OK I can’t bite my tongue any longer. This “everything is free so why pay” is a poor mans attitude. My attitude is if I can pay for something to get what I want sooner, I’ll pay. I spent years putting together my trading method, most of which I can explain in 1 hour. Time is money. Having said that. 99% of FX material for sale is complete crap, so do your research.
[QUOTE=“petefader;527187”]OK I can’t bite my tongue any longer. This “everything is free so why pay” is a poor mans attitude. My attitude is if I can pay for something to get what I want sooner, I’ll pay. I spent years putting together my trading method, most of which I can explain in 1 hour. Time is money. Having said that. 99% of FX material for sale is complete crap, so do your research.[/QUOTE]
Obviously the attitude of someone who charges for teaching…
You have a fee based trading room correct?
People who build wealth do so by not throwing their money away… Paying for something you can get for free is throwing your money away.
The process of gathering the information is just as important in the learning process as actually reading the information… This is the stage where you decide what kind of trader you will be… What style you will use… Being hand fed the “information concentrate” you may get from a fee based guru does not give you this opportunity.
You also have no idea if what the guru is teaching you is valid… How could you as you are limiting your information to one source… When finding it independently you will be coming across many different opinions and pieces of information given with different perspectives… You get to decide for yourself which ones make sense…
It has nothing to do with me teaching, this is just my general attitude, so you are incorrect.
Have you ever heard the saying “time is money”? I’m sure you have. That’s because a lot of people think that. I’ve taken piano lessons, Karate lessons etc… Could I have learned that on my own…sure, would take much longer and I would have to take what i can get rather than seek out the teacher that I trust.
You’re entitled to your opinion of course, I really don’t want to debate further. I said it, poor mans mentality with too much time on his hands, I’m done.
[QUOTE=“petefader;527208”]
It has nothing to do with me teaching, this is just my general attitude, so you are incorrect.
[/QUOTE]
Of course it does… You are not going to have the opinion that one can and should find everything for free WHILE you run a fee based trading room… That would make zero sense. Therefore… Of course you think people should pay for training and that its a “poor man’s attitude” that you can get everything for free online… That is called “bias”… You would be discouraging paying customers if you held a differing opinion… Cutting into your revenue.
Your wrong, and I don’t care what you think.
Just when I thought you might be getting on my good side. SMH.
[QUOTE=“petefader;527216”]
Your wrong, and I don’t care what you think.
Just when I thought you might be getting on my good side. You’re really annoying actually.[/QUOTE]
I am not wrong actually… You can’t make a logical argument reconciling you running a fee based trading room WHILE holding the opinion everyone can and should find all their information for free.
Would be similar to an animal rights vegan owning a cattle slaughterhouse.
I don’t think it’s wrong, therefore charging is inline with my beliefs, get it? Please, I’m done.
[QUOTE=“petefader;527219”]
I don’t think it’s wrong, therefore charging is inline with my beliefs, get it? Please, I’m done.[/QUOTE]
Yes … Charging is “inline with your beliefs”… You just said what I already said a few posts ago… It makes sense that you think this way when you run a fee based trading room… That’s called “bias”.
I paid for trading rooms before I started one. Was that because of bias that one day I would have a trade room? Come on dude. I said you can have your opinion, that’s fine. But you want to say I’m full of it??
[QUOTE=“petefader;527225”]
I paid for trading rooms before I started one. Was that because of bias that one day I would have a trade room? Come on dude. I said you can have your opinion, that’s fine. But you want to say I’m full of it?? Bite me.[/QUOTE]
So you have paid for training in the past… And you charge for training now… Of course you are going to fling insults at someone who tells your potential clients (and your former self) that they should and can find everything for free online. That’s a logical reaction on your part.
Maybe never pay for advice but advice freely given is not always that great either. Kind of like saying any education is not worth paying for…hmm anyone here go to college? The question is not to pay or not but how to distinguish between the good and the bad.:33:
Even am of the same opinion that for one it is not needed to spend money for obtaining the education as there are so many forex trading related websites which can give good knowledge for the traders.
There’s no evidence that 2ndskies is a successful trader at all. Nor Petefader. If you are going to pay for something you have to make sure that your teacher can actually make money. I don’t agree with ILovePizza because I think that its worth paying for information if it saves you time and creates money (this is called investing in itself) but you should not pay for something entirely unproven.
[QUOTE=“JackMarkets;527316”]
I think that its worth paying for information if it saves you time and creates money (this is called investing in itself) but you should not pay for something entirely unproven.[/QUOTE]
The question is… What would you envision a “pay for training” course to include that the babypips school doesn’t? The babypips school pdf is 500+ pages… If you can stomach the horrible humor, it’s going to cover everything that a course will that you spend a couple hundred bucks on. Combine the generic training that the top 3 US forex brokers provide for free (basic online training… Mine has free webinars… Free training articles… Etc), investopedia.com, forextradermagazine.com, babypips school, and few other quality sites and you are going to find the same material that the people teaching their courses for a fee skimmed off of to get their material.
Babypips is nothing more than a wikipedia with a humorous twist - it looks very similar to technical trading books from the 1990s. Its directionless and is nothing but an encyclopedia of trading terms and theories without any direction (hence pretty useless in my opinion apart from learning trading terms). From a tutor you would expect directed non generic training and feedback like from a piano teacher/tennis coach. That would probably require one to one teaching/small group tutorial teaching which is a lot more expensive than a course, but also a lot more effective if the teacher is competent.
(Or you can believe that you can make $1000s selling when there are lower highs on a chart and spend all day on a golf course :5:)
[QUOTE=“JackMarkets;527340”] From a tutor you would expect directed non generic training and feedback like from a piano teacher/tennis coach. That would probably require one to one teaching/small group tutorial teaching which is a lot more expensive than a course, but also a lot more effective if the teacher is competent.
[/QUOTE]
But what would you think they are going to be telling you on a one to one setting…?
Its a matter of correcting bad techniques and teaching correct ones. For instance, the classic ICT follower is someone who has 99 terrible trading techniques that they think are brilliant. It would be a matter of dismantling his terrible beliefs and replacing them with good ones, rewarding good trading with encouragement and discouraging a return to old and unprofitable ways. If it was a new student then it would be easier for the teacher, and just teaching correct ways of thinking.
You can’t get that from babypips or investopedia.
I think he already answered you… “directed non generic training and feedback.”
[QUOTE=“JackMarkets;527346”]Its a matter of correcting bad techniques and teaching correct ones. For instance, the classic ICT follower is someone who has 99 terrible trading techniques that they think are brilliant. It would be a matter of dismantling his terrible beliefs and replacing them with good ones, rewarding good trading with encouragement and discouraging a return to old and unprofitable ways. If it was a new student then it would be easier for the teacher, and just teaching correct ways of thinking.
You can’t get that from babypips or investopedia.[/QUOTE]
Using ICT as an example… He DID do one on one training sessions… So would that be worth paying for? A ton of people would have paid a lot of money… And they would not be any closer to being successful then if they just read the free material that I could provide links for.
One on one training sessions would entail someone verbally summarizing what you can find online… For free. If a person does not have the self awareness to know when they are deviating from what they have retained from the material, then having someone verbally tell them the exact same things won’t make a difference in their long term viability.
There are two stages to becoming a successful trader…
1st you learn the key concepts, fundamentals behind the market, money management, technical principles… Etc. all of these are the same regardless if you read them or have someone tell them to you verbally… There is no mystic knowledge passed down from guru to guru.
2nd you take these and trade… You aren’t learning much new “information” during this phase but rather gaining experience and honing the intangible qualities… Discretion, discipline, patience, trading personality… Etc.
The first phase you can learn everything you can online for free… Won’t be any faster with a paid instructor… Most people can read faster then they can listen.
The second phase can’t be taught… It’s a by product of putting in the time. There is no NEED for one on one sessions… If they are free then AWESOME. If they are fee based then obviously it’s your money… But it’s not necessary or worth it by any means.
As far as needling someone to give you feedback… Your account balance does that for you… You don’t need to be paying someone $100 an hour to pat you on your back when you make a good trade when your profit does the same thing… And you don’t need a tongue lashing when making a bad trade and losing money will make you feel just as bad.
Did ICT do one on one training sessions? LOL. How much did he charge? Sign me up straight away!
Of course the reason why they were not paying for was that he was a failure and not a real trader - obviously not worth paying for. I am talking about a trader who is successful (with a proven account) who is willing to teach.
One point Ilovepizza - I notice that you are assuming what is being said in our theoretical one to one session (ie: verbally summarising what you can find online for free) whereas this is not necessarily the case - they could be saying something very different.
Actually a second one - I did like your challenge of ‘finding something online that is taught in a paid course that cannot be found for free online’ because it was impossible to win - because if something can be found online and displayed on the forum, therefore it can also be found online for free (because the only source that someone can easily get to is online, and they would have to be drawing from an online free source).
Anyway, you are assuming what a teacher teaches in his sessions. What if a teacher taught something radically different from perceived notions of trading? As you know ‘price action’ is the big thing these days so much so that indicator trading techniques are looked down upon - what if a teacher taught an indicator based technique or other unfashionable technique that was no longer emphasised and it was a good technique? Although they could be found online, they are swamped by mastergunner type techniques and constantly rubbished on forums so a reader would not think to use them.
I think the first stage can be taught faster with a teacher than can be taught alone - teaching, asking questions usually locks in information faster than just reading. I found tutorial sessions at university helpful, even though the material was available for free through lectures, lecture notes and the bookstore. Plus someone just reading can miss vital parts of the key concepts or misunderstand them. I know someone who traded using fibonacchi lines upside down for months. Lots of other examples where teaching would quickly sort through mistakes and make sure that all the information was covered with the right emphasis.
The second stage, as you put it: here the feedback would be important to clear up misunderstandings, to review new situations (which always arise), to perfect new ‘systems.’ I also think that there are more stages in learning but I won’t go into that.
Lets say you are trading with a $100 000 deposit, making $5000 per month once you have learned your stuff. If you are self taught then it might take you 12 months. If teaching can shave 3 months off that time, it ‘saves’ you $15000. It also cuts costly mistakes which might save you even more. Lets say you pay $2500 in teaching fees you are making an ROI of 500% on your teaching investment which is really good. A great investment I am sure you agree.
Of course, if you trained with ICT it would INCREASE your training time by several months so you would be losing money so it is not worth it. So you need a good teacher, not an unproven one.