thos stats come from the brittish government itself. not from tv stations.
at least try not to ignore given facts by simply dennying their value or truthfullness. if you want to come out as intelligent try to give contra arguments and not only ignoring things that are against your views.
im really happy to see you back Manxx!!
i completely agree with what you saud i only dont agree to how you said it. now is not the time to be politically correct. now its time to voice out what your opinion is.
one saud something smart. one side can only win when the other side chooses to be quiet. i see the brexit followers talking 24/7 but the bremain followers beeing quiet and bussy with their work and thinking its all going to be ok somehow and that soneone else will solve the problem
My perspective, exactly.
(Perhaps you and I, both being EU immigrants in another EU country, are likelier than many people to share a perspective on the subject?).
It was always going to be very close: four big opinion polls were published around 12-24 hours before voting opened, two of which were 51/49 for “Remain” and the other two 51/49 for “Leave”, to the nearest percentage point.
I thought the campaigning was particularly poor, from both sides. As so many political journalists have been saying throughout the media, that’s probably a US influence: negative, aggressive campaigning and commentary is significantly on the increase. In America, I suspect that’s mostly because it genuinely works. Over here, I suspect it alienates as many people as it influences, and is broadly counterproductive, or at least not productive in the way intended. Today’s broadsheet newspapers are full of “letters to the editor” from people saying they’d probably have voted the other way, if the hostility of whichever campaign it was hadn’t alienated them. (I think those comments might apply equally to both sides, though, in which case maybe they effectively neutralise each other?)
All over Europe, increasing numbers of people are also voting for parties both of the far left and the far right. I think the political and electoral systems of my parents’ generation is probably gone for ever.
Google it yourself before you come out with nonsense like this
This is so true, Manxx…it is so good to have you back, I was missing your posts…
I wrote this yesterday on Facebook:
"You do not feel that you belong to your family because of your parents’ salary figures: you belong to them because they are part of you, and you of them. This is what it means to be European: you may not know how many jobs it creates exactly or its year-on-year GDP, or even why it is the way it is, but all you can say back is that it is part of your identity, for life. Be proud, be European, regardless of facts and figures: it is part of you, for life. "
As Turbo, I too am a European, and will forever be one, not as a passing fad or just during this referendum… I feel also that central Europe feels its European heritage, with all its scars, much more intensely than Northern Europe: Britain has always had an arm’s length relationship with Europe, and a love-hate rapport with the neighbour of former Napoleonic fame… Some of the economically obsessed commentary leading up to the EU referendum missed the soul of the argument, and also made clear that a lot of Britons never felt European… When I say feeling European I mean that you do not have to make an economic argument to convince yourself that you are…you just ARE.
This was a small point that I wanted to make…but I felt that the way in which Europe was portrayed in some of the debates included a rather lofty, detached tone, as though one were not debating a matter of profound identity and cultural belonging but rather something entirely impersonal, like it was a discussion over wheat prices at the CME corn futures pit…
The British media’s compulsive habit of turning any topic into something monetary or measured in expense terms has practically killed the philosophical and cultural side of the EU debate from the word go… I am disappointed with this, as it really failed to fire up a ‘Bremain’ argument based on compassion, cultural sharedness with other Europeans, and a common destiny.
And sometimes a rather Anglocentric one, it must be said. Some comments I’ve seen in referendum discussions have reminded me of the perspective of that old Times newspaper headline from the 1920’s: “Fog in channel: continent cut off”! :30:
Indeed, esteemed Doctor! This article from 2012 talks just about that:
So what if it was the British gov’t. Many of them wanted to stay in the EU. I guess we should believe everything gov’t tells us without question. Really think about this. 1.5 million people now change their mind because they didn’t think it would happen. This is really a lame excuse. But listen you’re part of a big family of unelected bureaucrats whom were all former communists. Yeah this is why I mentioned socialism in my posts directed to your statements. That’s what the EU is, a failed socialist system.
Bard, if you really want to discuss corrupt government systems I suggest you look at your own country first. Money tslks in the US, money elects governors and presidents, money keeps murderers out of prison.
You may want to read a book by one of your fellow citizens, , before your criticise other nations and political systems
Hi BardBardy,
Yes, I thought exactly the same as you when I first read it, however whether or not this petition exists is purely a factual question and not opinion, and if it does then with sufficient names it has to be handled by parliament. The real question here though, as you maybe are expressing, is who these people who have signed the petition really are! It sounds just as far-fetched that so many pro-exits have suddenly changed their minds as it does that someone has managed to coordinate so many pro-remains to pretend so.
But for me, what makes this question both ligitimate and crucial is the nature of the poll results. This picture says it all: OK the majority voted to exit, but almost as many voted to leave things as they are. When one looks at the graphical representation of the miniscule amount that formed the outcome and then compare that with the enormity of the repercussions then it really does seem out of proportion - to the extent that if it is really so that so many now regret their decisions or, even more so, that their decisions were tangibly based on the false information that they were fed, then I think most people would agree that the situation should certainly at least be investigated thoroughly.
I know what’s going on with American politics. No need to bring this up since it has nothing to do with the Brexit. Socialists like Bernie Sanders want to become president and want to have the gov’t decide everything for you. Sorry smells like the EU.
Does it not bother anyone that the EU has unelected officials passing laws, rules, and regulations on your countries? Is this really not a problem for people?
It just doesn’t, Bard. That’s factually incorrect. The people who [I]pass[/I] laws are [U]elected[/U] Members of the European Parliament.
BardBardy
The house of Lords is unelected…
The Queen is unelected
That should all be a matter of debate
And yet, and yet, it is not
…so we look for cheap political scapegoating OUTWITH
this country…
An all too easy game…
I applaude you, Dr. Lexys…
Brava
Bravissima
It’s a site set up by Parliament, actually a good idea, the purpose is for the House to get a sense of what people feel strongly about.
If a petition on the site receives more than 100k signatories (have to be UK citizen) then Parliament will consider it’s motion for debate, this particular petition has now exceeded the 2 million mark.
Will it make a difference? - not likely.
The die has been cast, now up to business leaders to make the best of it, the politicians have done their work.
People who imagine that Americans wouldn’t want to share or pool their sovereignty to some extent, including for many legislative purposes, might like to ask themselves what part of the expression “[I]United States[/I]” it is that they don’t understand. :27: 
We salute you, oh leader!!
When you understand Liberty then you can talk about the US, but this is a nice video that’s more than informative and factual YouTube
I am sure no one would claim that the EU is properly structured or that it works satisfactorily in any dimension that one cares to investigate. The only reason why this situation has now become the “hot potato” is because the UK had a referendum that had a concrete result that couldn’t be swept under the carpet. I am sure there are many other EU countries that would raise similar concerns if they could also express their collective opinions. But that is not simply a question of whether there should be an EU or not, rather it is what kind of EU we really want to live in.
Personally, I think the EU went wrong when it started to grow on political and strategic ambitions rather than just economic and trade. It is obvious that any country wanting to join the EU is calculating how much it is going to gain from it compared with its contribution and yet it is clearly impossible for everyone to net gain in raw currency terms. But it seems that considerations of NATO and geo-political positioning have overridden the economic rationale in accepting member countries.
In addition, I believe that the Euro was a mistake in spite of the efficiency gains in the business world. History has already demonstrated that a common currency cannot work unless all the participants have pretty much identical economies in legislative, fiscal and monetary terms as well as productivity, industrial, commercial and workforce charactistics. How can that possibly work with approx 20 countries all with independent governments and with charactistics as varied as mediterranean and Nordic identities? In the past,with individual currencies, problems such as the Greek, Spanish and Irish economic disparities could be painfully but swiftly corrected with, for example, devaluations. But with a [I]common [/I]currency these disparities become an inevitable [I]common [/I]problem where one country can simply lean on the others. The solutions become issues of major industrial and economic restructuring that can take decades to implement effectively.
But in spite of its shortfalls, the EU has much to offer its members both on a national level and on an individual level. Many want their voices heard and when they are ignored then frustration turns to negation and collective negation turns to rejection instead of advancement. That is the pity.
