4h trend, when to come in?

HI

i know it is recommended to have a higher timeframe, but some 4h trends just look really good, and if you waited for a higher daily timeframe to be formed, you would miss out on some nice moves.

as an example (see pic), at what point would one start to look at coming in for this 4h trend marked with green line? the pic shows a daily uptrend which reverses forming a blazing downtrend which looks very nice on the 4h chart (as time progresses it is less wavy and better, but assume it looks good right from the startā€¦)

blue line is support. my thinking is that once the blue line is conquered THEN iā€™m interested in getting in if there is a good setup. since before that there is still an uptrend in place and it would therefore be contrarian. peopleā€™s thought are welcomeā€¦

60sma yellow
and 30 ema
thanks


When to enter a trade depends on your trading plan, what does that say?

A good guide can be seen in the 3 ducks system. Uses 4h to look for trends, 1h to confirm trend is not about to change, 5m to pick entry points.

Hi edd

Hope you are well. I think you mentioned the the 3 ducks was a good basis for a profitable system. I guess I will try to look at adding some rules for stop and tp. anything else you would add ?

Yeah, H4 time frame is very useful time frame for intraday trader. But honestly, daily time frame is the main pillar that represents much information on market flow and context. I have a good idea to use Daily and H4 time frame in a time, that is; traders should mainly allow the trend which is available in daily and if they get same direction on H4 according to daily then they may use this trading opportunity. Because, trend is your friend.

1 Like

well, in the babypips school it certainly does recommend picking trends that have an aligned higher timeframe, but iā€™ve looked at quite a few 4h ā€˜contrarianā€™ trends (4h trends going in opposite direction of a daily timeframe trend), and many of them seemed profitable. i done a brief test on several past setups and scored a profit. also, the ducks system doesnā€™t specify a requirement of having a daily timeframe in harmony with a 4h trend trade. so my thinking is that for 4h trend trades (not 1h or shorter), if the daily timeframe is in the same direction, thatā€™s ideal, but not necessary. there are quite a few contrarian 4h trend trades that turn into nice winners.
if anyone disagrees let me know.

I instinctively agree with you.

But thatā€™s because (taking up the point Eddie wisely made above) thatā€™s what my trading plan says: I go in where support has been breached. (I use a very different time-frame from you, but the principleā€™s the same.)

Thereā€™s no perfect answer. There will always be many times when, with hindsight, that was a bad place to go in. You canā€™t decide this from a small number of ā€œsamplesā€ - only from backtesting a very large number of samples and deciding whatā€™s profitable for you and suits your own style, and then confirming it by forward-testing it on demo as well.

Whatever you decide,[I] it will sometimes be wrong, and that doesnā€™t matter[/I], as long as you have a proven net positive expectation, collectively, from your trades. :slight_smile:

lexys: thanks. this idea of waiting for support (blue line) to be breached is sinking in my head more . otherwise we would find the start of a new trend (e.g. 2 waves long) almost everywhere and anywhere to get into . seems to me when you wait for support /resistance to get breached , there is ā€˜open spaceā€™ for the trend to keep riding in that direction. donā€™t get it fully, but itā€™s something like that i think. and the trend looks more like a ā€œfree rangeā€ trend worth getting into . although iā€™m doing tests and even when support/reistance hasnā€™t been breached it seems worth it still. maybe after 4 waves or so, so that itā€™s more of an established trend

I hear you.

I donā€™t count the number of waves, myself. I donā€™t believe in them. But Iā€™m a skepchick and I donā€™t believe in most things that many other people believe in. I donā€™t accept ā€œwidespread beliefsā€ and ā€œanecdotal evidenceā€, however much of it there is. I believe only in what Iā€™ve proven [I]for myself [/I]with statistical significance. :8:

Yes, I think so.

Often thereā€™s a retracement, too. The first break doesnā€™t always run, and if you take it, it can sometimes work badly. But if you wait for certainty, you miss it. Bob Volman (one of the authors whose books have been most useful to me) takes a lot of ā€œsecond breaksā€. This seems to me to be a good compromise. You miss some trends starting, itā€™s true, but you donā€™t run into nearly so many retracements and get closed out with a tight stop (and I only trade with tight stops because my top priority is to avoid losses). ā€œJust my perspectiveā€.

4hr charts are excellent for swing trading, I like to enter on pullbacks to the 200 moving average, below is the AUDUSD, see how on day of the Brexit vote price came down and was held by the 200 ma. This is also my measuring stick for going long or short, If price is above the 200 ma on the 4hr chart, I am looking for pullbacks to go long, if below the 200ma I am looking for short entries. You can also do this with daily and 1hr charts using a 200 simple moving average. I never look at any other indicators for my trading


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Lexys, others:
this chart shows 9 daily trends (blue arrows, some up, some down)ā€¦ with supprot/resistance levels A ,B and C. at the end price is heading down as shown by the final black arrow. I want to get in. if price happens to be near B, iā€™m thinking DONā€T get in because of resistance, or donā€™t worry about that? Same thing with C ā€“ is there resistance there as well? I ask since B and C are in the DISTANT PAST unlike A. I plan on only going in if there is enough room (enough R;R ratio) in front of B or C. at the start there is, but later i might not have gone in.

also , there is a peak between 2nd and third trends/blue lines. that is also resistance maybe ?? perhaps after breaking past A, i should not go in because of it? would like a little clarification
(dennis: iā€™ll check your post out)03[/ATTACH]




You ask good questions, Harpoon.

I assume you know enough about ā€œforumsā€ and ā€œtaking advice from peopleā€ not to try to take my (or anyone elseā€™s) answers as ā€œgospelā€? :slight_smile:

Good chart - common situation - I understand and identify with your questions.

The way I resolve that common question, for myself, is that Iā€™ll get in if the distance from where the price is now (having breached support) down to the level of the recent support (that might also turn out to be pending support) is far enough for it to be a worthwhile trade on the basis that by the time it gets there Iā€™ll have taken some profit (partial close?) and/or can move my stop-loss tighter at that point and not lose. If itā€™s a very small distance down to that level, Iā€™ll certainly pass.

Unpredictable. Past S/R and future S/R are two different things that coincide much more often than one would expect by chance alone - is my way of looking at it. I donā€™t think in terms just of ā€œS/Rā€: I think in terms of previous S/R and ā€œpossible future S/Rā€ and ā€œprobable future S/Rā€.

Of course, deciding whatā€™s what takes experience and oneā€™s right only a proportion of the time.

My own rules of thumb are that the more frequently a level has seen S/R the more likely it is to be future S/R, and that the more recently it was S/R (and for myself, I define ā€œrecentlyā€ in accordance with volumes traded, not with time passed), the more likely it is to be future S/R.

In my opinion (and I think itā€™s fairly ā€œorthodox opinionā€, on this point), that makes it less likely to be future S/R unless itā€™s been S/R [I]many[/I] times in the ā€œnon-recentā€ past, in which case itā€™s still quite possible.

I broadly agree. But have probably just expressed it in different (and more long-winded :8: ) words.

Yes - maybe. Iā€™d be more comfortable going in when the price has just passed that.

There are no ā€œyes and noā€ answers to any of these questions, IMO. Volume makes them much easier. The experience of knowing your instrument and the time of day makes them much easier, too (if weā€™re talking about intraday).

Once price breaks ā€œBā€ from the other side, youā€™ll want to wait for the pull back to the shoulder of the top. Think head and shoulder set ups. This way, youā€™ll have an affordable stop if your plan doesnā€™t work.

Think of it as a beginning, middle and end.

Lexys: thank you for your detailed reply. i need some time to think about it allā€¦ thx

Simple, but you are absolutly right. Thanks for remembering!