Managing Risk

Ok guys Im taking the plunge and am starting a thought provoking thread that I think will help us grow as traders. In this thread I am going to be discussing theorys directly from The Zurich Axioms by Max Gunther. I will be quoting his work often.

If you are to be successful at forex you must learn to manage your risk.

In all fairness to Max and his work whenever I quote from him directly or indirectly I will use this text

This thread is about betting to win…everybody wants to win but not everybody wants to bet…if you don’t mind taking reasonable risks or even better if you enjoy risk than this thread is for you.

The axioms, in short apply to any situation in which you put money at risk in order to get more money

[B]To make any kind of gain in life-a gain of wealth, personal stature, whatever you define as gain- you must place some of your material and or emotional capital at risk…

to become a butterfly a catapillar must grow fat, and to grow fat it must venture out to where the birds are, there are no appeals, it is the law.[/B]

stay tuned guys tomorrow I will introduce you to the first axiom, risk

please feel free to comment or lurk I only ask that you be polite on this thread and we all have a right to our opinions. Im looking foward to yours

thanks, John

Zurich_axioms.pdf (346 KB)

[B]Be warned: The axioms are somewhat startling when you first encounter them.

They are not the kind of advice most investment councelors hand out. Indeed they contradict some of the most cherished cliches of the investment-advice business[/B].

In all fairness to Max and his father I will share a little history

[B]The term “Zurich Axioms” was coined by a club of Swiss stock and commodity
plungers who collected around Wall Street after the Second World War. My father was one of the founding members. It wasn’t a formal club. There were no bylaws, dues, or membership lists. It was simply a group of men and women who liked each other, wanted to get rich, and shared the belief that nobody ever got rich from a salary. They met irregularly at Oscar’s Delmonico and other Wall Street watering places…[/B].

[B]My father was a Swiss banker, Zurich-born and -bred. The given names on his birth certificate were Franz Heinrich, but in America everybody called him Frank Henry.

When he died a few years ago his obituaries made much of the fact that he had headed the New York branch of the Schweizerbankverein – Zurich’s financial colossus, the Swiss Bank Corporation. That job was important to him, but he once told me that what he really wanted engraved on his tombstone was this sentence: “He gambled and won.”[/B]

With all due respect to you, the author of this thread and to “Frank Henry” as he was called here in the states, and to his son, to gamble without having an idea of the outcome is folly. That is why I prefer not to use the terms "bet and “wager” and “gamble”.

Life is a gamble. Money isn’t. Money is the means. Money is the tool or the vessel. Finance is the venue. Forex is the train that is driven by the world economy.

That being said, profit and loss are just a part of the circle.

you asked for opinions, that’s one of mine…

Good luck and good pippin,

Chubs

to gamble without having an idea of the outcome is folly

I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine when I say there is no way whatsoever to know what the markets will do ever.

No way my friend the markets can do anything they want to at any given timeand for any given reason.

We traders speculators or gamblers whatever you are comfortable with are making trades based on the highest probable outcome but the best of us realize that anything can happen and therefore we are ready and prepared close a trade at the first sign we are wrong coz even a “perfect” setup can move against us.

So if the markets are capable of moving against us for no apparant reason aren’t we in a sense gambling without truly knowing the outcome???

Hi johnny,

I’m working my way through The Zurich Axioms. It is an incredibly good read. I’ll post here more as I continue to read my way through it.

  • C

** Warning: Shameless Thread Plug Incoming

Btw, have you checked out the No Head Gnomes Allowed thread? Come join our ranks!

Curion right on! I hope more people take advantage of this thread coz the zurich axioms are excellent and their wisdom is profound. It is guarenteed to make better traders out fo us!!!

Ill come check your thread out too :slight_smile:

There’s really two types of gamblers. The type that find out how to play the game in a way that has the odds in their favor and the usual type that is just doing it for thrills and giggles and just hoping they win.

The first type IS more like a trader, the second type is what most people are refering too when they say day trading is just gambling.

Trading appears to be the second type of gambling to a lot of people because you have to risk some money in order to make some. Most people can’t wrap their head around this concept because they would rather have a, “sure thing,” and receive a paycheck for x amount of hours of work.

I tend to agree with the Axiom presented by Zurich. I’ve started a couple successful home businesses and failed at about a dozen others. When starting a venture there is always some outlay of capitol or time invested or just work to get an idea to a marketable stage. All of that without any guarantee it will even be profitable. So, although not directly gambling with money, it becomes a gamble of a sort. Because if you spend time/money/effort on an endeavor of weeks or months or years and it doesn’t pan out you end up losing quite a bit of whatever you had to spend, that you could have devoted some where else.

All of the above is why I think trading is a truly awesome business if you can do it profitably, because you are dealing directly with money. Either losing it or making it. No middle men or products or ads or advertising or selling or performing a service or hoping you get repeat customer.

People like to quote the, “95% of traders fail,” statistic. Ha, I say, try to start a conventional business from scratch without anyone helping you or connecting the dots. That failure rate is more like 99.99%…

I can’t help but agree. However…

does that mean that professional gamblers are traders? (a bit off topic, I know)

Technically no, because other than their effort and time and money they aren’t trading anything. At least a Forex trader, when you take their own monetary risk out of the though process, is still trading currency. Likewise a stock trader is still trading stock.

A professional gambler is closer to a trader, in that, they are trying to win money using the highest probability edge they know of for their particular game.

Every thing in life is a gamble. having a normal job is a gamble. BHP fired 6000 people today across the world with no notice. 300 in the town where I live that were contractors so they get no payout or anything.

hey guys I just wanted to share with you that later in the book a little Max (the author) talks about how being a good poker player is very helpful to the speculator especialy in regards to knowing when to fold. IMHO all speculation is a gamble howbeit a very educated one because the reality is nobody knows for sure the outcome and it takes money to make money so you have to risk in order to receive.

In a little bit I wil post the first axiom and a little about it.

Guys a side note I hope you don’t mind those posts will be a little on the long side, I have tried to trim them down but they are still a bit lengthy. Even though they are going to be lengthy they are still worth the read and I will post one every day or so as to not overwhelm people :slight_smile:

Thanks, John

Great Post phx!!! You hit 2 or 3 nails on the head IMHO. I would add that even people working “factory jobs” for “established” companies are in a sense gambling as well. Very few people in very few occupations hold very many of the cards and as such they are gambling that those “overpaid corporate types” who do hold the cards, know what they are doing. For whatever reason people have a hard time realizing that whether you are working for an established company, starting and running your own business (this is the category I fall into, or trading currency you are in some sense gambling! My point is that all people, regardless of if they realize it or not, are career gamblers.

I wonder what percentage of career people, get laid off, fired, or even worse marginlized at some point in a 30+ year career? If I had to guess I would say close to 100% (73% of statistics are just made up on the spot :D)

Looking forward to the axioms johnnyk… I don’t mind if they are a little long.

This is a fascinating look into the psyche aspect of trading. More importantly, the money management aspect is the part i’m also interested in, as i think it is the MOST important lesson, if you want to stay in the game, a lesson which i am continuously trying to learn. I’ll be looking to follow this thread as well, Johnny.

thanks traderboy!!! Ive got some really great stuff coming up soon.

[B]The First Major Axiom:
ON RISK

Worry is not a sickness but a sign of health. If you are not worried, you are not risking enough.

It is the central assumption of modern psychology that mental health means, above all, being calm. This unexplored assumption has dominated shrinkish thought for decades. How to Stop Worrying and Start Living was one of the earlier books dealing with this dogma, and The Relaxation Response was one of the later ones. Worry is harmful, the shrinks assure us. They offer no trustworthy evidence that the statement is true. It has become accepted as true through sheer relentless assertion. Devotees of mystical and meditational disciplines, particularly the eastern varieties,
go still further. They value tranquility so much that in many cases they are willing to endure poverty for its sake.

Some Buddhist sects, for example, hold that one shouldn’t strive for possessions and should even give away what one has. The theory is that the less you own, the less you will have to worry about.

The philosophy behind is, of course, the exact opposite.
Perhaps freedom from worry is nice in some ways. But any good Swiss speculator will tell you that if your main goal in life is to escape worry, you are going to stay poor. You are also going to be bored silly.
Life ought to be an adventure, not a vegetation. An adventure may be defined as an episode in which you face some kind of jeopardy and try to overcome it. While facing the jeopardy, your natural and healthy response is going to be a state of worry. Worry is an integral part of life’s grandest enjoyments. Love affairs, for instance. If you are afraid to commit yourself and take personal risks, you will never fall in love. Your life may then be as calm as a tidal pool, but who wants it?

Another example: sports. An athletic event is an episode in which athletes, and vicariously spectators, deliberately expose themselves to jeopardy – and do a powerful lot of worrying about it. It is a minor adventure for most of the spectators and a major one for the athletes. It is a situation of carefully created risk. We wouldn’t attend sports event and other contests if we didn’t get some basic satisfaction out of them. We need adventure.

The economic structure of the world is rigged against you. If you depend on job income as your main pillar of support, the best you can hope for is that you will get through life without having to beg for food. Not even that is guaranteed.

Oddly, the vast majority of men and women do depend principally on job income, with savings as a backup. It used to annoy Frank Henry that middle-class people in America are pushed in this direction inexorably by their education and social conditioning. “A kid can’t escape it,” he would grumble. “Teachers, parents, guidance counselors, and everybody else, they all keep hammering at the kid: ‘Do your homework or you won’t get a good job.’ Getting a good job – that’s supposed to be the high point of anybody’s ambitions. But what about a good speculation? Why don’t they talk to kids about that?” I was one kid who got talked to about it plenty. Frank Henry’s rule of thumb was that only half of one’s financial energies should be devoted to job income. The other half ought to go into investment and speculation.

The only way you are ever going to lift yourself above the great unrich – absolutely the only hope you have is to take a risk.

Yes, of course, it is a two-way street. Risk-taking implies the possibility of loss instead of gain. If you speculate with your money, you stand to lose it. Instead of ending rich, you can end poor.

But look at it this way. As an ordinary tax-hounded, inflation-raddled incomeearner, carrying much of the rest of the world on your back, you are in pretty sorry financial state anyhow.

What real difference is it going to make if you get a bit poorer while trying to get richer? You aren’t likely to get much poorer, not with as part of your equipment. But you can get very much richer. There is farther to go upward than downward – and no matter what happens, you will have an adventure. With the potential gain so much bigger than the potential loss, the game is rigged in your favor.

All this talk of risk and worry may make it sound as though the speculator’s life is lived at the edge of a precipice. This isn’t so. True, there are times when you get that shuddery feeling, but such times come rarely and don’t usually last long. Most of the time you will be worried only enough to make life spicy. The degree of risk we are talking about really isn’t very great.

Virtually all gain-oriented financial manipulation involve risk, whether one calls oneself a speculator or not. The only nearly risk-free course you can take with your money is to put it into an interest-bearing bank account, a government bond, or some other saving-like deposit. There is risk even in doing that. Banks are known to fail. If a bank collapsed with your money stuck inside it, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) would reimburse you, but only after a long delay with no interest. If dozens of banks were to turn belly-up all at once in some nationwide economic
catastrophe, then not even the FDIC would be able to fulfill its obligations. It, too, would fail. Nobody knows what would happen to depositors’ money in a situation like that. Luckily, there is only a small chance that such nightmares will come to pass. A bank account is as close to riskless as any investment you are ever going to find in this chancy world.
[/B]

Looking forward to the axioms johnnyk… I don’t mind if they are a little long.

Thanks sandpipper lol i told you the post would be a little lenthy. Just wait till we get into it though it is such awesome advice on speculation

The first Axiom is great! It reinvigorates and galvanizes the main reason WHY WE ARE ALL HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. It’s like a central mantra that helps keep us all focused on our goals.

I like it already. I don’t care how lengthy the posts are, they read like a book ( it IS a book lol) and should help educate me financially, or at the very least, keep me entertained when i want to take a brief respite from looking at the charts.

Keep the daily posts coming, Johnny-Boy.

The economic structure of the world is rigged against you

Virtually all gain-oriented financial manipulation involve risk

these are 2 of my favorite points coz you are not going to get anywhere if you just do the status quo. yes you could be happy with a job and a salary even if it pays well but if you want freedom in your life then you have to do more.

Doing more involves risk and yes risk can make us feel uncomfortable. Don’t get me wrong I don’t say blindly do anything quite the contrary when we go a little further you will see that the axioms also call you to be responsible and make good decisions but for now just know you need risk maybe even outside some of our comfort zones but that is what it takes and

[B]honestly these axioms have the abilty to help you become disgustingly filthy rich[/B]

[QUOTE][Keep the daily posts coming, Johnny-Boy.
/QUOTE]

thanks traderboy

You got me so interested that I just went ahead and bought the book from amazon.com I find so many nuggets of wisdom on this site. Thanks for the tip.