Why would it take YEARS to be a Profitable Trader?

[anon88459104]

I’m going to address the question of screen time and perhaps get a bit technical doing so.

I coach volleyball. When we train players we talk about the three phases of performing a skill (and this applies to all sports). They are Read, Plan, Execute. When we say “read” we mean collect the various cues which tell you what you’re going to have to do. Much of that reading is unconscious - at least it is once you reach a certain level of experience. Before that, when you’re still in the conscious reading phase, the reading tends to be slow, leading to late decisions and poor execution.

So how do we teach reading? By putting the players in game-like situations over and over and over.

This is what’s called “random” training. Basically, it means even if we’re basically performing the same exercise repeatedly, there’s something about it which differs each time - even if by a very, very small amount. This is compared to what’s called “block” training where you just repeat the same skill execution with no real variation. The former provides a new read opportunity each time while the latter provides little, if any reading.

Here’s an example from basketball. Block practice is shooting the ball over and over from the same spot without moving. You basically read once, then execute however many times you shoot. Random practice would be moving to a new spot before every shot. That means you have to read each time.

Block training tends to be good for short-term skill acquisition (or if you’re doing something with basically no variation like foul shot shooting), but in terms of long-term retention random training is significantly better. This has been documented by research.

Now, you may want to challenge that sports are physical while trading is mental. I would argue back that sports are physical in execution, but everything up to that is mental. Basically, reading is a form of pattern recognition and anticipation. What are we doing in trading? Pattern recognition and anticipation.

In sports, no two game situations or plays are exactly the same. The same is true of the markets, but in both cases they are very often similar to others.

So the more opportunities you give yourself to read the markets - the more screen time - the better you will be at relating the current market situation to similar ones from the past. That’s why you hear people say you need a lot of screen time before you really get competent.

I like this answer a lot, an incredible number of similarities.

Interestingly, Rhody, do you think that both ‘Block’ and ‘Random’ training could be used in isolation for various [fixed parameter] trading approaches?

I must admit that from a personal point of view, I have always tried to turn my learning from the ‘random’ approach to ‘fixed’ approach. However this has been done by changing my trading approach to fit the learning style around it, rather than choosing the learning style regardless of the trading approach - the latter seems like a backward way of thinking and is fundamentally flawed.

[rhodytrader]

Interestingly, Rhody, do you think that both ‘Block’ and ‘Random’ training could be used in isolation for various [fixed parameter] trading approaches?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to mechanical systems or methods?

[anon88459104]

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to mechanical systems or methods?

You mentioned that ‘Block’ training is essentially repeating a major isolated skill with no variation [for example, block practice from the same spot] , while ‘Random’ training is repeating a major skill with minimal variation outside of the major skill [for example, block practice, but from various positions].

So my question was that in relation to trading, FX trading or other markets; do you think that from a learning prospective one trader can choose either block learning or random leaning - or should both practices be employed.

[rhodytrader]

You mentioned that ‘Block’ training is essentially repeating a major isolated skill with no variation [for example, block practice from the same spot] , while ‘Random’ training is repeating a major skill with minimal variation outside of the major skill [for example, block practice, but from various positions].

So my question was that in relation to trading, FX trading or other markets; do you think that from a learning prospective one trader can choose either block learning or random leaning - or should both practices be employed.

I think from a trading perspective the closest thing to block training would be to identify one very very specific pattern and practicing trading it via paper trading. You could get very good at trading that pattern. Problem is it might never repeat exactly that same way again in your lifetime.

Random training, on the other hand, is actually analyzing real market patterns - variations on that one specific pattern I just mentioned - and trading them. Live trading is best, but demo trading gets you along the path.

[profitfx]

No my dear no need to spend few years for learning, you can learn it if you are interested, dedicated and hard worker and forex is good rewarding business. You just have to spend few months on demo account then you can make the profitable trade.

[CarlosRay]

No my dear no need to spend few years for learning, you can learn it if you are interested, dedicated and hard worker and forex is good rewarding business. You just have to spend few months on demo account then you can make the profitable trade.

You are talking total garbage.
There is a lot of misinformation in forex and it can easily take several years to sort out the wheat from the chaff, self educate, and get on the road to [B]consistent [/B]month after month profit.

If it were as easy as you imply, we wouldn’t have 90% failure rates

You’ve been trading a while now, perhaps you’d like to offer a myfxbook link to your own highly profitable account

[lexys]

No my dear no need to spend few years for learning, you can learn it if you are interested, dedicated and hard worker and forex is good rewarding business. You just have to spend few months on demo account then you can make the profitable trade.

It’s another one of those “It must be true: I read it at BabyPips” moments. Where do people get this ludicrous nonsense from (oh … yes, that would be from forums, wouldn’t it?) and why must they propagate it?

[rhodytrader]

In doing my PhD research I noted that the 3 year mark was some kind of change point for the retail forex traders in my dataset. Now, obviously this is looking at aggregate figures so it’s averages, but there was a distinct (as in statistically significant) difference in returns for those with less than 3 years and those with more. The difference was something like 2% [I]per month[/I]. That’s a massive difference!

[BabyPips_001]

You cannot really put a time frame on people making a profit out of Forex… maybe a generalisation.
Just because you / I took months, years whatever to master Forex means zip.

The basic formula of Forex isn’t complicated… you speculate on long or short, up or down, hot or cold, heads or tails… simple right. Successful traders know that consistency via strategy is the key in the markets and this is where the knowledge and experience is applied.

For me there are 3 types of new traders… The Natural… The Learner… The Struggler.

You see these examples in all facets of life… business, driving, sport, school. Some people just excel at these activities, some learn and some don’t…simple. I know some brilliant scientists… but I’d never ever lend them my car…

The Natural… Just understands Forex at a glance, maybe a Stock Trader, Mathematician, Gambler (Successful) whatever their gift they will pickup Forex and be profitable within weeks or months.

The Learner… Sees the potential in the markets and will read, watch, demo over a period of time and will strive to be successful. Will put the days, weeks, months even years into mastering Forex that most people won’t.

The Struggler… They just don’t understand Forex, maybe never had exposure to markets, like the idea of making money but either aren’t prepared to put the time and dedication into learning Forex or see it as gambling and will be smashed, never to return… or simply they just don’t have it… its not for everyone…

We all have activities we do with ease compared to others, a natural skill set.

Motto [I]“I spent a few years like most people won’t so I could spend the rest of my years like most people can’t”[/I]

[Graviton]

I’ve never met a “Natural” in the Forex markets, though I’m prepared to admit they might exist. I have read about them in other markets though, like stocks. Usually they burn out quickly though. Markets change and evolve constantly and what ever method one uses will probably only work for a limited amount of time. To be successful, one must be constantly learning and evolving with the markets. Jesse Livermore was a famous “Natural” who started trading successfully at a very young age. He eventually committed suicide in a cloak room after a particularly bad series of trades.

I studied everything I could find and practiced trading cents per pip at 0.01 lot per trade for many years before I had any success at all. It doesn’t seem unusual to me for people to take 5 to 10 years to learn to trade successfully. If you are one of the lucky few that can master this craft quicker, you have my respect.

[BabyPips_001]

Hi Graviton, Thanks for your response… Forex is just a way to generate money for me… a business of money in (Profits) and money out (Losses and Commissions)… nothing more.

The fact the ONE “successful” trader topped himself over some bad trades means what exactly?.. suicide is one of the biggest killers of young people in every country…unbelievably most are not traders…

As I highlighted

[I]“The basic formula of Forex isn’t complicated… you speculate on long or short, up or down, hot or cold, heads or tails… Just because you / I took months, years whatever to master Forex means zip.”[/I]

As has already been mentioned on this site already… the really serious traders won’t come here and share information and strategies… it’s not the way they are programmed, they just get on with their goals and dreams (sic)

The “real” successful Forex traders don’t stay at home and continue to trade for 2, 3, 5 years. They set up a Trading Desk and train, manage and mentor other people to do the trading so he/she has the time to develop new financial opportunities that present themselves whilst in business… even develop into a Fund or into Investment Education… who knows.

Exactly the same as a “Gun” Builder is off the tools as soon as he can afford and employs other tradesmen to do the building. He can then develop his business… may even progress into Property Development or a Maintenance Franchise.

A book called The EMyth was published back in the 70’s, 80’s (1995!) I don’t remember exactly. It was one of the first books that researched the Entrepreneur factor. The main theme of the book was " Don’t work in your Business… Work on your business"

We are all trying to generate an income from the markets, to gain some freedom in our lives… successful trading can be a boring, repetitive, and stressful activity which is not my idea of freedom.

[CarlosRay]

This is turning into an interesting read, I hope new traders are taking note.
Jungle, just out of interest how long did it take you to become a consistently successful forex trader (by successful I mean having say 6 months of steady profitable months in your live account, im not expecting you to have a garage full of Ferarri’s)

BTW, who’s the guy in your avatar, he looks familiar and its bugging me

[BabyPips_001]

Hi Carlos… I have been trading stocks since 2004 and started Forex in Sept 2016 so I had a head start with understanding markets, indicators, strategies etc. Just not as volatile as Forex and no Ferrari’s…

I’m not a “Natural” trader. I would hate to add up the hours spent researching, reading, watching and learning since Sept. but it would be north of 50 hours a week. I’m lucky I have the time.

I have only been consistent for 60 days but can see the potential of Forex over time. Same as you buy an old house that needs work… a renovation, coat of paint and it could be worth double…

I use various [U]simple[/U] strategies such as Heikin Ashi candles with a 50 EMA on the XAUUSD… it goes green I buy, it goes red I sell and only in the direction of the EMA with a few tweaks along the way. A strategy that takes 300 - 700 pips per trade on the 1h TF and can easily be taught to anyone with a bit of babysitting. It also easily adapts to a changing market. I target 2800 - 3600 pips per week (~200 - 280 pips in crosses) and have achieved it over the last 6 weeks.

I’m only trading 40oz positions but can top up the position size on any trade 90oz, 100oz, 500oz once I’m comfortable it is solid, I can safely cover the margin and I’m using Profit to trade and not my cash…

PS. Sorry Carlos…Al Bundy (Ed O’Neill) from Married with Children sitcom… [I]“Apathy Personified”[/I]

[lexys]

I use various [U]simple[/U] strategies such as Heikin Ashi candles with a 50 EMA on the XAUUSD… it goes green I buy, it goes red I sell and only in the direction of the EMA with a few tweaks along the way.

Very interesting indeed. This sounds like a very solid method, to me: it’s basically a way of buying the dips in an uptrend and selling the rallies in a downtrend, and you can’t get much more reliable, overall, than that? The slow EMA is effectively the “higher time-frame trend” and a change of HA-candle colour is the end of a dip/rally in the “lower time-frame” … interesting, and makes sense.

Not that I have ever traded XAUUSD, or necessarily know what I’m talking about … :8:

(I remember also looking at “smoothed HA-candles” and using them to trade the major stock indices on demo, taking long trades only when the price was above a 60-period SMA and short when below a falling one, when I first started looking at trading a long time ago. Probably fairly similar? It seemed to work.)

Interesting thread.

[JoJo23]

I think that sticking to simple strategies is the best way. If a strategy is over complex then errors can creep in an and sometimes you may not even realise that you are making mistakes.

[alphahavoc]

I think there is too much information out there on forex. It is impossible to go thru everything. Digesting all these information alone takes a long time.

Comprehending is one thing. Ability to execute is totally another thing. The only way to really learn trading lies in LIVE trading. Another problem arises once you go live. Losing is part and parcel of the game. How much losses are you able to stomach? How strong is you willpower to start from scratch? Burning an account once, twice or thrice. How much hit can you take and keep moving forward towards your goal? Most give up.

For those stubborn mule. Intermittent hiatus at some point in the forex journey is often mandatory to facilitate recuperation. That further lengthen the number of years to become profitable.

Practice makes perfect, everyone knows that. Imagine throwing a ball into a basket. How long does it take to perfect the game? How many can succeed? How many give up? How many years does it take to become an expert? How many can actually become a professional and make a livelihood out of it?

[Ronnel]

As I highlighted

[I]“The basic formula of Forex isn’t complicated… you speculate on long or short, up or down, hot or cold, heads or tails… Just because you / I took months, years whatever to master Forex means zip.”[/I]

As has already been mentioned on this site already… the really serious traders won’t come here and share information and strategies… it’s not the way they are programmed, they just get on with their goals and dreams (sic)

The “real” successful Forex traders don’t stay at home and continue to trade for 2, 3, 5 years. They set up a Trading Desk and train, manage and mentor other people to do the trading so he/she has the time to develop new financial opportunities that present themselves whilst in business… even develop into a Fund or into Investment Education… who knows.

Exactly the same as a “Gun” Builder is off the tools as soon as he can afford and employs other tradesmen to do the building. He can then develop his business… may even progress into Property Development or a Maintenance Franchise.

I agree with you that it really doesn’t matter how long a good trader took to learn his skills because it’s basically just UP or DOWN. Some have learned it fast and are profiting and some have been doing it for years and still not profitable…

Actually there are serious traders who are in here. My second mentor who is a pro trader visits here too but mostly just on silent mode. I’ve recognize some of the name who are basically my seniors who are pro traders too. Yes I think you are right that pros or very serious traders don’t go around sharing vital infos and strategies like handing out candies but I assure you that they are here. It’s not really “sic” because of the different programming as you have said, it’s just the way how things go. Maybe because of the different mentality and approach to trading compared to the rookies that thinking style may clash so better to keep incognito. Just like in my introduction thread when I mentioned that I don’t use SL was a bit in question

I also think that you are right bout the “real” successful traders don’t just stay trading. Actually my main mentor who was a pro Japanese trader/company owner did the same thing. He started from the trading pit during his early teens drawing candles on the blackboard, turned pro and was head-hunted by a bank to trade for them. He started his company by head-hunting pro traders. He did not teach new traders to trade for his company maybe because he is not a people-person type. His company grew and expanded to hedging, financing, exporting, selling houses, buildings and properties, etc. He only took two apprentice when he was alive. Yes I think that heavy hitters don’t like to be bound continuosly trading all their life and invest on other things too. Yes I do agree like the “gun builder” employs other tradesman to develop his business and expand. That’s was exactly what my mentor did.

Again, some “real” traders are here or jumping from site to site, forum to forum. It’s the internet age and trading can sometimes be quite boring.

[common]

I agree with you that it really doesn’t matter how long a good trader took to learn his skills because it’s basically just UP or DOWN. Some have learned it fast and are profiting and some have been doing it for years and still not profitable…

Actually there are serious traders who are in here. My second mentor who is a pro trader visits here too but mostly just on silent mode. I’ve recognize some of the name who are basically my seniors who are pro traders too. Yes I think you are right that pros or very serious traders don’t go around sharing vital infos and strategies like handing out candies but I assure you that they are here. It’s not really “sic” because of the different programming as you have said, it’s just the way how things go. Maybe because of the different mentality and approach to trading compared to the rookies that thinking style may clash so better to keep incognito. Just like in my introduction thread when I mentioned that I don’t use SL was a bit in question

I also think that you are right bout the “real” successful traders don’t just stay trading. Actually my main mentor who was a pro Japanese trader/company owner did the same thing. He started from the trading pit during his early teens drawing candles on the blackboard, turned pro and was head-hunted by a bank to trade for them. He started his company by head-hunting pro traders. He did not teach new traders to trade for his company maybe because he is not a people-person type. His company grew and expanded to hedging, financing, exporting, selling houses, buildings and properties, etc. He only took two apprentice when he was alive. Yes I think that heavy hitters don’t like to be bound continuosly trading all their life and invest on other things too. Yes I do agree like the “gun builder” employs other tradesman to develop his business and expand. That’s was exactly what my mentor did.

Again, some “real” traders are here or jumping from site to site, forum to forum. It’s the internet age and trading can sometimes be quite boring.

Ronnel, your post here well said and in fact I just sat and carefully read through it severally. Just amazed at your sincerity in what you say. Thanks!

[TrumpHack]

If I may chime in, it would appear that many of us are " Professional" traders who are rather “profitable” but when it actually comes to proving one’s success it’s a different story. I honestly love this website for many reasons, but I think one of the issues with “social trading” is realizing that the blind is leading the blind, and we only believe someone is a guru because he/she knows more than us.
My advice to anyone reading this, who doesn’t have much experience, is to not judge a “guru” based on his wins, but judge that person based on his/her losses. The person’s losses will determine how good they are at teaching or even worth following. I honestly don’t believe it is fair to criticize someone’s system, not seeing any proof of their success, but my mentor told me "Believe none of what you read, half of what you hear, and never make a trade on gut decision.

[TrumpHack]

I’ve never met a “Natural” in the Forex markets, though I’m prepared to admit they might exist. I have read about them in other markets though, like stocks. Usually they burn out quickly though. Markets change and evolve constantly and what ever method one uses will probably only work for a limited amount of time. To be successful, one must be constantly learning and evolving with the markets. Jesse Livermore was a famous “Natural” who started trading successfully at a very young age. He eventually committed suicide in a cloak room after a particularly bad series of trades.

I studied everything I could find and practiced trading cents per pip at 0.01 lot per trade for many years before I had any success at all. It doesn’t seem unusual to me for people to take 5 to 10 years to learn to trade successfully. If you are one of the lucky few that can master this craft quicker, you have my respect.

That is a very interesting take on “what ever system you use will work for a limited amount of time”. Now the question I have is what type of trading are you doing? A person who trades “Support and resistance” looks at his/her chat very differently from a person who “scalps”. I have seen a trader who not only has grown his personal account, but he has also done so for others also. With verified trades and his system has worked in every single type of market. I think the hardest thing is forex is being consistent. Yet for this trader, all he does is consistently make profit. Have a look for yourself and tell me what you think. mechie’s Profile | Myfxbook