Heartbreaking.
What do you think can we do as individuals?
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What are the benefits derived from begging? 
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For over 20 years we have allocated a portion of our income after tax to charitable causes. I asked my wife to choose which ones. she supports two orphanages in Syria for children who have lost their parents in the war of the past decade. She has supported one of them for over 30 years. Like anything you plan, you don’t have to decide “how much to allocate”. You decide that at the beginning of your plans, and stick to it. If you make losses, it’s hard to lower contributions to something you have committed to.
So we don’t exactly calculate this stuff to the penny, but here are our 30 year guidelines we try to stick to:.
Gross income after taxes 100%
Mandatory costs 40%
Discretionary costs 30%
Reinvestments 20%
“Other, including charity” 10%
Almost everyone I talk to about this (and that is well over 100 people) say it is impossible. For anyone physically and mentally capable of holding down a full time job in a developed country, I maintain that it is indeed possible. It is not easy, but it is possible. I say this from experience. I have mentored over 20 individuals, and this is the starting point of all discussions about “investment”. The best investment you will ever make in life is the stuff you DON’T buy. Just open your wardrobe and take out anything you have not worn for a year. Put it away in a box, take it out next year. If you have still not worn it, send it to the charity shop or throw it away. Look at your desk. Is it always tidy or always messy. One Saturday, get up an hour earlier than normal. Take everything off your desk and find a place to store it (preferably in the top desk drawer if it is temporary. If you cant find a space for it, put it in a box. Keep it till next Saturday. Get up an hour early the next week, and start tidying out drawers in your office, kitchen, living room, whatever. Throw stuff away until there is enough space to put all the junk on your desk out of sight.
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I have spoken to buskers and beggars in the streets of London, Manchester and our local town. I normally kick off a conversation by asking how they feel, do they want a cup of coffee or a meal. Some sell The Big Issue (https://www.bigissue.com/), others play instruments or sing, some just sit there with a bowl in front of them.
It is my understanding that a professional busker can earn about £80 a day in the London suburbs on high footfall thoroughfares. I am also reliably informed in Manchester City Centre that £40 to £60 is a reasonable estimate of gross income before costs (food, drink). I think that is what tommor meant by benefits derived from begging.
Given that an adult in the UK can earn about £1,000 per month before paying any income tax, it does make me wonder why we just don’t give every adult over 18 years of age a £1,000 sum every month, regardless of their employment status, and start income tax at the first £1 that anyone earns from a “job”. That makes about 500,000 extra people available to work instead of just bean counting how much all other citizens should be receiving in benefits. That is an annual saving of about 500,000 x £12,000 = £6 billion per year, assuming those paid by the government to count and collect taxes from all others just collect their own Universal Income and don’t work again. If they work in productive jobs, each £1 they earn above the basic £12,000 per year could be taxed at about 50% so the net burden on universal income payments is less, not more.
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Free money, plus occasional hot drinks and food from passers-by. Also food and clothing from charities who work with the homeless.
You must understand that in the UK not all beggars on the street are homeless. They have homes and beg for money because they want more money.
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I’ve been seeing a few of thiose as well @ponponwei - Excellent topic btw (one of my pet hates about Babypips is that you can only see “Stuff” posted in the last few hours ! and I’ve only just come across this thread !)
As I understand the problem in USA - it stems from the fact that only thefts over around $900 count as “crimes” - so shoplifting goes completely unpunished. ! - I also saw a similar “report” which saoid the only items not “Locked away” were Sanitary Towels and similar products (Hardly worth stealing ? )
However like @Mondeoman and @tommor - I am in the uk and we have different versions of the problems - which also link to a thread I made some time ago - but the numbers have now changed from 12 to 13 I believe
Again Here in the UK - H,meless men cannot access State Benefits because they have “No fixed abode” - Homeless women - will be housed by Local Councils immediately and therefore access Benefits with minimum inconvenience - so they can then get work if tehy want to whereas the same u=issue of “no fixed abode” prevents men from working ! - Almost ALL truly homeless people in UK are men. And there is NO Recognised method of escaping this trap !
Many of us up until a couple of years ago knew where a “tramp” “Lived” on a semi-permanent basis - but Govt pressure on Local Authorities have meant these poor guys have been “Moved on” and many have simply “died”.
I have an “In-Law” Relative who boasts that he went and set fire to a Tramp’s HOME" with a bucket of petrol - simnply because he (the Tramp) - “Lived tehre” and somehow offended this obnoxious man - by just existing !
When I left School 50 odd years ago - a lad in my year and two of his “mates” were sentenced for Murdering a “tramp” - who (we all knew) lived under a low bridge to escape the rain. They just went and kicked him to death “For a laugh” in the middle of the night.
Personally I think @tommor 's picture of “Beggars in luxury” - is an Urban Myth - rather than a reality.
[I would point out however that if I were to be “Homeless” - California USA is a far more tempting location than Newcastle (uk) ]
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itQg-SUQDAE
Who’s this
WE ?
What if I don’t want you to take £12,000 a year off me to pay for some random punter and another £12,000 to pay for myself ?
By the time our “Civil Servants” have run their filthy little fingers through my £24 k - and had their PENNORTH" - We’m gotta be looking at £40,000 per year extra tax for every real worker !
AND
does @tommor with his grubby little gold plated Quango pension on top of his “State Pension” - Still get this £12,000 as well ? 
{Who is John Galt ?}
We - means - an elected government that would treat universal income as it it named - i.e., universal. Of course everyone would get the £12K. That is what a universal income means. I’m not proposing that anyone takes £12,000 off you. That is the point. You get £12K coz you are an adult. So does your wife, so does any other adult over 18 years who happens to live in your home. When I piloted robotic process robots in a commercial global company 2 years ago I challenged why these “robots” were required to have a date of birth, date of hire and unique identifier. It dawned on me that our future taxation system will over-tax companies for each and every robot that replaces a human being’s job, and those human beings would then choose whether to do nothing, or do something. Some would choose to do nothing but there is only a certain amount of “doing nothing” a human can tolerate before they go brain dead. So what is it going to be when there is 25%+ unemployment? Civil war, or universal benefits? You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how it is going to turn out.
You can think what you like, thoughts are just opinions if they are without facts. And there’s a thin line between an opinion and pathological bias or delusion.
OOPS ! 
- Sorry if I poked a tender spot Tom ! I can be a bit “Autistic” sometimes in my communications style 
No particular offence meant mate 
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I think if you made Internet cafes complimentary you could have a number of these people making money online in no time with the opportunities available now. Plus as is the issue in many case it solves the problem of needing a permanent address to get work.
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So lets chuck a few numbers up
Uk pop c 80 mill - say 60 mill “Adult”
Pay each one £12 = £720,000,000
Pay each one £12,000 = £720, 000.000.000
That’s £720 Billion - each year. = 3/4 Trillion every year !
UK National debt (2020) = £2.2 Trillion
UK GDP = c £2 Trillion per year
So everything we make or “Do” - by way of work = all adds up to c£2 Trillion and we pay ourselves c£2Trillion for doing it.
So take year 1 of your “UBI”
Everything we do or make adds up to £2 Trillion - But now we pay ourselves £2.72 Trillion for doing it !
Result ?
Can you explain how we are to Make or “Do” more (with examples perhaps) to add up to that £2.72 Trillion ? - I can of course 
[ EDIT -
"Brass Starring Timothy West and Barbara Ewing series 1 ep10 - YouTube
]
Yup. If I have not found use for anything in over a year, that means I can live without it.
Definitely has to be prioritized.
Sooo… they go home to actual comfortable homes???
Omg that is horrible!
Here we’re starting to see that too at least in places in NYC where crimes made by the homeless is increasing. Some vigilantes are starting to hurt homeless people in retaliation perhaps? All senseless.
I met a guy who was once homeless and he talked to me about how it was like being on the streets with no bed to sleep in or a home to return to. It was so heartbreaking to think that after a long day’s work, you stay in your car to sleep… if you even have one… You shower at a local YMCA, do your stuff in public places… So difficult for me to imagine.
I don’t think they live in luxury but they do not live overnight on the street. A few years back, several genuine charitable organisations in a town a few miles from where I live took a really good look over the details of street beggars in their area - of the initial group of 17 “homeless” people, they found that only 2 were homeless. And these were charities, not political organisations - charities that were set up to help the genuinely homeless.
In our major cities the media have long been reporting that networks of beggars are usually Roma people from Romania. They have homes in Romania and they have temporary accommodation here too but they beg on UK streets for charity because its more profitable.
even though the housing situation is dire in the uk at the moment ,most homeless people are addicted to alcohol or drugs.The stresses of coping with everyday issues, are too much for some people ,its a “release” been on the streets…Beggars/shop lifters are a different problem .
i dont watch much TV but i watched a program on Sunday about Slab City situated in the Sonaron Desert California it was quite compelling
It’s strange where I live. The “homeless” seem to appear in teams, in the same intersections of town, for a couple of days and then theyy disappear… Usually with no belongings. The issue got so bad the county here decided to put up signs in those intersections telling motorists NOT to give to the beggars, but instead tell them to read the sign, which provides contact information for homeless services/assistance. Yet, month after month, almost on a schedule, they return, to the same spots. Then they disappear. And then reappear at several intersection in the same general vicinity. Makes me think they are more likely not homeless and just panhandling.
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Hi,
Good counter. I shall try to explain how we may “make or do more”. Please bear with me on this. There is nothing new here, except that my recent area of interest in crypto has brought this full circle from my experiences of the 1970s and 1980s.
Crypto is all about new currencies, but if we are to learn anything about crypto useful to us as individuals, it is a deeper understanding of what is lovingly referred to as the phenomenon of “impermanent loss” in providing liquidity pairs to extreme promises of annual APR figures in the tens of thousands.
I failed to understand this term a few months ago, and it was the extraordinary use of the word “impermanent” in describing the phenomenon that took me a while to understand, until I understood 2 or 3 examples of it relating to my own portfolio. Like many things in our wonderful world of finance, the use of this word relating to crypto currencies I now loosely describe as “smoke and mirrors”. On a cynical day I may refer to it as “snake oil” or just downright misdirection.
All those snake oil salesmen are doing in crypto is extending what has been practiced for centuries in the treatment of fiat currencies by historical governments, be they socialist or capitalist. As my wife sometimes says “same sh_t, different smell”.
It relates to debasement of currency. And the behaviour of the fiats is no different than the behaviour of the cryptos. They lose their buying power over time. But the cryptos do not yet have the kudos or “backing” of jurisdictional governments to make their use or misuse “acceptable” to the public.
I refer, of course, to the stealth tax called inflation.
First agreement with your macroeconomic figures. I broadly agree with your figures, and provide links to the information sources.
UK population over 18 79% of 68.5M = 54.1M
Pay everyone £12K per year. Cost is 54.1M x £12K = £649Bn (or 86% of your estimate of £720Bn, but what is 14.5% between friends a mere year’s worth of difference?). Close enough.
68.5M current x 0.79 = 54.1M
Second - Govt debt is £2,223 Bn and last year’s addition was £324Bn, or 15% of GDP
• UK government debt and deficit - Office for National Statistics
• UK general government gross debt was £2,223.0 billion at the end of the financial year ending March 2021, equivalent to 103.6% of gross domestic product (GDP).
• UK general government deficit (or net borrowing) was £323.9 billion in the financial year ending March 2021, equivalent to 15.1% of GDP.
Third - deflators since 1978/1979
The figures show that GDP has grown by 6.0% per year compounded over 42 years using the compound formula A = P(1+i)^n where A = £2,223Bn (2021), P = £192Bn (1978), and n = 42 years.
So it’s time for the government to repeat the practices of the 1970s (not just our government - the USA has printed 40% more USDs (M2) in the past two years than all USDs in existence prior to 2000).
Analysis of recent gloom and doom news.
Pending world war 3 (blame historical enemies, sanction them, get the public on your side, tell them that times are going to be harder) - prepare the public to be on the side of their government - there is a foreign enemy to beat here and instead of moaning about how useless the government is, the general public decide to support their governments’ decisions to “kill the enemy”. Note here that whether the enemy targets are real or imaginary depends on the success of the preparation plan.
The pandemic has created real shortages of goods. Great excuse for price rises.
Wage inflation must follow so that the citizens are not starved to death.
Proposed solution for ultimate citizen worship of their government
Announce a universal basic income to cope with inflation (the stated enemy of the state caused by world events such as the pandemic and the pending WW3)
Implement the UBI
Here is what a 15% inflation per year looks like in 10 years time.
Current GDP £2,223bn, GDP in 10 years when inflation is 15% per year = £8,993bn.
Maintain a continuous deficit of £650bn per year - this does not take into account the current £192bn spent on current income support, housing support, or other taxes that would be zeroised with a UBI), so let’s say the net cost is something like £450bn, and is held static for 10 years. £450bn is 20% of current net debt, but is only 5% of net debt in 10 years’ time.
Additional tax revenue? Take your pick. If you can convince the public that they will all receive a minimum basic income regardless of whether they work or not, how can the majority complain? Increase VAT to 25% more like the EU, move the basic tax rate to 50% for any income over £12K per year. The important element here is that the use of magic money can continue to hoodwink the majority of citizens as it has done for 5,000 years since currencies began, and be thanked for it. Job done.
Summary
Note that this situation is simplified from reality but shows how “impermanent loss” can be applied to a currency that its citizens relate to as “static” in terms of value, but in fact has eroded real purchasing power 1,000% over the past 42 years and 10,000% over the past 100 years.
I rest my case
Hi,
The last time I checked at my local library, limited internet access was available. But I did not check how the homeless may be disadvantaged. Same goes for a job centre. The last time I went to our local job centre (with a recently arrived Romanian immigrant), I was less than impressed with the culture of the staff. They basically pointed me at four computers and said “all the jobs are on there”. None of them were functional, so I asked was there an IT helpdesk I could call to find out when the terminals would be repaired and he handed me six pieces of poor quality photocopied advice - all of which had web links to internet-access based services.
I wondered what the internal audit services for such local services looked like, then decided he’d be better off socializing with his other Romanian colleagues who had been here a bit longer than he.
Mate - I’m 40 years a QS ! 
(although latterly concentrating mostly on Forensic Contractual Claims and Litigations)
"Quantity surveyor - Wikipedia
.
Just Top of the head stuff - done “on the back of a fag packet”- But without undue bias - so good we are starting from a similar viewpoint.
Not quite “the same” - for a couple of quite big reasons
- a) “governments” do Not actually control “their currencies” - Private Companies (Central Banks - actually Do that - and “Loan” the money to the “Governments” at Interest ! (though why on earth that should be has often been a matter of debate - sometimes vitrioloic)
- b) Cryptos (I think of Bitcoin in particular) are supposed to be “finite” in total amount and beyond Governmental Manipulation (Which is one of the main reasons “Governments”, “Banks” and “Regulators” concurrently Hate and Covet them !
- So “cryptos” do have some of the properties of a “gold Standard” wheeas “Fiat” currencies suffer from the same issues which destroyed the original “Paper Money” invented by John LAw. - Those are the same issues which “Modern Monetary Theory” relies upon to propose and be relaxed about “Quantitave Easing” / “Printing money” - call it what you will - a sort of Keynesianism on Steroids! -
AND imo “UBI” would absolutely need to operate in the realms of MMT (ie nobody ever pays their debts back) [At least - Not if you’re a GOVERNMENT"]
Personally I’m ambivalent about “Cryptos” - I do feel that they do offer sonme hope for humanity - because - if everyone actually read and understood this book
They would understand just what a fraudulent con trick “Money” actually is and simply refuse to use the stupid stuff !
The book is however hugely informative - the more so since it is the only convincing explanation I havve ever heard of the “Business cycle” - which Classical Economics just basically ignores !
[If you do buy it - jsut ignore the second half (it is split in two) and I think it credits “Governments” with way too much
- a) Integrity
- b) Goodwill towards the population as a whole !
- c) Sound Judgement
I’ve thought about your UBI for a while both before and since you mentioned it - as One or two others whose judgement I respect also seem enamoured of it - and now I think it is simply a device which follows the principles of Marxism and relies on the same “Need to act in the best interests of the group” shich is the fundamental flaw of Socialism in general !
Your particular version has a couple of fundamental flaws which would render it unworkable “as it is” - for example - you say that Tommor would simply receive his £12,000 on top of his State pension and his “Public Employee’s Pension” - yet you also imply that the single parent mother - with th efive kids - would be expected to fund hetr own Housing and Utilities costs as well as feeding, and clothing her brood (all on that £12,000) which is clearly neither equitable nor possible - yet those adminsitering her “Benefits” would have been sacked to get “Proper jobs” !
[EDIT - I was just reading through this and realised - Jeez - £12,000 per adult ! - That’s a tax on kids ! - in a world of worrying population decline - that is teh kiss of death to Western Civilisation ! ]
So compexities would have to be introduced and still those on micro incomes would not benefit - and most (one suspects) would suffer greatly - both n comparative terms and in absolute terms because one again suspects that the net effect of all those £12.000’s would be simply to push property and accomodation costs “through the roof” - especially in our congested little island.
Inflation
Inflation - despite being demonised by successive “rich men” and “Bankers” - is actually the friend of the debtor and of the “Property owner” - in fact ANY “Asset owner” benefits from Inflation - whereas those who are “Saving” and those on fixed incomes are devastated finacially as it devalues “Money” and kills the assets of “Pensions Saving” stone dead ! - Pointless “Saving towards a pension” in tnflationary times - unless those “Savings” are held in “Assets”.
IN fact I am amazed it has taken so long for “Inflation” to kick in - From around 2005 to 2007 I used to meet up several times a year to discuss with a few Mates - what to do about the forthcoming Banks Crash! [ which we all knew was coming] - They ALL without exception followed teh doctrines of Martin Weiss and Bob Prechter and expected massive deflation as teh Banks went Bust [because the debts were too big for “giovernments” to bale out !
I was the ONLY one who said - "No they will ‘Bale them out’ and then Inflate their way ouit of it "!
THe real problem is that "Government Debt is now so big that the INTEREST on teh Govt Debt - will become unpayable if they increas “Bank Rate” to combat Inflation !
So what say we - Hungary ? Germany / John LAw ? Rome 200o years ago ? - they ALL went the same way - unpayable debt - financed by “Quantitive Easing” - Followed by simple Lack of Public Confidence in “Money”
Pronlem is - if the USA and Uk go that way - then what WILL the rest of the worlsd call “Money” and why should anyone actually trust THAT “currency” in any case ?
No mate - the world of “real money” is in a severe crisis and it may be that your Cryptos and NFTs - Do become the "Phoenix rising from the ashes ! - I do wonder if that is WHY "Bitcoin so stubbornly “holds up” ?
[EDIT 2 - If I sound somewhat dogmatic or dismissive - it comes from 40 years as a QS - Monthly valuations - Argiue like hell all morning - go out for lunch and a nice chat - argue like hell all afternoon - then shake hands on the agreed price and wander off happy until next month. - Also th estroppy contractual letters - so I never devoloped the skills of diplomatic argument - which I so admire in your writings - PLease don’t feel intimidated - It’s just my way and I’d really like a decent discussion / argument on this one ! ]
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