ANY EXPERIENCED TRADERS MAKING AT LEAST 100k A YEAR TRADING?

Interesting… indeed, yes, it’s hard to deny daily high’s and lows. There are some basic patterns to daily and weekly charts which seem profitable to be sure.

I had a friend once, who back in the mid 1990’s ran a fuzzy logic matching algorithm to… I want to say, a wide variety of stock data. He’s a very thorough and intelligent person, and without presuming anything found a blend of methods and conditions that matched the market very well. In short order, he made something like 40,000 dollars from… I forget precisely, it was something like 10,000 or 15,000 to start. Over the period of just a few months, using one of the early online stock trading brokers… or something.

Of course… in 1995 or so the market started to take off into the first ‘dot com’ bubble… he lost it all shortly thereafter, I think mainly due to the unexpected run up. I can create programs and so forth like he can… but his experiences were a bit of a lesson for me. If I don’t know how to scale out of a winning trade yet ~ then how to know if the automated algorithm is overfitted, or just plain short term? Seems necessary to keep checking the numbers with every trade. Rendering the automated bot a bit secondary.

Desmond…
You and I do not have a good BOT
however good bots…do exist and do make money in all market conditions…
There are people who have built them successfully…I do not know all details
but BucksCoder is one person who has built a successfull bot.
I am being very serious…You could ask him…

DS and Jezz… I must congradulate you both… this is all sounding very high brow and intelectual! LOL I’ll stay tuned and listen… way out of my league! Just a dumb ass long time experienced tech trader. :8:

Hey Carter,

I don’t think any congratulations are in order at this very stage, although I will remain optimistic to keep myself happy for the short term! Who knows what will happen, its obviously not easy in this ‘trade’, so there are guaranteed slip-ups to be found along the way. The question is, just how much will these slip-ups cost, both psychologically and financially.

I’ll trade sounding fancy, for your long time experience any day…

Just some numbers from my side.

All a question of [B]risk[/B] and chance. If you increase risk, you get higher chances. Chance for a blown account included. The smallest risk, i. e. 0%, gives 0% chance to blow an account. The highest risk, i.e. 100% gives 100% chance to blow an account.

There is an academic single optimal risk (greed) factor of 99.99%, but nobody knows the future, so to keep the cash cow alive, it is probably wise to set the risk factor a lot lower beneath the greed factor. Which means less chance.

I red a lot of books of great world class traders and uncountable sentences of their early career which go like this: “I made 100% every year for about x years and then I lost it all in x months.”

If trading by hand or bots is just a question of style. If the system has an edge, both styles can be profitable. A bot can be changed as well as a manual system. I do just believe it is not needed. The markets are mere psychology of human behavior. That never changes.

My best pet so far makes around 100% roi a year with a winning ratio of >80% and a dd of less than 25% with a [U]max. period of less than 6 months to recover[/U]. I checked that in backtest over 1.5 years and live almost a year. Though, right now I am more risk averse. I let it run with just 8% dd and less profit. If my account is large enough, I might increase the risk a bit. My first goal is to keep my account alive and never blow an account. My second goal is consistency. My least important goal is how fast I can make profits. So far I reached all my targets (goal wise) and I even make money with it while I learn. If I compare that to the highest profitable hedge fonds in the world I can compete:

Who Were The Most Profitable Hedge Funds Of 2010? � Dealbreaker: Wall Street Insider – Financial News, Headlines, Commentary and Analysis – Hedge Funds, Private Equity, Banks

Start small, grow slow but steady and never risk more than needed to keep the account alive. That is my way to go. It’s a little like with the turtle and the rabbit:

The Rabbit and the Turtle - Moral Story

This is really interesting. I presume the recovery period is from empirical testing, or is it perhaps a theoretical maximum?

Yes sir, empirical testing. Of course. :wink:

Theoretical maximum is no recover at all. Even if I have a very robust system I could lose. It is all about probabilities. If I recall that correctly there were stages in the market where a price of a dow stock fell in minutes to almost zero and climbed after again to the old value of xxx or something dollar. Anyways, even life on it’s own is risk. So, we have to live with the theoretical risk of losing it all. Probability is very low, but exists. That’s why I do just have risk equity at play there.

However, in most other cases it is much worse. I checked almost 100 different strategies or maybe more. Some of my own ideas and others as well. 90% of those strats are good for losing. No edge at all. Maybe they make some in one year, but you have to give it back a few months later and some more. Right now I have an eye for that if I see the equity chart of a system. If it looks like a rollercoaster, and most look like a rollercoaster, it’s just a matter of time until there is an end to the ride. As with every rollercoaster. Plus as with every rollercoaster, them have to pay for the ride. I hope them enjoyed it, lol.

The numbers I wrote are very similar to those of highly effective hedge funds. There is almost no fund who has not a dd period like that, sometimes a whole year. Those dd periods are part of the business. And that’s where the risk comes into play. If risk is too high, there will not be a recovery. Because the capital at stake is gone forever at those dd periods. Then frankly, why would a professional just risk a little of his account on any one trade? Because he knows it is a fact that those dd periods exist.

Most ppl just look for the profits and never look for the drawdowns. That is like you would learn to depart a plane, but not to land. Then they taxi into position and depart, fly a bit and enjoy their flight and after all have a very hard come back. Then, even if somebody learns to land that gives no warranty for anything. And that’s why I say I would be careful with bragging of extraordinary high returns. Those extraordinary high returns can just be made with a lot of risk. It can go for a while. For a year or some. But sooner or later the rule of reality strikes back in almost all cases. That’s why I say rather look for risk than return. Sure, we want have huge returns, but we can only control risk, not return. What the market gives us, is in control of the market. If I read through those forums all noobs want to know how high they can make it, but they almost never ask for the risk what is needed for that. And risk is not an academic number. It is very real.

At least I think every roi higher than 25% is extraordinary great! Where else can you have those high returns? If this is a consistent roi, then I would classify that as a way better roi than say 500% in one year and -200% in another. Because in the latter case the numbers might switch and if the dd is as large as the account then it means “game over”, lol.

I’ve been thinking about these same sorts of things a lot, unfortunately only in the most general sense. The best I can do at the moment is fibo and support/resistance trading.

This may not be the thread for it, but perhaps there’s a good argument to be made regarding theoretical limits to any given strategy. That is, if there was an ideal strategy, how long would it take for X% of market participants to discover it, render it ineffective, and force the creation of Yet Another Ideal Strategy? Perhaps this is going on all the time, at all timescales… and if so, what would such a curve look like? Fractal perhaps? Hmm… I bet there’s a PhD thesis in there for somebody. This is the age of computers, and there is no shortage of smart people (or dumb ones either, but that’s another discussion).

To really go out onto a limb… this also perhaps gives insight into how the forex game can be won. Consider, X% of all participants are pure gamblers either by intent, or inadvertently… basically participants that by definition take a non~optimal risk/reward ratio. As a species, humans tend to play lotteries which make absolutely no sense from a risk management perspective, and I’d think that a small but solid percentage of participants are doing exactly that here. From that… theoretically, all you have to do is ‘be better than them’ as their actions will reliably pay out to everyone else managing risk more wisely.

Perhaps it’s the old maxim of “You don’t have to outrun a bear yourself, you just have to outrun someone else and let them get eaten instead.” Which perhaps puts an ethical dimension on all this. But it’s the exact same ethical dimension as competing for a job or business marketshare, and as such I don’t feel too badly about it.

Well! I’m going to shush now and end the thread derail… may the search for comfortable experienced traders continue!

Desmond,

This is exactly what I have been saying…First you have to come up with a method…
This is the meat …the rest is just trimmings and side dishes.

Method could be automated or interactive based on what the eye sees and the brain processes…

There are so many books and methods…available…Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Borders have a lot of them…

Okay here we are
here is some more information

This person has a bot !!!
and here are the stats…
in 4 1/2 months these are his figures…
No he is not my friend…
I found this on this same website…BabyPips in another thread…
Here are the details

http://buonvangvn.mt4stats.com/
start date June 30 2010 Balance 2000
end date November 11 2010 Balance 59204.93

Martingale (probability theory) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

last 24 hours I made 70 pips…at 20K lot size …approx 141 usd
Yes…I have a method which works 90 percent of the time…
No…I am not going to share it…But it is pretty simple and it is interactive…
You process information from the charts and trade…No automation…I dont think my method can be automated…

CubanPips…
100 percent wins on shorts and 100 percent wins on longs…
that is mighty good…
No drawdowns…huh !!!

wow
wow
wow
I am impressed…
maybe you could share some of your methods…

I hear his next feat will be to walk to Florida! Outstanding Cubanpip!

You are welcome, CP and congrats regarding your profits! What you wrote is a good sign that you know what you are dealing with. :slight_smile:

Nice quote from good ole Bruce there. We share a similar sport. Plus I can back what you wrote. Beside of ROI etc. would be just bla bla bla, lol.

Hmm, just to add what I would do now. I would extract half of the money and then “play” with what is left. That way you can’t lose anymore. Just my opinion. Plus then maybe you could open anywhere a Cuban restaurant? Seriously, when I flew in Miami I enjoyed those Cubans there, because they were full of happiness and every morning we drove to the same restaurant where they had great coffee. The best coffee ever I got outside of my house. :slight_smile:

CP, I was just guessing. I can’t know if you have that issue with revenge trading or not. Which is just usually the thing if somebody loses his account. As I said, I’d extract now half of the money. That way you can’t lose anymore. It’s also a rational thing: If you can make money consistently and it’s not too much luck involved, you can easily make that extracted money. If however more luck is involved, then you can’t lose it all again and again and again … :wink:

Really nice that you made that, I’d just be careful not to become overconfident. Nobody can predict markets a 100%. My first bot also had a 100% success rate of xx trades, but I did for a reason choose to go with another strategy which has more losers. Sooner or later, well you know what I mean. Sorry to be a bit rational here. Just my opinion and what I would do. You can be happy with that roi. It’s just that those roi’s won’t usually be made consistently say for 10 years or so, because the risk involved is too high for that.

I would continue now with max. 25% risk or lower as dd and a 50%-100% roi a year. That way you can easily increase the account, risk of loss and blown accounts is much less and you could even live from it.

What you do at least, well as Bruce said, lol … :slight_smile:

CP, I do not know your specific situation, so I just write what I would do. And I explained why I would do that. Regarding your decisions, if them are truly your decisions and them are rational to your understanding, of course the best you can do is follow them! On the other hand, life, trading, whatever you look at is not static. We all have not the 100% wisdom, so that’s why sometimes an idea from somebody else might be helpful. If you consider how others or I handle risk/money management to migrate or not is however again your very own decision. Don’t feel obligated to do what I would do or think is best.

Regarding professional investors, I do not think it is the worst thing to make 50-100% roi on average a year, where almost everybody else makes less than 10%. And what I get from reading interviews of professional hedge fund managers is not the reason you mentioned. Even the most consistent hedge funds have losing periods and if risk is too high, they would risk straight chapter eleven. Some hedge funds have losing periods of fund money with a dd of 50%. That is huge! If they would risk more, they would risk their business at once.

Regarding August, 2. They will make it. The deal to rise the debt limit. They are politicians. Making debt with money from others is what they do all the time, lol. Just a little show before they will do it to assure the public that they have a difficult time to spend others money.

Thank you and best regards. :slight_smile:

Well done, sir!

I have a suspicion that most people drawn to post regularly, by and large… are probably skewed a bit toward the ‘doing well’ end of things. That is to say, who would post regularly, if regularly going down in flames? I could be wrong, of course.

I have not made a penny at forex myself, nor lost any yet monetarily… but if hours spent learning were taken as hours that could have been billed at consulting rates… hoo boy!

Everyone’s got to have a hobby, though. I’m delighted to hear that others are doing well.