Hey guys, remember the idea of this thread - I took part in derailing it enough. Let’s keep it on track now.
Not equals, but it correlates. Yes.
I guess you are part of group 2?
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
Winston Churchill
[I]The inherent benefit of dictatorship is not having to share at all :)[/I]
I made that one myself mwahah
‘Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.’
Margaret Thatcher
Ouch, cheapshot! But no, it doesn’t correlate either (nor does it lead to); that’s a bold statement that requires backing up. I guess it could, but it’s up to society to stigmatize leeches anyway. In any case, the total benefit far outweighs the draw backs, if your unfounded claim happen to be true. But on topic:
Obscenity is whatever happens to shock some elderly and ignorant magistrate.
-Bertrand Russell
“Give me control of a nation’s money, and I care not who makes its laws.”
Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
I have enough personal evidence of that. Several people who could work with a very nice compensation but don’t and live off wellfare money from others. Beside of that it’s how human beings act. If there is money for free, the majority get’s lazy. At least in their career. But there is no free money. Others who work have to pay for the leechers. If that comes to a point where it flips, there are more and more leechers. Because if tax is too high, everybody with a healthy mind becomes a leechers if the money what he can get is as high from a welfare system as what he would get if he works. Or even more.
Is that avatar you? Then I have another quote:
A young man who isn’t a socialist hasn’t got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn’t got a head. David Lloyd George
So, it seems you have a heart. Grow “a little” older and then we’ll see if you have a head as well.
I rely more on hard cold facts than from personal anecdotes, though I do see what you mean. It is up to society to stigmatize, and take measures to prevent people from leeching to the fullest extent. It IS possible, it’s all up to the culture of that specific country, as well as labor-morals (I don’t know if this is a term in English, but it is in Norwegian). I odn’t believe that is true. Most people work (chose a specific line of work) because they love what they do, not contingent on their wages/salary. Welfare help, and working pay should of course, never overlap; this is obvious, and not an all a valid argument. Also, again, even if this happen, I think a majority would opt to work anyway. I also believe there is a clear correlation between lack of education and laziness. University should be subsidized/free. America is polling very low on international comparison studies.
Nope, that would be Bill Hicks.
Heard that quote before, it’s cute.
Ahh the age card already?! MAN that was fast. Well, a version of it I guess, paternalizing me at least! 
“I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit”
~Bill Hicks
Cheers
Longer than most quotes on here, and might have been posted previously (I am comparitively new around here), but this seemed fitting, both to today and to trading:
[B]
'Remembering that I’ll be dead soon is the most important tool I’ve ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything - all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.
Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice.
Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Don’t settle. As with all matters of the heart, you’ll know when you find it. And, like any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on. So keep looking until you find it. Don’t settle.[/B]
Steve Jobs - speech at Stamford Uni in 2005 (post his cancer diagnosis)
LOL, no not the age card. I am a heartless investor since long ago when I was young. 
It just fits with your avatar, lol.
Those anecdotes ARE facts. 3 ppl who denied to work for a very good salary because they had enough from the jobless support. The motivation to work is for sure there, but if ppl get their money from others anyways, they would work either not for salary or for an additional salary on top off their transfer income. Plus many people can’t get their stuff together as long as they are not being forced to go to work. Sad but true.
Giving something away for free “to help” is in fact the opposite than help. You can see this everywhere, if you look a little closer. I go so far and say that tax at all is illegal and a form of enslavement. It is just pseudo legalized by more or less unscrupulous politicians. You say why not steal money via tax from everybody and transfer it to others. I say why not stop the stealing at all? Why should I be forced to pay for things I have no control over? If there would be not tax, salary would be much higher! Because every politician and buerocrat must be paid in addition to the transfer money. Which adds to cost of work and is the inherent reason that welfare destroys jobs, too.
The job market is as every market and driven by supply and demand. Think about if you would have to buy 20 boxes of fish food if you need that or not at exactly one store of the state. You are forced to! You cannot buy anywhere else! That’s what tax is about! Instead of choice you are forced to buy with no option. That’s socialism and then look at Cuba or other pure socialist countries. The stores are almost empty! So, this would also happen with the job market if there is artificially control. You can not destroy markets, you can just deform them. Beside the deformation there would also rise other (black) markets.
Socialists are control freaks. They try to control everything, but you can’t. That’s the same like you would try to control the fx markets. You can’t! You can only get a bloody nose from it. Even whole countries get a bloody nose from it. Like UK. Our all well known George proved it! He went with the market laws and beat a whole country which went the socialstic way. You want facts? There you have it! Written in stone of history!
One last word. Regarding “stigmatizing”. Please let the morality out of such debates! Lions eat men and this is a natural habit. Nobody would stigmatize lions to do that. Why then stigmatize men to be as they were “made”? Men are thinking in economic terms. Everybody tries to work as less for the most he can get out of it. That’s not bad. That’s good! This is also a reason why those socialist illusions never work. They just ignore the economic thinking. If you start working and do not think in terms of effort and success, you won’t get much of success! That’s exactly what all experiments of socialism in history show you if you open your eyes! Socialist countries were never anything good for the people. There is a long list of countries.
Sorry, I was misunderstood; the anecdotes may be factually true, however, in terms of statistics, the sampling size (everyone you know, have talked to etc.) is too small to draw a conclusion. Likewise, I don’t know ANYONE who would rather be on welfare than work.
“tax is enslavement”. Are you An anarchist or something? Do you have any other solutions? Taxes provide infrastructure, and is vital to the modern industrialized world. Though I would be delighted to hear any alternatives. You are right, without taxes salaries would be much higher. But then you would have to contact private firms to organize to build roads, hire private policemen, firefighters, sewage system, garbage disposal etc. etc. I’m sure you know where I’m going with this… So, any alternatives to taxation then? I’m all ears.
Yes, Cuba is a fully socialized state. Of course I don’t agree with most of their politics, like you mention, food rations, or the government socializing the food industry. It sounds absurd, and I never mentioned doing that. And no, it would not happen to the job market. Of course, it depends on the amount of government intervention. No one is suggesting that they socialize this fully by the government. I might misunderstand you, I feel like you’re going off on a huge tangent here. Please elaborate how this is relevant (100% control by the government vs. some socialization).
Nope, socialists are not control freaks. They just see the need for a government intervention where the free market fails. I guess it’s all a matter of your ideology. I would be willing to sacrifice some of my economic freedom for the greater good, knowing that a third of my country does not live in poverty, you do not. Elaborate on “George…” please. I’m not sure what you are referring to.
Stigmatizing is purely a sociological phenomenon, it has nothing to do with morality. For example, in the Western world, by breaking in line (in the cinema for example), you break social norms. The response to this will vary from ugly stares, to confrontations. Stigmatizing leeching is a good thing, I don’t know why you are being hostile to it. Stigmatzing is a good way to collectively ensure a good society. It’s good for people to take advantage of system flaws? Like escaping on tax clauses, escaping paying millions of dollars in tax? I can’t believe you can defend that stance. Pure socialist countries always have turned into tyrannies, yes. Again, we’re not talking about extremes here, we’re not talking about creating a socialist state. That’s why I’m for a mixed market. Private corporations are better at value creating, while publicly owned institutions are better at public goods. Find a balance, and it’s all golden.
Frankly, this is not the thread to debate those things. If you wanna have a debate with some regarding the topic, open a thread. I don’t know why you come up after months with the same socialistic propaganda. Sure it would need private firms for build streets etc. but them are already there. It’s just that you can’t decide who gets the deal, but the government decided for you. No choice! No choice, no competition. No competition, no invention! No competition, high probablitly of corruption. Plus markets are not “free”. This is big BS and tells where you are coming from! The truth is this: Markets have an inherent regulation by supply and demand. The more competition, the better! The most effective regulation one can have, because it’s without paying for socialistic control freak ideology for corruption! The government is a monopoly. No competition at all! I bet you are not making a penny in fx if you don’t know how supply and demands works. Do you? It seems to me, you are falling for morality, but not for clarity. You make, in my opinion, the mistake that many liberals do: You take a theory which is proofed wrong over and over again by history and try to prove it right. That’s not the way science works. In science you have to come up with a theory and then you have to try to prove it wrong. The good news, as I said is, it is already proofed wrong. Why riding a dead horse over and over again? That’s all waste of precious time and energy! Let the markets regulate and that’s it. Already proofed right since thousands of years. Why would I need to invent another sick ideology? Makes no sense!
Anyways, have a great day!
Where do I even begin, I can’t stand to read to this crap, sorry. You’ve been brainwashed. Even if your ideology was logical (which it’s not) our governments are now just a front for the BANKERS. As Clint said in his quote…money and power are one in the same. The bankers control the money supply, the say they are doing it for our own good. Now look at the economy and what they have done. We are already in a global socialist system…how’s it working out!?
The answer? It’s going to be a long road. We have to dismantle and replace their institutions…and put them in jail. Before that, people have to wake up to the truth, at least that IS happening now. I rarely take a thread off topic…so give me a pass on this one guys.
I was going to stay out of this, but I just have to ask: If bankers control the governments, how come we’re in a global socialist system? This makes no sense to me since there is really nothing more capitalist than bankers huh
It’s not bankers is the traditional sense. They want control over the world, and in turn need to control money supply. Look, if they just wanted to get rich and live their lives, fine…that’s capitalism. But they take over control of government policy to favor themselves, and in turn that government becomes a tool to redistribute wealth and intrude on personal liberty, then it’s a socialist government pretending to be by the people. Call it want you want…it’s just wrong.
I see what you mean. Don’t know why, but I remembered a quote by Al Bundy: “It’s only cheating if you get caught” 
haha, yes and the people are trying to catch them. Incase you guys haven’t head around the world, the US has demonstrations against this now everywhere…started by “Occupy Wall St.” Sure some of the protestesers are misguided, but I think 95% of them understand and agree with the point I made. We can go back to fighting liberal versus conservative, and all the rest, AFTER the world mafia is put in jail. I’m going to stop here…maybe I’ll start a thread on it because I think this is something that needs to be understood by lots of people before it can change. For the people that do understand, we (the world) has to start the conversation on how to dismantle the empire. It’s going to be a bumpy road.
I’ll go out with a quote to make up for that…
Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven’t had capitalism.
A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not fiat money manipulated by a central bank. Capitalism cherishes voluntary contracts and interest rates that are determined by savings, not credit creation by a central bank.
-Ron Paul
I apologize, in advance, for the following wall of text. But, I think these quotes need to be carefully considered.
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power [of money] should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs.”
President Thomas Jefferson
"A great industrial nation is controlled by it’s system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world – no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
President Woodrow Wilson
“This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson] signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized…the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill.”
Rep. Charles Lindbergh, Sr., 1913
“From now on, depressions will be scientifically created.” — Rep. Charles Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913
“The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board administers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people’s money”
Rep. Charles Lindbergh, Sr., 1923
“It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
Henry Ford
"…I am convinced that the agreement [Bretton Woods] will enthrone a world dictatorship of private finance more complete and terrible than any Hitlerite dream. It offers no solution of world problems, but quite blatantly sets up controls which will reduce the smaller nations to vassal states and make every government the mouthpiece and tool of International Finance. It will undermine and destroy the democratic institutions of this country - in fact as effectively as ever the Fascist forces could have done - pervert and paganise our Christian ideals; and will undoubtedly present a new menace, endangering world peace. World collaboration of private financial interests can only mean mass unemployment, slavery, misery, degradation and financial destruction. Therefore, as freedom loving Australians we should reject this infamous proposal.
Eddie Ward, Labor Minister of Australia, at the inception of the Bretton Woods Agreement which established the World Bank.
“Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States.”
Sen. Barry Goldwater
“We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system… It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon.”
Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
Well, regarding money system: That’s not real money either. It’s just a ponzi scheme based on debt. It works like this:
If there is demand, money will be generated by banks. They lend the money to the party of demand. For that they get interest. Now that’s the problem. Because nobody can print money beside of the banks. The party of demand can’t print the interest money. So, the party of demand has to pay interest in real goods. You can see this ponzi scheme at work already with the housing markets. Many people have demand of money to buy a house and get it from banks. If they can’t pay it back, there comes the day of foreclosure. At the end the money AND the house is gone all together. Now after you learned this (if you don’t know already), read the housing ads of the banks with a different mind! 