Please please help me (All please do read and comment)

Beginner Questions
21

[QUOTE=“kashif314;496434”]
Hmmmm. Bro your status says “Superior Master Contributor and Member” so when you say that trading isn’t for me then there must be some truth in it as you are one of the experts out there. I have been to many forums but nobody said this to me ever that I cant be a trader after viewing my posts. So bro I want to know what made you say that trading is not for me? I double checked my posts to see if I hinted any indication but I failed to notice. I am a very patient and calm character and now a days I am eating, drinking, sleeping Forex only. I daily spend 9 to 10 hours to learn Forex basics. So please please I am desperately waiting for your reply to know that how you assessed that I don’t have the aptitude or personality to be successful in trading? Honestly thats a shocking and very discouraging comment for me. So i would love to hear from you. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]

The primary characteristics you will find in common amongst nearly every trader who is making extensive profits is an ability to learn independently and efficiently. A pretty strong indication that you are not exercising “learning independently” can be seen by the type of questions in your posts… Basically you are asking “how do I trade”… People with aptitude towards this would have already spent MANY hours on google reading through the vast number of resources that are already there for you for free, just a google search away… Instead you ask people to do that for you.

Knowing how to find answers on your own is a skill and will need to be developed as this “career” choice requires a constant effort of researching and wading through vast amounts of information even after you already are profitable and know your stuff backwards and forwards. Learning efficiently would involve doing your own extensive research… Then coming back to a forum and asking FOCUSED and SPECIFIC questions… More then likely you would even be able to find answers to these on your own though as well.

You’ve mentioned one of the primary reasons you want to trade was “to trade from the comfort of my own home”. Personalities that succeed in this business don’t view things in terms of comfort… They view things as challenges to conquer…they are the type of people who hike Mt Everest and when people ask why they did it they say “because it is there.”

Expressing that you are wanting something comfy, though nothing wrong with it, is an indication of a demotivated personality. A long those same lines you’ve asked about signal services and EAs… This indicates you would have someone else do the work for you… Not what the personality would be interested in who is typically successful in this business.

Can you persevere at this for two years… Continuing to spend many hours a day before even making any meaningful profit?

22

Hello Kashif,

I will give you my story. Four years ago I was working a salesman at a financial firm. Everyday, I envied the fund managers and thought to myself " Would I ever make it there?" The answer is yes>
The first step I took is to pump my savings account and enrolled for a basics course at Online Trading academy
Since I did not have much time, I took about 9 months to complete the whole thing and develop my first system.( which according to other traders, was a funny trading joke). Still was able to gain like 5% each month, which was alright. The second step was enrolling onto a Price Action course at 2nd Skies Forex. Six month later,with all confidence and a simple system, I labelled myself a Pro and daily it becomes a revelation. I can now live off trading as a full time gig.
Here in the Forums, I would recommend:

Taking a basics course at School of Pipsology | Learn Forex Trading

Also do check out http://forums.babypips.com/newbie-island/45414-understanding-price-action-chris-capre-133.html where there are many former students.

Bottom line whether you believe you can or cannot, either way you are right. There is nothing as aptitude to be a trader, only the will and determination. Take some time learn and be patient with yourself.

Dany

23

[QUOTE=“danyrexy;497347”]

Bottom line whether you believe you can or cannot, either way you are right. There is nothing as aptitude to be a trader, only the will and determination. Take some time learn and be patient with yourself.

Dany[/QUOTE]

Lol … You are wrong. Sorry if that puts a damper on some people’s dreams but a lot of people need to hear it.

Yes, will and determination is a must… And so is aptitude. Do you think will and determination will make you an Olympic gold medalist in sprinting…? Or are there physical traits that one must possess to have a shot at beating others who do have all the physical traits AND as much will and determination as you.

24

I disagree Pizza, if you don’t have the will then no matter how physical you are, it doesn’t matter. This is like a horse race. Only those that want to win will do it. Or better still i suppose you watch EPL,( the smallest defender- rafael is one of the best) Didn’t say this earlier but in college I was a Psych major and this is part of what I learn’t…
Cheers anyway

25

Hello Kashif,

Concentrate more about trading psychology. Because that is one important thing when it comes to real trading.

Also don’t change trading methods and styles quickly. Choose the best and stick with it.

I have to say the same like others. That is learn price action trading. Don’t try to spend dollars blindly on paid courses until you have a good idea about those.

Always get to know about the person behind. In here I would like to suggest Price Action trading with Chris Capre thread to get some advanced knowledge about price action trading. I hope other members here also agree with me.

Regards,
Alan

26

Well there are plenty of paid courses and free courses out there that I WOULD NOT recommend, but I don’t think the tutors would like me mentioning it. Unfortunately learning trading is a minefield because everyone considers themselves an expert! Sorry, I know that this is probably not the right answer you are looking for!

27

[QUOTE=“danyrexy;497354”]

I disagree Pizza, if you don’t have the will then no matter how physical you are, it doesn’t matter. This is like a horse race. Only those that want to win will do it. Or better still i suppose you watch EPL,( the smallest defender- rafael is one of the best) Didn’t say this earlier but in college I was a Psych major and this is part of what I learn’t…
Cheers anyway[/QUOTE]

I’m not disagreeing on the fact that “will” is necessary… Aptitude DOES exist though and IS necessary. :slight_smile:

28

Hello ILPM,

In the beginning, I think ‘will and determination’ is far more important than ‘Aptitude’. Why?

Although ‘aptitude’ is highly useful, it can be learned and built, thus is not necessary at the outset. The mind has neuro-plasticity to it and can totally learn new skills, and build the ‘aptitude’ they need. Many people who have come to me with little ‘aptitude’ have built the skills necessary because they had the ‘will and determination’. Aptitude means nothing without determination or will. In fact most quit because they don’t have or build the ‘will or determination’.

Same with Navy Seals BUDS training. Almost everyone who tried their BUDS training course more than had enough ‘aptitude’ as many were world class athletes. But they did not have the ‘will or determination’, and failed. Read any major book on Navy Seals Training (I recommend [B]Lars Draeger - Navy Seals Training Guide: Mental Toughness[/B]), and they will all list the most important thing to complete their training is ‘mental toughness’, not ‘aptitude’ which becomes a far second or third place. Also notice the name of his book is not 'Navy Seals Training Guide: Aptitude.

Other great examples of people with little ‘aptitude’ at the beginning would be Michael Jordan (failed to get on the Varsity team his first try), or Albert Einstein (didn’t even talk till age 4). MJ when he entered the league was horrible at defense. What did he do? Build his defensive skills to become one of the best defensive players. I could go on and on, but read any book about Michael Jordan ([B]Legends of Sport - Michael Jordan[/B], or [B]How to Be Like Mike[/B], or '[B]I Cannot Accept Not Trying[/B]), and you will realize it was his mental toughness, his determination, his will to succeed that propelled him, not his ‘aptitude’ as he was far smaller than most in the beginning - yet outworked others in every way. Even he himself will say this over and over again.

FYI - I’m not just saying this from some books, but personal experience working with thousands of people since 2004. I’ve trained plenty of people with little ‘aptitude’ in the beginning, who became solid traders helping them build the right trading mindset and skills. Shoot one of them couldn’t even use a computer, and didn’t have an email acct prior to coming to me. He had ADHD and no computer skills, let alone working with numbers, and now trades quite consistently.

Bottom line is ‘aptitude’ is not the crux which someone needs from the outset, far from it as it can be built. If I had to choose any one skill or trait a trader would have at the outset, it would be ‘mental toughness’, so they could fight through their failures, their emotions, doubts, etc. and remain focused on the task to build the right skill set.

FYI - I’m not saying ‘aptitude’ is not important as people with varying levels of ‘aptitude’ can be successful at trading. Merely that if someone does not have it in the beginning, then it can be built. In fact most skills can be built to become a successful trader, but without will and determination, it will be very difficult. However even that can be built. Thus, they do not need it (aptitude) at the outset, but having ‘will and determination’, or what I call ‘mental toughness’ will be far more helpful in the beginning then ‘aptitude’ IMO.

Food for thought.

Kind Regards,
Chris Capre

29

Would you also agree that aptitude and will and determination can go hand in hand?

I will use your example with the person with an ADHD who come to you for training (in which by the way, I appluad you for doing that and helping other people) without any computer skills, working with numbers, etc. I am sure deep down in himself and his mind he knows that he had talents or skills and mental ability to do it, maybe he had the competency to do what he thinks he can do and achieved. So, perhaps he already did a little independent work for himself by reading so many books in regards to trading, maybe he attended other courses to gain some knowledge, maybe his family/friends showed him how to trade but then he failed…So, he will then seek out for help to give him a little push while he is in a down situation to get him going. The “will and determination” will then come into play so it will give him the boost that he needs to believe to himself that he can do it…you will feel the need of “will and determination” when you are in tough situation or you are feeling the difficulties because of the failure after failure that you had experience… you don’t know if you need a “will and determination” until you experience failure and self doubt…

Everyone can aspired or dreamed of becoming a successful and profitable trader… but without talents, ability to learn and decide independently with a will and determination in hand , there a great chance to be a failure and quit…that is why we only seen a small percentage of a successful traders…just in IMO.

30

Hello PNR,

I do not think ‘aptitude’ and ‘will/determination’ go hand in hand and find they are separate. For example a person could be an engineer, or trained in financial modeling, i.e. similar fields and thus have a greater ‘aptitude’ towards trading from the beginning of their journey, but not have the ‘will and determination’.

In regards to my student (who became a good friend) that had ADHD, he actually felt he couldn’t trade at all, and was very doubtful about his ‘abilities’ to trade. But he was curious and wanted to give it a go. He is actually someone who has a lot of fear and doubt about himself, and had read very little about trading prior to coming to me. He just had a few friends doing it, so wanted to check it out.

Nobody showed him how to trade prior to coming to me. So none of what you mention or speculate is related to him.

But I think ‘talent’ is way over-rated, and even most cognitive scientists who specialize in human learning and memory agree with this. I specialized in ‘Human Learning and Memory’ in my Neuroscience program at school, and they all talk about the 10k hour rule, ‘deliberate practice’, but nothing of talent.

Anders Erickson (mentioned in ‘Outliers’ by Malcolm McDowel, and creator of the 10k hr rule) also dismisses talent as being the separator to success and failure. He talks about the above I mentioned as being far superior.

And as stated earlier, ‘talents’ can be built, developed and learned, and are in most cases not some god given gift, or something we are born with. They are more a product of effort, practice, training and will/determination then some innate gifts.

Thus, I do not agree ‘aptitude’ and ‘will/determination’ go hand in hand IMO.

Food for thought.

Kind Regards,
Chris Capre

31

So are you saying this as a general rule or case by case basis? I am sure you are aware that people are different and unique. Some already have talents with them and in them. They just need to hone and developed their skills that they have… However, some do not and that may apply the “talents can be built and developed and learned”…your thoughts?

32

Hello PNR,

As a whole, I think ‘talent’ is way over-rated. Plenty of people with talent, but no results.

If I had to choose any quality I’d want in a trader from the beginning, ‘mental toughness’ would be my number one choice for them to have prior to coming to trading, not ‘talent’ or ‘aptitude’.

Yes, people are completely different with talents already present when they come to trading, but their skills may not be applicable or highly useful for trading, while some may. Regardless, even if they have talents specific to trading when they come to it, I think it does not matter if they have them, if they do not have a certain will and determination, those talents will never come to fruition, so they become mute.

I feel it is far better to build the right mindset and develop the right skills specific to trading, then ‘hone their skills’ they already have as a way to augment their trading, not the other way around.

Case in point, I’m working with a highly skilled engineer who has a lot of skills useful to trading (analytical skills, good with numbers, can program/test, etc.), yet his mindset is not there yet, and actually interferes with his trading. Thus all the skills will not = success if the mindset isn’t there.

Thus I am not trying to simply ‘hone or develop his skills he already has’ but working to build his mindset. Only then will his skills and talents be of use.

Hopefully this clarifies it.

Kind Regards,
Chris Capre

33

Yes, I agree about having a “mental toughness” in trading. I am trying to combine, developed and hone my psychological side in trading as well (with Technical and fundamental of course)…

I am quoting your specific statement/response below…

If I understand this correctly, you might somewhat agree with me that talent and will and determination can go hand in hand (in which what I am trying to point out earlier) in a case by case basis. There is a[B] possibility [/B]that the talent that was already in them (in terms of trading) can come to fruition when they practice and apply a certain will and determination…

34

Well technically anything can go together in case by case basis. But as a whole, they (talent, will/determination) are not married, nor do they have to go together to exist. They can co-exist, but anything can for that point.

So I would not say they go hand in hand and are more separate then posited here.

Hopefully that clarifies it.

Kind Regards,
Chris Capre

35

That’s all I needed to know that it is possible in case by case basis…but in general or majority it will be a whole different approach. Thanks.

36

[QUOTE=“2ndSkiesForex;497440”]

Hello ILPM,

In the beginning, I think ‘will and determination’ is far more important than ‘Aptitude’. Why?

Although ‘aptitude’ is highly useful, it can be learned and built, thus is not necessary at the outset. The mind has neuro-plasticity to it and can totally learn new skills, and build the ‘aptitude’ they need. Many people who have come to me with little ‘aptitude’ have built the skills necessary because they had the ‘will and determination’. Aptitude means nothing without determination or will. In fact most quit because they don’t have or build the ‘will or determination’.

Same with Navy Seals BUDS training. Almost everyone who tried their BUDS training course more than had enough ‘aptitude’ as many were world class athletes. But they did not have the ‘will or determination’, and failed. Read any major book on Navy Seals Training (I recommend Lars Draeger - Navy Seals Training Guide: Mental Toughness), and they will all list the most important thing to complete their training is ‘mental toughness’, not ‘aptitude’ which becomes a far second or third place. Also notice the name of his book is not 'Navy Seals Training Guide: Aptitude.

Other great examples of people with little ‘aptitude’ at the beginning would be Michael Jordan (failed to get on the Varsity team his first try), or Albert Einstein (didn’t even talk till age 4). MJ when he entered the league was horrible at defense. What did he do? Build his defensive skills to become one of the best defensive players. I could go on and on, but read any book about Michael Jordan (Legends of Sport - Michael Jordan, or How to Be Like Mike, or 'I Cannot Accept Not Trying), and you will realize it was his mental toughness, his determination, his will to succeed that propelled him, not his ‘aptitude’ as he was far smaller than most in the beginning - yet outworked others in every way. Even he himself will say this over and over again.

FYI - I’m not just saying this from some books, but personal experience working with thousands of people since 2004. I’ve trained plenty of people with little ‘aptitude’ in the beginning, who became solid traders helping them build the right trading mindset and skills. Shoot one of them couldn’t even use a computer, and didn’t have an email acct prior to coming to me. He had ADHD and no computer skills, let alone working with numbers, and now trades quite consistently.

Bottom line is ‘aptitude’ is not the crux which someone needs from the outset, far from it as it can be built. If I had to choose any one skill or trait a trader would have at the outset, it would be ‘mental toughness’, so they could fight through their failures, their emotions, doubts, etc. and remain focused on the task to build the right skill set.

FYI - I’m not saying ‘aptitude’ is not important as people with varying levels of ‘aptitude’ can be successful at trading. Merely that if someone does not have it in the beginning, then it can be built. In fact most skills can be built to become a successful trader, but without will and determination, it will be very difficult. However even that can be built. Thus, they do not need it (aptitude) at the outset, but having ‘will and determination’, or what I call ‘mental toughness’ will be far more helpful in the beginning then ‘aptitude’ IMO.

Food for thought.

Kind Regards,
Chris Capre[/QUOTE]

Well you and I disagree… It is very clear that there are many people who have zero potential to make a living trading in this industry, despite having all the motivation in the world (obviously someone who makes money by teaching classes that are filled with these people is not going to want to admit this as it would discourage enrollment)… I can provide you a long list of new babypipsters that created an account and expressed how motivated and determined they were… But it was obvious they had no aptitude… And guess what? Two weeks later they realized trading wasn’t for them and they never posted again. A perfect example is a babypips member Jessey126… Read through her posts and you’ll see what I am talking about.

Can someone who is not a prodigy learn to trade as a full time career…? Sure! Can someone who is below average level of intellect …? Mmmm no. Not unless they are given a rigid mechanical system that requires ZERO discretion (then you might as well script it into an automated program)… Yeh it’s not what our modern culture teaches our kids which is "you can be ANYTHING you want! Just try hard!“
That is bogus… A kid who stops growing at 4’ 8” will NEVER win a gold medal in the olympic high jump no matter how hard he tries… How useful would it be to that kid if everyone around him kept telling him he was going to win a gold medal and that he was off to a good start accomplishing that dream when it’s painfully obvious he is not or never will be able to do that?

37

Ouch, now that is going to leave a mark.

The Ever Zero Hedge VIPER

38

lol, so if I throw enough basketballs, I can be as good as Micheal Jordan, and if I studied hard enough I could be as smart as Einstein?

39

Well, its very useful to say that if you are selling high jump lessons for $250!

40

[QUOTE=“JackMarkets;497613”]

lol, so if I throw enough basketballs, I can be as good as Micheal Jordan, and if I studied hard enough I could be as smart as Einstein?[/QUOTE]

If you worked as hard as Michael Jordan as long as he had, then I would argue you would have the best fighting chance to be an NBA star like Michael Jordan.

There’s a great book out there, and for whatever reason the title is not coming to my recollection, but it talks about how natural talent simply doesn’t exist.

The author goes into great length about “deliberate practice” and that those we say have great natural talent simply have developed their talent through hard repetitious and deliberate practice.

Granted there is a variance in genes and body type, but not nearly to the point we give it credit for. People tend to talk themselves out of doing great things simply because they don’t believe they have the natural talent to do so.