Posts pasted in

[anon25005637]

Possibly, but I really hope not. That would not resolve anything and only create more discontent.

This must be right.

I am convinced that the owners care about the quality of their forum

What makes you think so?

All the appearances to the contrary are surely both very persistent and frankly overwhelming?

[anon88459104]

I am convinced that the owners care about the quality of their forum and not just the volumes. To think otherwise would be out of context

To be honest Manxx, thinking that is illogical. Volume drives traffic, traffic drives clicks, clicks drive potential leads, leads drive revenue? It’s a underlying business model, just like trading. The owners don’t necessarily have to take the members best interest in mind, just like trading unethical events with the potential to turn a profit?

[anon46773462]

What makes you think so?

A few straws and maybe a drizzle of eternal optimism? (others may call it näivity! )

Prior to its launch, the owners were so keen to advertise their new site and praised its benefits that we would experience with it when it eventually came.

They set up feedback threads so’s we could post our comments on it. These comments were read and responded to.

In some areas the moderating has been swift and effective.

There has clearly been a moderating response to some language issues - even if not everyone agreed with how that was implemented!

There has been active monitoring of threads and rationalising the postings by transferring posts/threads to more suitable locations

These would not be evident if there was no interest in how the forum develops and how the threads are maintained. Evidently there has been some reactive and proactive action by the moderator team which has resulted in clearing up problems. In these instances, the complaint is now only how long it took to respond.

Personally, I think we are very lucky to have such a site available and I still feel, on balance, in total, it is a high quality product with a high quality customer base. It is good to keep in perspective that these irritating and annoying copy/paste type posts are only a small proportion of the total product here. Again, personally, I feel the far bigger threat is from the highly dangerous scamming and thinly disguised sales type posts that can lead to people losing serious money - but I think the comunity itself is also doing a fine job of highlighting these and flagging them.

But I am an eternal optimist and prefer to always hope for the best and be disappointed rather than focus on the worse and miss out on the good! So I do accept that I may well be totally off the map here…

[anon46773462]

[quote=“RISKonFX, post:24, topic:112641”]
To be honest Manxx, thinking that is illogical. Volume drives traffic, traffic drives clicks, clicks drive potential leads, leads drive revenue? It’s a underlying business model, just like trading. [/quote]
I understand and agree with what you are saying, but it is not illogical to think that the owners care about the quality of their forum. Afterall, it is the quality and the reputation that helps attract the customers that then produce the volume that…etc,etc. as you said…plus the customer stays longer, inputs more, and…attracts more customers. As you say, it a business model.

The owners don’t necessarily have to take the members best interest in mind, just like trading unethical events with the potential to turn a profit?

No, they don’t have to, but I think they see longer term benefits by doing so.

But, like profiting from unethical events, there are alternative ways of looking at things. For example, if your neighbour’s house is burgled it is ok to “profit” from that by reviewing your own security arrangements, but it is a more questionable approach to try and profit by finding out where his stolen property might be disposed of so that you could buy some of it cheap? But maybe that is a bit too off the wall!

[anon98339083]

Possibly, but I really hope not. That would not resolve anything and only create more discontent.

I imagine it has stayed unlocked (for now) because of the references it contains to “threads being locked”.

Undoubtedly the censorship exercised here against any and all members who dare to sound as if they’re saying anything with the potential to be interpreted as criticizing the management is generally swift and relentless.

It’s clear from reading this part of the forum that that’s been a very longstanding issue, too.

Some former members from here comment elsewhere that they eventually got fed up with their posts (commenting on the lack of moderator-response) being deleted, and left. And I can now see why. I’ve also had posts deleted, and Quickly tells me has has, also. Many of them. But the spam/rubbish about which we’ve commented habitually isn’t removed.

But people who make endless no-value posts, people who bump threads to make ridiculous, useless comments, people who steal content off the web and just paste it in - unless there’s a hugely concerted campaign of commenting about it, privately AND publicly, for weeks: it’s almost impossible to get those removed. You must see this, Manxx? It’s not exactly an “isolated incident”. It’s the norm.

They just booted out “profitbaby” the other day, after how many years of incessant (fully justified) complaints about him?

How many people had to complain about Estis/Esche and for how long?

If you report posts that are stolen from the web and pasted in, and provide the moderators with a link to where the stolen content was stolen from, and three weeks later six or seven people are still discussing publicly the apparent impossibility of getting them removed from the forum, something’s surely terribly wrong?

“Farcical” is the word Piperazine chose to describe this. I don’t disagree.

I always respect your opinions, Manxx, but I don’t really see how you get from there to “I am convinced that the owners care about the quality of their forum”.

That feels a real leap of faith, to me, I hope you don’t mind me saying!

[anon85101737]

Some former members from here comment elsewhere that they eventually got fed up with their posts (commenting on the lack of moderator-response) being deleted, and left. And I can now see why. I’ve also had posts deleted, and Quickly tells me has has, also. Many of them. But the spam/rubbish about which we’ve commented habitually isn’t removed.

But people who make endless no-value posts, people who bump threads to make ridiculous, useless comments, people who steal content off the web and just paste it in - unless there’s a hugely concerted campaign of commenting about it, privately AND publicly, for weeks: it’s almost impossible to get those removed.

You guys have been let off lightly, too.

When I complained that the pasted-in posts were being protected, Pipstradamus told me straight out that if I thought that, I wasn’t welcome here, and advised me to leave.

Just like people have said about this place, in other places.

It’s BLATANT.

It’s a superb example study of “How to create ill-will towards your business”. That skill he has perfected.

[anon85101737]

If you report posts that are stolen from the web and pasted in, and provide the moderators with a link to where the stolen content was stolen from, and three weeks later six or seven people are still discussing publicly the apparent impossibility of getting them removed from the forum, something’s surely terribly wrong?

I couldn’t agree more.

The fact that anyone ever has to discuss it publicly at all is proof that something’s terribly wrong.

For a whole group of people to have to do so for weeks, to get anyone to take any notice of them, is just ridiculous. It’s worse than just ridiculous, in fact: it’s offensive.

He wants me to go, and he’s said so.

I’m staying until he bans me (in which case I’ll quickly and prominently add my voice to those elsewhere) or until he damn well apologises to me for his behaviour. In public.

[anon46773462]

That feels a real leap of faith

Yes, that is about what it amounts to, I agree.

I am one of those that no longer posts here (much), but mainly for other reasons. But I do read regularly what appears here.

My “leap of faith” is more a cry for peace because I really do not want to see more people disappearing or dispatched from here. You people are the core of what this forum achieves and have so much to give to others. It is such a pity to see these rogue posters achieving some kind of victory by destroying the value in this forum and diverting your energies and focus away from the real purpose here.

But I have again said far too much here on this subject and will leave it at that. I just hope you will all keep a perspective view of the relative magnitude/importance/relevance of such things and at least allow the owners a reprieve to speak for themselves here and justify/explain things from their side of the fence.

[anon25005637]

at least allow the owners a reprieve to speak for themselves here and justify/explain things from their side of the fence.

It’s perhaps a bit late for that?

Too many people have done that, too many times?

All that ever gets is “We have our process and you have to allow it time to work”. We all think that’s rubbish.

Tacita sounds really angry (as others have, before her, over the same and similar issues) and she has every right to, too.

If they’re going to pursue policies which (intentionally or otherwise) protect trolls, spammers, content-thieves and idiots to the extent that they have to censor ordinary members who speak out about it, they’re going to destroy their own forum. And it’s time they faced up to that.

[anon98339083]

My “leap of faith” is more a cry for peace because I really do not want to see more people disappearing or dispatched from here.

Avoiding that is going to need the forum actually showing some respect towards its non-spamming, non-trollish, non-idiotic members.

Do you think there’s much chance of that?

I just hope you will all keep a perspective view of the relative magnitude/importance/relevance of such things and at least allow the owners a reprieve to speak for themselves here and justify/explain things from their side of the fence.

What I’ll “keep” is my copy of the full thread (just in case it gets deleted from here).

[Pipstradamus]

Meanwhile, all your members who comment on this have known for weeks, from their posts and from the sources from which they were stolen, that Estis and Esche are the same person.

Your logic is that because their posts referenced similar sources, they are the same person. And because they both copied and pasted, they are the same person.

I could say that you any any other member in this thread are the same person based on similarities in your forum activity, and account and IP profile. There could find more evidence you two are the same person over what we have for Estis and Esche and I could still be wrong. Translating those similarities into fact and acting on it by banning without engaging users (and giving them time to reply) would be jumping to conclusions, in both cases.

We have our process, which does evolve based from member feedback, and we explain it when asked to. Sometimes we’re at the mercy of the system we use, other times a change we need has to go up the chain to the developer, for discussion and action, which takes time. In the end, we get where we need to be. If that logic doesn’t align with your expectations, which it clearly doesn’t, you have to ask yourself if you get enough value from our site and Forums to stick around and deal with those realities. If you do, great, let’s get back to trading.

In my opinion they actively discourage it.

They ignore, censor, and suggest that people complaining should leave.

EVERY flagged post gets reviewed and acted on in some fashion. Our action might not be the result you’re looking for, but it gets attention internally. What you call censorship is cleanup, where posts are removed when discussions are derailed by feedback and comments about another user’s policy violations, even after the reporting user has been instructed multiple times to flag the post rather than discuss the issue right then and there.

How long before this thread, too, gets locked to censor the truth of what happens here?

You’ve made the point that I’ve stated previously. If we censor in the fashion you explain, the posts you’re referencing from 2 years ago would not exist. I stand by my statements that all critical feedback threads about our policy and site are publicly visible for anyone to read. You can disagree with our decisions and criticize as needed. But once it turns abusive or aggressive, posts will get deleted. We’re not doing anything special in that regard. And locking threads is especially useful for discussions that go in circles, with no end in sight. There’s no truth being withheld.

I’ve explained our process. I’ve explained why posts get removed even when they are not the flagged posts. We value the original discussion and want to preserve it.

They acknowledge a small minority of them

As I already mentioned, every FLAGGED post gets a response, from the system or a moderator. I’m not sure how you can quantify the posts you report and your experiences as representative of all flagged posts by all users. That’s impossible, and again, you’re free to voice your opinion, but that’s completely inaccurate.

Volume drives traffic, traffic drives clicks, clicks drive potential leads, leads drive revenue? It’s a underlying business model, just like trading. The owners don’t necessarily have to take the members best interest in mind, just like trading unethical events with the potential to turn a profit?

Your are a webmaster. You know how easy it would be to add some of these unsavory ad networks, products, affiliate upsells at every point throughout the website. We haven’t touched any of those avenues in 10 years of operating. We’ve stuck to traditional digital advertising. There are plenty of things we could have done to the website, if our motives were purely revenue driven. An unhappy community does not equate to more traffic volume. So why would we harbor trolls, scammers and thieves?

He wants me to go, and he’s said so.

This is the distinction that falls on deaf ears. I’ve never told that to any member. I’ve always stated that if we’re not meeting your expectations of what an online community should provide you, then we’re not the right fit for you. Strangely, I don’t remember mentioned this to you directly, but I have mentioned it to other members more recently.

It’s also difficult to gauge the real level of pain when users, with a short account age of a few days or weeks, come in screaming at the top of there lungs that this is wrong, that is wrong, you are wrong, regardless of any explanation that is provided, especially when those accounts have throw away registration email domains, TOR exit point IP profiles (meaning they hide where they’re truly from through proxy or VPN), and the throw-away email domains reside on the same host. That is the reality that moderators face every day. And that anonymity makes moderation efforts difficult.

Yes, we have retention issues, but I would gather that every online community goes through that. And as anybody who has traded forex or is learning forex, the shelf life of a forex trader can be very short given the amount of work that is necessary to become a successful trader. But there are some important aspects to a healthy online community that may have been lacking recently. Creating a more welcoming feeling starts with ridding the Forums of negativity and depressing comments, and replacing them with patience, respect, civility and decency. And we can work on that together.

If you give us a chance to fix issues, we will. If we can’t, we’ll do our best to tell you why we can’t, and then you decide if we’re the right place for you or not.

[anon98339083]

Sometimes we’re at the mercy of the system we use

So go back to the system you used before, then - one that your members like and prefer.

It’s good enough for all your competitors who are acquiring all the members and participation you’re continually driving away.

In the end, we get where we need to be.

Then why has your traffic declined throughout 2017, while more and more people are taking up forex trading, forex broker account opening is at an all-time high, and the participation-levels in other trading forums are continually expanding?

I’d say you don’t get where you need (and might want) to be.

Our action might not be the result you’re looking for

It’s almost never the result your members are looking for.

It takes weeks.

It’s a constant struggle and a constant argument.

You don’t remove members who perpetually paste in junk until a large number of your members have shouted at you in private and in public for many weeks.

You don’t learn.

You don’t improve.

You mismanage the forum and offend the members you ultimately need as badly now as you did over 3 years ago when I was last here.

I stand by my statements that all critical feedback threads about our policy and site are publicly visible for anyone to read

However much you “stand by it”, it’s untrue.

I’ve had plenty deleted.

And I’ve never used bad language or been aggressive or abusive or broken any of your other rules.

What you’re saying is simply a fiction.

An unhappy community does not equate to more traffic volume

So why don’t you do something about the lamentable lack of moderator-response to all these situations that keep on and on and on coming up over and over and over again?

The David Branco situations.

The profitbaby situations.

The Esche/Estis situations.

The no-value posts that make meaningless, repetitive comments bumping ancient threads to say things that have already been said in them.

They repeat endlessly because you do nothing about them.

You learn nothing.

Other trading forums don’t have all these problems that you create and exacerbate for yourself.

People have been telling you for years how easy it is to resolve and avoid them, but you just don’t listen.

If you give us a chance to fix issues, we will.

Your words always say that, and your behaviour always says the opposite.

However many times they repeat, you never fix them.

You always have a “process” that people have to wait weeks for. Or months. Or years.

But you never “fix them”.

It’s always complicated and you always have an excuse (when you reply at all). It’s slow, it’s difficult, it’s confusing, it’s unclear, it doesn’t fit your “process”, it’s the software, no rules have been broken, whatever.

You’re an absolute and unmitigated master at turning goodwill into ill-will.

[anon38711221]

Then why has your traffic declined throughout 2017, while more and more people are taking up forex trading, forex broker account opening is at an all-time high, and the participation-levels in other trading forums are continually expanding?

i also ask the same question

what is your answer to this, please, Pipstrdamus?

You’re an absolute and unmitigated master at turning goodwill into ill-will.

it seem to be true, exactly

[anon46773462]

Manxx:
at least allow the owners a reprieve to speak for themselves here and justify/explain things from their side of the fence.

It’s perhaps a bit late for that?

No, I don’t think so and I sincerely hope not. Discussion and negotiation are ultimately the only way of resolving issues to the (partial) satisfaction of all parties, even if it requires compromise from one, both, or all parties involved.

Pipstradamus has now provided a lengthy response covering at least most of the issues raised in this thread and I, for one, really appreciate that such a detailed response was offered. It contains many significant points - this is how I see it:

[quote=“Pipstradamus, post:33, topic:112641”]
We have our process, which does evolve based from member feedback, and we explain it when asked to. Sometimes we’re at the mercy of the system we use, other times a change we need has to go up the chain to the developer, for discussion and action, which takes time. In the end, we get where we need to be. If that logic doesn’t align with your expectations, which it clearly doesn’t, you have to ask yourself if you get enough value from our site and Forums to stick around and deal with those realities. If you do, great, let’s get back to trading.[/quote]
This confirms that there IS a process and that it DOES include consideration of member feedback. It is for each member to decide whether or not they a) believe this, b) accept that it is satisfactory, c) accept it anyway regardless of one’s own opinion.
If one finds oneself unable to live with the process as it manifests on the forum then one has to decide whether it would be better to move on. We have the right to raise issues, the owners have the right to decide how they will react to those issues, we do not have the right to demand or dictate how the owners must act. It is pointless to continually repeat the same complaint/response cycle if it is not making progress.

EVERY flagged post gets reviewed and acted on in some fashion. Our action might not be the result you’re looking for, but it gets attention internally. What you call censorship is cleanup, where posts are removed when discussions are derailed by feedback and comments about another user’s policy violations, even after the reporting user has been instructed multiple times to flag the post rather than discuss the issue right then and there.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Vigilante moderating has been condemned and rejected by members on these boards before. But, again, members have to decide for themselves whether they believe/accept this or not and take the appropriate action.

And locking threads is especially useful for discussions that go in circles, with no end in sight.

This is also a reasonable approach and would seem to be appropriate to this thread as well now that both sides have expressed their position and if no new issues are raised. The issues have been raised very forcefully, have been acknowledged and responded to. However Pipstradamus has left the gate open for further discussion and maybe it would be sensible to take up these various points one by one with concrete proposals instead of repeating and regurgitating previous experiences?

[quote=“Pipstradamus, post:33, topic:112641”]
An unhappy community does not equate to more traffic volume. So why would we harbor trolls, scammers and thieves?
I’ve always stated that if we’re not meeting your expectations of what an online community should provide you, then we’re not the right fit for you. [/quote]
OK, so that is the claim - but members state this is not the case and that the opposite is true. Is it then that Pipstradamus is lying or stretching the truth? or is it purely a question of timescales before actions are taken? This is certainly a serious issue relating directly to the core function and role of the forum and should be clarified!

[quote=“Pipstradamus, post:33, topic:112641”]
Yes, we have retention issues, but I would gather that every online community goes through that. And as anybody who has traded forex or is learning forex, the shelf life of a forex trader can be very short given the amount of work that is necessary to become a successful trader. But there are some important aspects to a healthy online community that may have been lacking recently Creating a more welcoming feeling starts with ridding the Forums of negativity and depressing comments, and replacing them with patience, respect, civility and decency. And we can work on that together.
If you give us a chance to fix issues, we will. If we can’t, we’ll do our best to tell you why we can’t, and then you decide if we’re the right place for you or not.[/quote]

Now this is the diamond sparkling in the eyes of the eternal optimist here. Here is both an acceptance that issues do exist and an invitation to help resolve them - how are you going to respond to that invite? Quickly thinks maybe it is a bit too late for that, but is it? only you can decide that. Personally, I really hope everyone here can somehow make a fresh start as from today.

The depth of handling of real forex issues on other threads is very shallow at present and your input there is of far greater value than stirring these old arguments are further here.

I really hope you can all reach a mutually satisfying solution without anyone leaving. Browsing here would be much more boring and valueless without your contributions to trading matters.

[anon46773462]

I just happened to notice that the number of views here is currently 222.

Since there are about 6/7 people here who have probably read all the posts, and there are 34 posts so far, does this not mean that these 6/7 people alone account for nearly the entire readings here?

Have I thought about that right? If so, what does that say about a) the general interest in this issue, b) the general interest in general!?

[anon25005637]

Charlie’s post above seems a good summary of the longer-term situation.

Remember, Manxx, that the same problems have been going on here for years, with successive groups of different members always apparently complaining about the same things in the same ways, disbelieving more or less the same representations from Pipstradamus, and eventually leaving for the same reasons, which they state openly.

That’s surely a significant guide to what goes on, here?

Maybe it’s also significant regarding the prospect of getting any change, in which case we’re all wasting our time.

I’m grateful to you for trying anyway, Manxx, and for your responses and reason. And your good nature. (All of which Pipstradamus should of course have said, but characteristically didn’t, so I’m saying it for him.)

Pipstradamus has now provided a lengthy response covering at least most of the issues raised in this thread

All but the important ones, to which he has no answer at all?

I wonder, reading what he says, whether he himself knows what goes on here at all. Maybe he imagines the moderators are doing their job, and they’re just not? That’s also possible?

He hasn’t begun to answer Charlie’s “substantive question”, which Piperazine and I have also asked.

It’s a straightforward enough question that’s apparently been asked here repeatedly in the past by other members who have now left and explained why.

On that point, I almost sympathise with him, in a sense, because the only answer to it that would make sense of obectively observed facts is something like “Yes, you’re clearly right: we’ve made rather a mess of everything and clearly need totally different policies and a totally different ‘process’, as every other forum has.”

It is for each member to decide whether or not they a) believe this, b) accept that it is satisfactory, c) accept it anyway regardless of one’s own opinion.

I don’t accept that it’s satisfactory. Neither, in the past, has a very large number of groups of people who have all rejected it for basically the same reasons.

I don’t believe a lot of what Pipstradamus says, but that’s less important. It’s actually the outcome I care about more than his honesty. I admit that it’s possible that he’s telling the truth as he sees it, but just sees it totally differently from what everyone else concerned would call “reality”. Maybe he still just doesn’t realise how offensive his behaviour has been to so many people (in spite of so many people having told him that it is, over a long time period, and explaining why they’re so offended, and all of them saying the same things!).

It is pointless to continually repeat the same complaint/response cycle if it is not making progress.

Looks like that’s right.

Unfortunately.

members have to decide for themselves whether they believe/accept this or not and take the appropriate action.

I neither believe nor accept it.

Like so many others, and for the same reasons.

Is it then that Pipstradamus is lying or stretching the truth?

Either that or for some reason he just doesn’t know what goes on here (also hard to believe, I know). But neither situation is exactly promising, is it?

He says “Yes, we have retention issues, but I would gather that every online community goes through that”, and to me that suggests either that he’s still trying to avoid answering Charlie’s question above or that he doesn’t accept its factual premise.

Again, neither situation is exactly promising, is it?

I refer to it as “Charlie’s question” simply because he’s the person who most recently asked it. Obviously it’s been many other people’s question, as well. We can see this from reading other threads started by people who have now left in protest or been removed having broken no rules (they say, and I believe them).

You and I, Manxx (and Charlie) have also now seen Lexys’ widely circulated explanation of the reason for her leaving the forum, and been appalled at Pipstradamus’s behaviour over that issue. Slightly different facts, certainly, but exactly the same attitude to the members he most needed. Yet again, he actively and deliberately chose to protect the malicious troll and lose one of his best contributors, knowing that that would be the outcome, didn’t he? What do you say to that, Manxx?

The depth of handling of real forex issues on other threads is very shallow at present

That’s putting it mildly.

Anyway, we all know why that is.

If he offers all-round apologies that sound sincere and genuine, and a firm, clear, unambiguous, public commitment to a radically different way of moderating the forum, maybe some people will be willing to help him. They’ve certainly offered enough in the past.[quote=“Manxx, post:37, topic:112641”]
Since there are about 6/7 people here who have probably read all the posts, and there are 34 posts so far, does this not mean that these 6/7 people alone account for nearly the entire readings here?

Have I thought about that right?
[/quote]

I don’t think so, but I’m not certain.

I don’t think it’s accurate.

I think it’s perhaps confused by the difficulty of logging in with this ghastly software, and by some other factors, too.

But in any case, we all know the forum’s in its death-throes: there’s no disputing that.

Apart from a handful of us, most of the members this place now attracts are people (of a type and with motivations) that other forums very wisely don’t allow to post.

Hence the problems we’re discussing: that’s basically why we’re having the whole conversation in the first place, isn’t it?

[_bob]

Its nice not having to be the one identifying these issues. We the community are more than capable of “policing” (for want of a better word) the forum. Indeed, if allowed to, without censorship, we would see traffic come back to the forum. We are rather entertaining after all and each one of us has a unique way to deal with freaks, trolls and spammers.

My hat is tilted for all of you.

[anon85101737]

Indeed, if allowed to, without censorship, we would see traffic come back to the forum.

Well said, Bob! I’m sure that’s right.

If you and Manxx were the moderators, the forum would be far more successful (and much nicer!) than it is now.

You and I, Manxx (and Charlie) have also now seen Lexys’ widely circulated explanation of the reason for her leaving the forum, and been appalled at Pipstradamus’s behaviour over that issue. Slightly different facts, certainly, but exactly the same attitude to the members he most needed. Yet again, he actively and deliberately chose to protect the malicious troll and lose one of his best contributors, knowing that that would be the outcome, didn’t he?

I haven’t seen it but would be interested to, if one of you would send it to me, please?

Maybe he did whatever he did knowingly because he wanted to get rid of her simply because she said all the same things the rest of us are saying?

I see she posted in public many times saying that she was doing so only as a last resort because they ignored private messages from her. I don’t know what happened, though. As I explained in my first post here, I only came here because of her. I didn’t know she’d gone.

[_bob]

@TacitaTrader

If you and Manxx were the moderators

Shite bro, lets not go that far. The forum is still the intellectual property of the owners. It’s just a pity they are such prudes.

[anon98339083]

Thanks for your input, Manxx and Bob.

Manxx, I agree with almost all Quickly’s responses to your perceptive comments but don’t have time now for another long post saying all the same things Quickly said.

Just one little point from me:-

Yet again, he actively and deliberately chose to protect the malicious troll and lose one of his best contributors, knowing that that would be the outcome, didn’t he?

The words “yet again” at the start of that sentence really tell the whole story here.