even since I started looking at trading forums. :33:

Like I said. Itā€™s all observing levels, momentum, and manipulation for me. The reason why I donā€™t use wide stops is due to the fact that sometimes momentum is not favorable for me. Iā€™m looking at the market going one way, it pushes hard the other way, why would I wait say 40-50 red pips before getting out? Even if itā€™s looking grim after 5-10 pips, Iā€™ll get out manually. The short-term conditions of the pair are what establishes my risk appetite.

I should also clarify. I donā€™t hold trades for very long. Iā€™m not a swing trader, Iā€™m a day trader at most. Typically I hold a trade for no longer than 3 hours. I only trade when Iā€™m at my computer. I never hold trades when Iā€™m away from it. SLā€™s might be key for a trader thatā€™s willing to hold a position for days-weeks, or when they step away from their terminal, but theyā€™re really not an integral part of my system at all, since Iā€™m here keeping an eye on it the whole time.

edit: To answer the rest of your original question, I drew my conclusions from following other peopleā€™s methods, and losing, while not developing my own system that worked for me. The whole 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc. scheme is not applicable to my trading style and overall mental makeup when it comes to the markets. I missed out on too many profitable trades, and took too many losing trades by using that cut and dry mathematical method. To me, forex is more of an art than it is a science.

That was very well said from your experience, it is true that not all the rules will be applicable or mandatory to be followed by the trader. Because each and every trader have their own style of trading, i feel that the risk and money management should be accordingly customized for the traders benefit.

Thanks. Itā€™s something thatā€™s taken a long time for me to learn in forex. Iā€™ve been fortunate in happening to stumble upon posts from longtime, full-time traders on various forums. Theyā€™ve all echoed that sentiment. A lot of the methods, chart patterns, etc. are thrown out there to throw us off. If you follow the herd, youā€™re basically a lemming running off a financial cliff. It essentially boils down to fear and greed. If you can control those, youā€™ll likely be alright.

If youā€™re like me, and choose to be that idiot that runs around like an idiot, lol, you might just be profitable yet. :cool:

Mr Gone I agree with you.

I have watch many professional trade and half use stop loses and half do not. I agree that the idea that if I have to put a stop loss in the red and lose money is just wrong. Iā€™ll wait until it is in the money then put a net stop about half way. This insures me a profit when it turns back the other way. The stop loss before my limit will eat my profit one bite at a time. No stop loss is not unproffessional or crazy. Every time someone gives money to a planned stop loss just give it to me first. Stop loss is a tool use wisely.

Farver58

Indeed after been trading for more than five years, now i get to see some real hard cash in my bank account. And this is majorly for not following the herd and being more logical than emotional.

You know how trend-followers donā€™t set a TP in order to let their profits run?

Not using a SL is exactly the same thing. Itā€™s trend-following for losers (literally. Youā€™re following a trend thatā€™s against you and losing money, at least until youā€™re margin called).

If you are a fundamental trader with a solid grasp of the current market environment there are some scenarios where a stop loss is inappropriate. If the basis for a trade is a strong fundamental theme, it makes no sense to exit a trade based on what price does as long as that theme remains. The key in that scenario is to start with a small position and build into it. If you donā€™t have a clue about what moves the market and rely on your favorite YouTube guru for your trading than yeh, you need a stop loss for every tradeā€¦

Traders who are using the Fundamentals always have an Edge with regards to the other traders since they know the best time for trading and also they can easily understand the movements of the markets as they happen :slight_smile:

Hello to you!

I believe that we donā€™t loose just because of stop-outs. Wrong strategy, market news,creepy manipulations that we cannot influenceā€¦ All this affects trading and might leed to losses. I think stop-loss is good way of additional funds safety. I donā€™t realize clearly why is it associated with thinking out of the box:)

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think MOST market positions are held by people/institutions without benefit of a stop loss on order with a dealer/broker. If that is true, wouldnā€™t that make the placement of a stop loss with a dealer/broker ā€œoutside of the boxā€?

And for the retail day trader that sits poised over his mouse button ready to close a position as quick as his gut tells him, how is that ā€œoutside of the boxā€ when most of the exits for positions held by retail traders are predicated precisely on that same gut feeling?

-Adrian