Can someone tell me how to interpret this ATR indicator. This is GFT platform and it only shows volatility not the average pips range. From what I’ve been following in this thread the ATR is supposed to tell you the average pips the pair ranges during a particular period but I can’t figure out how to translate this indicator into the avg # of pips the pair moves in a day or more importantly how to use it to help with stop settings. I’ve tried to explain this to the GFT chatters but they said they don’t have an indicator for the average pips per day. Thanks in advance for any help:confused:
Hi Graviton,
I have added this to my Favorities folder. List of available videos on the same page. I’ll watch them later
Good start Indy. At this point, it’s just practice, improve plan, repeat. Let us know if you have any specific questions and let us know your results as the week goes by.
I’m not familiar with your platform, but it looks like you have plotted a 14 period ATR and it currently has a value of 168 pips. On my platform I can hover my mouse over a point on the ATR line and it will give me the value at that point. Do refer to the youtube videos and google articles on ATR to see how to use that info to set stops.
will do, really need to figure out how to post charts!
Hi Gravition, Thanks for the reply. Yes I have watched the utube video and understand the stops I was just having trouble with the way the indicator is presented. So your take is that the .0168 figure translates into 168 pips?
as I understood from the video, the value of ATR is set in points. To set your stop you have to double value of ATR.
Say, your ATR value equals to 0.0100 (its 100 poins). Your stop is 200 points.
The higher value of ATR then more volatile market and therefore candles are longer
I wonder how to convert points to pips??
If there is any doubt, call the customer service of your broker and ask to speak to the expert on your platform type. My broker customer service always has someone available that is a platform guru and they have always been able to answer all my questions quickly and precisely.
We’ve spent a lot of effort now perfecting a trading system. The system we have designed is the best system I know of for minimizing your risk and making consistent high returns. We will continue to discuss where we can make improvements, since trading is all about improving, but I wanted to touch on the psychology of trading for a moment as this will have a huge impact on results.
The systems we have discussed are designed to take greed and fear out of your trading as much as possible. Decisions of when to put a trade on and when to take profit off or exit the trade at a small loss are already made for you before you enter the first trade of the week. All you need is the discipline to follow the rules to make a nice steady profit. Money management is built in so you automatically cut your losses short and maximize your gains. Unfortunately, greed and fear are part of being human and they can never be eliminated completely. If left unchecked they will destroy your trading career. At this point, greed and fear are the biggest threats to your success.
You can put too tight a stop on and get quickly stopped out in a volatile market and it will not affect your career, or conversely run too wide a stop and give up a few more pips on a stop out than you needed to. That problem can be worked and optimized by using the tools we have discussed, but taking small manageable losses on the chin, as Indy said in his trading plan, is an important part of successful trading. Whether you give up 5 pips too many or don’t squeeze that extra 5 pips of profit from a particular trade will not affect your career over the long run. What will destroy your career is fear and greed, so we need to address that specific issue now.
Since fear and greed can never be totally eradicated from the human mind, your trading system must be designed to combat this twin headed monster. If you haven’t had to fight this battle yet, your time is coming and the battle will be intense. The last thing you want to happen is to have to make decisions about how to fight the good fight while you are in a trade. Choose your field of battle to give yourself the best chance of victory. All those decisions should be made ahead of time when you have nothing at risk and encoded as rules in your system. I’ll give you a quick list of money management rules that should be encoded in your trading plan as a defense in the beginning, but we will need to improve upon this list as our plans evolve. I hope to get questions and have a lively discussion on this topic moving forward.
The total risk to your trading capital can be defined as the position size times the stop loss value of your trades. Risk per trade should be limited to 1% of trading capital per trade. Some times I will have four or five pairs trading at the same time, so I allow 2% maximum risk to my trading capital total at any time. If I want to put more trades on, I either have to close one, or wait until one of the existing trades go into profit before putting another on.
The other factor in risk to trading capital is your stop loss value. We’ve had a lot of discussion about stop loss settings, but it’s important that you have a very mechanical method of setting stop losses so your trading is consistent. The two rules to do battle with the twin headed monster here is to always trade with a stop loss and never ever move a stop loss against the direction of your trade for any reason. Let it stop out if you must, but exiting a bad trade early is even better. Even if you exit 1 pip before hitting your stop loss on a bad trade, you are building a wall of disciplined defense that will serve you well in the future. If you are running 4 lots and are able to exit a trade gone bad 5 pips before it hits your stop loss, you have just made an extra 20 pips on that trade. That’s good defense and good trading. It doesn’t matter after the fact if price goes up or down. About half the time it will do one and about half the time it will do the other. But good trading is always good, no mater the price movement after the fact.
[B]The bottom line is, you must learn to trade without ever moving your stops against the direction of your trade for any reason. You must implement this rule if you are going to be successful in this business.[/B] Of course, once the trade is in profit, you can add some percent of your increasing profit to your stops to keep riding the trend, but only as your profit is increasing. If your profit is decreasing, that is the trade is approaching your stops, you are NEVER allowed to increase your stop width to stay in the trade. This is a primary line of defense and you must have the discipline to hold this line no matter what.
In the beginning you will be stopped out of some really good trades early and that will hurt. This is the pain we must all go through to be successful in this business. This happens to me even now after decades of trading. You will learn over time how to adjust your stops to minimize risk to your capital and maximize your profit potential. For now, just implement the rule that you will never ever move a stop against the direction of your trade this battle will already be won.
When you are winning greed dominates, and when you are losing fear dominates. Greed will cause you to take more risk than the you ever intended to for the trade. Fear will cause you to stay in trades you should get out of, fearing taking a loss, and it will cause you to take profits early when you should let them run because of fear of losing them back. To win the battle against this two headed monster, you must make all the decisions in advance before you are in the trade and you must be honest with yourself. You must review your trades after they are closed and look for any hint that fear or greed affected your decisions. In case one or the other did affect your decision, you must design rules that will prevent that from ever happening again. That’s pretty easy to do and I or someone here will help if you need it. The never ending battle will be to have the discipline to follow the rules you set. You must be very demanding of yourself in this regard and accept nothing less than 100% compliance with your own rules. It won’t start out that way, but having a written plan helps and it gets easier over time.
Happy Trading
nice speech Graviton, that is precisely my problem and so far i didnt manage to get out of my trading both fear and greed…
hope that in time i`ll get better and my trading will become more mechanical.
Nice post Graviton. For me, hitting stops seems to be the bigest emotional kicker in trading, especially when the price then reverses again and goes into profit. Thanks to this thread, I can now start evaluating if it is happening more than it should, and if so start adjusting my stops within my trading plan; I can make stop setting scientific rather than guess work.
Bradu, if you can win this battle, you can call yourself a “Trader”. There is nothing else beyond this two headed monster of fear and greed that can stand in your way. Don’t take it lightly though, it is a formidable foe. This is the most difficult thing you will ever have to do in your trading career by far. The key to winning is picking the battlefield. One where you can write the rules to defeat it when you are calm and comfortable and have nothing at risk. If you are struggling with this, after you try to write rules in your trading plan to remove it from your trading, let me know and I’ll help any way I can. I can also get other senior traders to offer suggestions if I run out of ideas. This beast will ruin your trading career if you do not kill it it forever. It’s the most important priority of your trading education right now and nothing else even comes close.
Cord, of course if the price always kept going down on a long trade after you hit your stop, you wouldn’t feel bad about it at all. The problem is when it keeps going down, you don’t feel very good, and if it reverses right back up after hitting the stop, you feel awful. You really do have to use a rule based approach to take the feelings out of your trading. Only then can you build confidence that the math will work over the long haul. The problem is many people never get to the point of having confidence in themselves or the math of their system because they have to keep fighting this beast of fear and greed over and over and losing.
I suspect it’s not the math of your stops that causes your largest losses. It’s probably the two headed beast. Most people keep working on better entries and stops long after what they already have is working plenty well enough. They have a very hard time accepting that the problem with their trading isn’t their method, but their own emotions. So they are really working on the wrong thing and can never fix the root cause of the problem. That’s usually the case with most people. But if it’s not the problem for you, then you are in the very lucky minority. I wasn’t so lucky. For the longest time I was working on all the wrong things, so I couldn’t really fix what was truly the problem with my trading. But I got over it in time and I’m convinced anyone can with a bit of honest reflection and some work.
To be honest, I’ve never really tried to refine my stops before. I’ve always just used a set stop, say of 15 pips, and left it at that. I didn’t take volatility into consideration. If it got hit it got hit, but it did still hurt.
Where emotions seem to ruin my trading is in forcing trades. That adrenaline rush still exists when I enter the market, and I seem to crave that. Some days I can resist, and enter only when I have good solid indications form my system to enter. These days are normally my winning days. I need to make every day like this, but i think a lot of this comes with experience?
[B][U]Rule # 1 [/U][/B]-
Keep my money in my pocket where it belongs until I can consistantly kick a demo accounts ass.
[B][U]Rule # 2[/U][/B] -
Study… Test… Demo… Repeat…
Study… Test… Demo… Repeat…
Study… Test… Demo… Repeat…
Study… Test… Demo… Repeat…
Etc…
[B][U]Rule # 3[/U][/B] -
Stick to the plan, and keep good stats! (Review performance monthly)
Trades taken per month
Trades taken according to plan
Win/loss %
Average size of winner
Average size of loser
Average Risk/Reward ratio
[B][U]Rule # 4[/U][/B] -
Perform a weekend multi-time frame pair analysis on as many pairs as necessary. [B]
Goal:[/B] Select a set of “Top 3” pairs to concentrate on for the following week to avoid information overload. Pairs are picked based 100% on technical analysis. Ideal pairs are currently demonstrating efficient long term trends on both the monthly and weekly time frame charts. Price action is not approaching any obvious resisance zones on the monthly or weekly charts.
[B][U]Rule # 5[/U][/B] -
Include some fundamental analysis for each of my “Top 3” pairs as part of my weekend review. Make sure the source of fundamental analysis is at least reasonably credible.
[B]Currently on Demo:[/B]
- Enter Tymen cbl method on pullback to long term trend. (30m or higher)
- Set stop behind previous swing high/swing low on home time frame. Trail stop manually to the best of my abilities.
- Immediately close postion when 5m and 15m timeframe clearly turn against the trade.
- Refine weekly to incorporate sucessful testing
[B]Currently testing:[/B]
-
Scaling into larger positions as per Graviton method
Test: Fixed increments
Test: Variable increments based on time of day and expected volatility
Test: Variable increments based on volatility indicator (ATR? last bar measure?) -
CBL as trailing stop
Test: Draw Tymen CBL as soon as opposite BB is contacted. Re-draw at every bar close in home chart and use this as a trailing stop. -
Entering trend late
Test: Enter on valid CBL in the direction I want. Make use of timeframes <30m if necessary. Make use of Fibs? Mid-BB bounce? -
Quantify entries
[B]To-Do:[/B] Not every Tymen CBL entry is created equal. Try to understand the multi-time frame relationship between bubbles, sausages and squeezes.
Yes, if you’ve not adjusted your stops for volatility before, then there’s some improvement for you there.
I believe everyone feels the compulsion to trade. It can be very addictive. You are right, one good goal is to take only the best trades. You can rank your trade possibilities say on a 1 to 10 scale. Develop some objective criteria for that ranking and see where the breakpoint is for winning and losing trades.
You can evaluate your trades according to the rank going in as to resulting W/L ratio and R/R ratio, average loss, average win, etc. A good stat to look at that few traders monitor is average maximum drawdown per trade, that is, how far negative do trades go on average that do not hit SL.
You can do as many stats as as people who follow a sports team. This gives you something constructive to do while looking for good trades and letting trades run. The need to just do something is great and the temptation to overtrade is overwhelming. Overtrading is really one of the only two ways to mess this up. Do pair evaluations of pairs you never trade, rewrite your trade plan. It’s best for me to try to stay very busy with something constructive while trading.
I’m big on goal setting. Actually, that’s the main way I prevent myself from overtrading. I set goals as to how many pips I want to make on average in a day, in a week, and in a month. If I make my goal, I’ll look for something else constructive to do, or at least tighten way up on my criteria.
I also set limits like a max number of trades per day, a max number allowed of losing trades per day, a max number of lost pips per day irrespective of the wins. I find setting these goals and limits and incorporating them as hard rules in my trade plan tells me when to quit and prevents overtrading.
Try some of these tricks and see if any work for you. If not, I’ve made every mistake possible at least 5 times, so I can make some other suggestions. If I run out of ideas, I can get other traders to pitch in too. Every time someone on the thread points something like this out, it helps everyone else, including me. So let me know if any of this works for you, and if so, what worked. If not we’ll pull out other devices to fix this.
Good plan Free, let us know how it works for you, OK?
Graviton, would you create a special topic for the relationship in the movement between the pairs please? Like one pair is moving there will be no movement for other one and so on
In other words how the pairs behave one to other ?
Yes, I’ll prepare something on this in the future.
Mondays are usually filled with choppy price action and whipsaws due to lots of factors. Many professional traders don’t even trade Mondays. The way I handle this is trade higher TF’s with half lots and twice the SL. Today (Monday) I’m trading the H4, 1/2 lots and 45 pip stops to keep my risk the same. I have to double all my pip based profit goals and loss limits for this. The good news is, trades move much slower and you have plenty of time to make decisions. Putting on lots, moving stops and taking profits are much easier.
You’ll see more of this in summer. Some times the whole week will be choppy on the lower TF’s. A good rule is, get whipsawed out of a trade, move up a TF. Don’t stay in lower TF’s and get repeatedly whipsawed with choppy price action. If you move up in TF and find no trades, that’s OK. Better no trades than losing stops all day.
Postscript: Moving up a time frame is also an excellent cure for overtrading. But, getting stopped out lots and overtrading are closely related I suppose.