Simple Problem

hi all,

I am very new to trading. I reside in UK and thus want to open an account in GBP
but something is puzzling me.
The profits of a trade are usually calculated in the quote currency which is the denominator of the pair (if i have got the lingo right !!). So e.g. if i trade 1 mini or micro lot of USD/JPN I would be paying GBP to buy (long) USD and going short an equal proportion of JPN. Thus, GBP is being converted into USD’s to pay for the trade.
If i make a profit/loss, they are calculated in JPN which would then be converted back to GBP when i close the trade (depending on the day’s exchange rate) and my P&L will depict that accordingly.

the trade can be summed up as :

Thus,theoretically, i am loosing money 4 ways before i start i.e. when GBP is converted to US (the exchange rate) and when JPN is converted back to GBP to calculate the p or L(the exchange rate) and the bid-ask spread to the broker (x2 - to enter and leave the trade) as follows:

USD/JPN = USD/GBP * GBP/JPN + broker (bid-ask) X2 - although it doesnt happen this way but in my mind its featuring this way.

Here’s the question: Do I open a GBP based account or do i convert all GBP to USD and have a USD based account ? That way i take a 1 off hit and minimising each trade risk linked to fluctuating USD GBP rate.

Kindly help?

Sorry If i have sounded stupid but hey i need to start somewhere.

The good news is that this is way simpler than you have made it out to be.

First — and please get this concept firmly embedded in your mind — there is no buying or selling of any currency in the retail forex market. And there is no buying or selling of any currency [I]pair[/I] in the retail forex market. In fact, the whole idea of “buying” a currency [I]pair[/I] is an oxymoron. (If you actually bought one, what would you own?)

And yet, we all use the “buy/sell” terminology. I use that terminology, myself. I refer to “buying the yen-pairs”, or “selling the euro-pairs”. So, what’s going on here?

Forex trading is speculating on one currency (the base currency) as priced in another currency (the cross currency). The only thing which matters in a forex trade is whether the value of the base currency goes up or down relative to the cross-currency.

If you go LONG the EUR/USD (what we typically, and incorrectly, call “buying” the EUR/USD), only one thing matters: does the euro get more (or less) expensive, as priced in dollars. If the euro gets more expensive, as priced in dollars, then this LONG trade makes a profit.

Now, here’s the good part. As the price of the EUR changes in terms of the USD, the profit or loss resulting in your position is automatically calculated in your account currency — GBP, in your case — and displayed that way in your trading platform.

There is no conversion of one currency into another currency. Retail forex is not a foreign exchange kiosk at the airport.

If your account currency is GBP, and you speculate (that is, “buy” meaning go long, or “sell” meaning go short) in the EUR/USD, some math has to be performed by your trading platform in order to register everything in your account currency. But, this all happens behind the scenes, and in most cases, you don’t even have to be aware of it.

Rest assured that you are not losing money on currency conversions, you are not taking any special losses, and you are not suffering any unnecessary transaction fees, due to the fact that your account currency is [I]not[/I] the same as either the base currency or the cross-currency of the pair you are trading.

My forex accounts are all in USD. If I go LONG the EUR/JPY, and the euro gains in value against the yen, my profit will be posted in USD in my USD-denominated account. And, if you take the same trade in your GBP-denominated account, your profit will be exactly the pound-sterling equivalent of my dollar profit.

The only factor which should influence your choice of an account currency is convenience. If your [I]life[/I] is denominated in GBP, then it makes sense to have your forex account denominated in GBP, as well. You probably think in terms of GBP. You probably intend to make deposits and withdrawals in your forex account in GBP. GBP is the way to go. In your case, any other account currency would probably be a pain in the butt.

Clint,

using your account and your example, account is in USD and you open-and-close a trade of EUR/JPY, do the final profits of that trade (in either Euro or Yen) get converted into your USD at the USD/JPY oe EUR/USD rate that is present at the exact moment that the EUR/JPY trade is closed? or do they take the average of rate-at-open and rate-at-close?

obviously the differences are tiny since the conversion is happening on only the net profit/loss, but still i’m curious.

Profit is in yen, not euro.

Profit is converted to USD at the USD/JPY conversion rate prevailing at the time the trade is closed.

Recall that the price of a pair refers to the price of [B]1 unit of base currency as priced in the cross-currency.[/B]
So, in the case of a EUR/JPY position, the price (say 130.45) means that €1 = ¥130.45

If a one-mini-lot (10K) long EUR/JPY position is opened at 130.45 and closed at 131.45, the profit earned is 100 pips — which, for a 10K position (in any yen-pair), is a profit of ¥10,000. In a USD-denominated account, that profit will be booked in the USD-equivalent of ¥10,000, as determined by the price of the USD/JPY at the time the trade is closed.

Hi Clint,
Thanks a lot for clarifying my query. I am particularly interested in your example of EUR/JPY which you have shown above. But i would like to extend you example and as i want to understand what would my account balance look like when i take on the trade and exit the trade. Kindly feel free to correct my calculations. I will be most obliged.
Assume I have $5000 in my broker account
Enter the trade:
Long 1 LOT of EUR/JPY @ 130.45 - thus, I am Long EURO 1,00,000 and Short JPY 13,045,000 (130.45*1,00,000)
Now assume that the margin requirement for this trade is 2% thus i only need to put up EURO 2000 for this trade. But this needs to be denominated (for accounting purposes, in my base currency which is USD). At this juncture i assume the system will look at EURO/USD rate. Assume, EURO/USD is trading @ 1.306 thus EURO 2000 = USD 2612 (EURO 2000 * 1.306). – LOSS – 1 – as I had to go to the market to exchange my the EURO for an equal amount of USD’s thus I paid the ask price which is always higher (accepted fact)
So my broker a/c will thus show the following (if my calculations are right) balance:
Margin: $2612
Excess Margin: $2388 ($5000-$2612) (-brokerage charge: NOT INCLUDED)
PLUS i pay the bid-ask spread to the broker or the brokerage charge when i enter the trade- LOSS – 2 – pay the gate keepers to enter the market

Leave the trade:
Assume EURO/JPN has moved up by 100 pip’s which was my profit target thus I have earned:
100 pip’s x YEN 1000 (value of a pip for a std lot) = JPY 100,000.
Now again for accounting purposes this will need to be converted in USD’s thus again I assume that the system will look at the day’s USD/JPY rate. Assume that I get a rate of 99.12 thus
1USD = JPY 99.12 therefore JPY 100,000 = USD 1008.87 – LOSS 3 - as I had to go to the market again to exchange my JPY for USD’s thus I paid the price i.e. HIGHER
If I close my account then my a/c balance will be
Balance: $5000 + $1008.87 = $6008.87 (MINUS BROKERAGE CHARGE AS THAT HAS BEEN NEGLECTED)
In real life I would have a LOSS 4 – is again the fact that I pay my broker to exit the trade
So if I have traded EURO/JPY the in essence I have traded:
EURO/JYP = EURO/USD * USD/JPY which is what my initial post claims.
PLEASE CORRECT THIS IF IT SOUNDS STUPID. HELO WILL BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED

CORRECTION FOR YOU CLINT: Sorry but isin’t the value of 1 pip for a mini lot = JPY 100 and not JPY 1 as mentioned by you therefore a 100 pip movement is equal to 100*100 = JPY 10,000 and not JPY100.

You’re correct that [B]you are long the pair.[/B]

However, you are [B]not[/B] long the base currency, and you are [B]not[/B] short the cross-currency.


These calculations are easier than you have made them out to be.

Here’s my calculation:

Initial balance = $5,000

Enter long one standard lot (100,000 units) of EUR/JPY at the broker’s ASK price of 130.45

Exit at the broker’s BID price of 131.45 (note that the BID/ASK spread is already accounted for)

Profit = ¥1 per unit of EUR/JPY = ¥100,000 per standard lot

Profit (in USD) = profit in JPY ÷ price of USD/JPY = ¥100,000 ÷ ¥99.12 / $ = $1,008.88

Final balance = $5,000 + $1,008.88 = [B]6,008.88[/B]

A note regarding how the spread is accounted for:

You entered long at 130.45 (at the ASK price) and exited at 131.45 (at the BID price). In other words, in your trade, you covered the spread (which I assumed to be 3 pips) and made an additional net profit of 100 pips. This represents a rise in both the ASK price and the BID price of 103 pips.


I was able to follow most of your math. However, I got confused trying to keep track of the “losses” (which you numbered from 1 through 4, I think). I’m not sure, but it seems that you have assumed that losses will occur due to spreads at 4 different times over the course of this trade.

There is only one spread to contend with: your broker’s BID/ASK spread on the EUR/JPY, as I discussed above.

In your calculations, you began with $5,000 and you ended up with [B]$6,008.87[/B], by assuming price movement of exactly 100 pips, and ignoring any BID/ASK spread cost. I agree with that result. 100 pips of price movement, ignoring the spread, is essentially the same thing as 103 pips of price movement, including a 3-pip spread.

We agree on the bottom line, but we don’t agree on the method of calculating it. I think you have made the calculation extraordinarily complicated.

The penny difference between our results is obviously due to a rounding error somewhere.


If you want to see how a typical broker would display this account before, during and after this trade, here goes:

[U]Prior to entering this trade:[/U]

Balance = $5,000
Equity = $5,000
Used margin = 0
Usable (free) margin = $5,000
Open P/L = 0

[U]Immediately upon entering the trade:[/U]

Balance = $5,000 (this figure will not change until your trade is closed)
Equity = $4,969.73 (this is your balance ± open P/L)
Used margin = $2,612 (as we both calculated it)
Usable (free) margin = $2,357.73 (this is equity - used margin)
Open P/L = -$30.27 (this is the initial “loss” due to the spread, assumed to be 3 pips*)

[U]After the EUR/JPY has risen by 103 pips[/U] (from 130.42/45 to 131.45/48):

Balance = $5,000
Equity = $6,008.88
Used margin = $2,612 (this figure will not change while this trade is open)
Usable (free) margin = $3,396.88
Open P/L = $1,008.88 (previous negative P/L + 103 pips* of price movement)

[U]After the trade is closed:[/U]

Balance = $6,008.88
Equity = $6,008.88
Used margin = 0
Usable (free) margin = $6,008.88
Open P/L = 0

  • note: pips converted to USD as follows: $1,000 ÷ USD/JPY x pips = $1,000 ÷ 99.12 x pips

Good catch. I will edit my previous post to correct my error.

Prior to entering this trade:

Balance = $5,000
Equity = $5,000
Used margin = 0
Usable (free) margin = $5,000
Open P/L = 0

Immediately upon entering the trade:

Balance = $5,000 (this figure will not change until your trade is closed)
Equity = $4,969.73 (this is your balance ± open P/L)
Used margin = $2,612 (as we both calculated it)
Usable (free) margin = $2,357.73 (this is equity - used margin)
Open P/L = -$30.27 (this is the initial “loss” due to the spread, assumed to be 3 pips*)

After the EUR/JPY has risen by 100 pips (from 130.42/45 to 131.45/48):

And NOT 103pip as when you close the position, you close it for 131.45

Balance = $5,000
Equity = $4969.73 + $1008.88 (100 pip) = $5978.61
Used margin = $2,612 (this figure will not change while this trade is open)
Usable (free) margin = $3,366.61
Open P/L = $978.61 (previous negative P/L + 100 pips* of price movement)

After the trade is closed: (3 pip’s paid again to EXIT the position)

Balance = $5948.34
Equity = $5948.34 [$5978.61 - $30.27(3 pip to exit out of the trade)]
Used margin = 0
Usable (free) margin = $5948.34
Open P/L = 0

  • note: pips converted to USD as follows: $1,000 ÷ USD/JPY x pips = $1,000 ÷ 99.12 x pips

do you pay 3 pip’s every time you enter and leave the trade or just once ?

Just once.

The 3-pip SPREAD in the example is not a transaction fee, or a commission.

The SPREAD is the difference between two simultaneous prices: the price at which a particular broker is willing to sell to a buyer, and the price at which he is willing to buy from a seller.

If two traders transact equal, but opposite, trades with the same broker at exactly the same time, the trader who buys will transact at a higher price than the trader who sells. For example, the buyer might buy the EUR/USD at the broker’s ASK price of 1.3040, while the seller is selling the EUR/USD — at exactly the same time — at the broker’s BID price of 1.3038. The 2-pip difference between these two simultaneous prices is the broker’s spread at that moment.

(For convenience, we are using the slang terms “buy” and “sell”, although we understand that in retail forex there is no buying or selling. The words “buy” and “sell” are just easier to use than “taking a long position”, or “taking a short position”.)

Your broker offers two prices in each currency pair, on a continuous basis:

The ASK price, at which he is willing to sell to you. If you decide to buy, this is the price you will pay.

The BID price, at which he is willing to buy from you. If you decide to sell, this is the price which you will receive.

You always buy at the ASK price, and sell at the BID price. The SPREAD is the difference between these two prices. Spreads vary from pair to pair, from broker to broker, and from time to time.

On rare occasions, a spread might shrink to ZERO. At times of high market volatility, a spread might widen to an unusually large number of pips. When scheduled economic data releases (or unscheduled news events) hit the market, spreads can widen suddenly, making STOPS especially vulnerable during these times.

At normal times, when the forex market is orderly and prices are not spiking, spreads offered by [I]most[/I] brokers will be in the following ranges:

0-4 pips for any of the 7 major pairs (7 major currencies, each paired with the USD)

3-8 pips for any of the 21 major crosses (7 major currencies paired with each other, not involving the USD)

2-500* pips for any of the dozens of exotic pairs (minor currencies paired with a major, or with each other)

Your broker may offer a spread on the EUR/JPY which is different from the 3 pips which I used in the example.

Some forex accounts feature fixed spreads, but most of them feature floating spreads; that is, the retail spreads offered to you will fluctuate roughly in tandem with the wholesale spreads offered to the broker by his liquidity providers.

In every case, there is only one spread per trade.

  • At the time this was posted, Oanda was showing the spread on the EUR/CZK (euro/czech koruny) as 500 pips.

Dear Clint,

I wonder if you could clarify what exactly is a unit-to-pip value ratio in layman terms & how is it calculated?

And how it varies for different pairs.

Many thanks in advance & I look forward to your reply.

Hello, Serendipityz

Sorry for the long delay in replying to your post. I’ve been away from the forum.

You asked about the term “unit-to-pip value ratio”. I have seen that term in only one place — in the Babypips School lesson on position sizing. Here’s the first of two quotes from that lesson:

“Lastly, we multiply the value per pip by a known [B]unit/pip value ratio[/B] of EUR/USD.
In this case, with 10k units (or one mini lot), each pip move is worth USD 1.”

Further down in this same lesson, you will come to the second quote:

“Finally, multiply the value per pip move by the known [B]unit-to-pip value ratio:[/B]
(USD 0.375 per pip) * [(10k units of EUR/USD)/(USD1 per pip)] = 3,750 units of EUR/USD”

Here’s the page where those quotes can be found — Calculating Position Sizes | Position Sizing | Learn Forex Trading

I think this particular terminology is very confusing. And, to make matters even worse, the School uses two, slightly different, versions of this confusing terminology ([B]“unit/pip value ratio”[/B] in one place, and [B]“unit-to-pip value ratio”[/B] in another place).

If you have studied the lesson on position sizing, you have learned that doing the position-size calculations by hand is fairly simple when the cross-currency of the pair you are trading is the same as your account currency (for example, if you trade the EUR/USD in a USD-denominated account). But, the calculations are more complicated when the cross-currency is not the same as your account currency (for example, if you trade the USD/JPY in a USD-denominated account). The School lesson covers both of these cases, and the two quotes (above) are from the two examples given in the lesson.

Let’s summarize the simpler case (when the cross-currency matches the account currency), and let’s find a way to sidestep that confusing terminology.

If you’re doing a position-size calculation by hand (rather than using a Position Size Calculator), then you have to do these steps:

(1) Determine what portion of your account you are willing to risk — for instance 2% of your account balance.

(2) Determine the appropriate number of pips between your entry price and your stop-loss.

(3) Equate (1) and (2) above, in order to determine how much a pip will be worth in dollars, or pounds, or whatever your account currency is.

(4) Figure out what position size will make each pip worth the amount that you determined in (3) above.

The confusing terminology — “unit/pip value ratio” in one place, and “unit-to-pip value ratio” in another place — refers to step (4) above, and it basically means that, if you know the value of 1 pip per LOT, then you can figure how many lots (or what fraction of a lot) you should trade, in order to make 1 pip worth the amount you determined in step (3) above.

In this simple case which we are considering (cross-currency matches account currency), we know that a position-size of one standard lot (100,000 units of base currency) corresponds to a pip-value of $10 per pip. Furthermore, for other position sizes, we know that the pip-value is always proportional to the position size.

[B]This is the “ratio” that the School lesson is trying to denote with their awkward terminology.[/B]

Let’s run through a quick example:

You have a GBP-denominated account, and you want to trade the EUR/GBP. You observe that the cross-currency matches the account currency, so you know that for a 1-LOT position size, 1 pip will be worth £10; for a 1-mini-lot position size, 1 pip will be worth £1; etc.

You decide to risk no more than £8 on your EUR/GBP trade. And you determine that a 40-pip stop-loss is required on this trade.

To determine the correct position size for your EUR/GBP trade, such that a 40-pip move against you, tripping your stop-loss, will result in a loss of £8, you do the following calculations:

40 pips = £8.

Therefore, 1 pip = £0.20

1 pip would be worth £1 for a position size of 1 mini-lot (10,000 units of base currency)

Therefore, 1 pip would be worth £0.20 for a position size of 0.2 mini-lot (2,000 units of base currency).

So, the correct position size in this example is 2,000 units, or 2 micro-lots.

The awkward terminology in the School lesson refers to the last step in the example above. Specifically, the ratio referred to in the School lesson is any of the following equivalent metrics:

£10 per pip per STANDARD LOT (100,000 units of currency)

£1 per pip per MINI-LOT (10,000 units of currency)

£0.10 per pip per MICRO-LOT (1,000 units of currency)

£0.01 per pip per NANO-LOT (100 units of currency)

£0.0001 per pip per UNIT of currency

Note: in the example above, if the account currency were USD (instead of GBP), and if the pair traded had the USD as its cross-currency (instead of the GBP), all of the numbers would remain the same. That is, each of the £-signs in the example can be replaced with a $-sign, and the example will still be valid.

Another note: in the forex business, the terms “micro” and “nano” are mis-used. In science and mathematics, micro means one-millionth, and nano means one-billionth. So, this particular forex terminology is off by several orders of magnitude.

Hi Clint Ty for coming back to me. It clears some of the mud but how would we calculate this ratio when it comes to jpy crosses? For example would it be JPY1 or JPY100 per pip per MINI-LOT (10,000 units of currency)?

Also on another note not having much luck with emails to our mutual acquaintance ICT at his website can you shed any light?

It would be [B]¥100 per pip per mini-lot[/B] (¥1,000 per pip per STANDARD LOT, etc.)

If you are trading a yen-pair in a JPY-denominated account, then no further conversion would be necessary.

If you are trading a yen-pair in an account denominated in some other currency, then you would have to convert the pip-value in yen to the corresponding pip-value in your account currency.

Example: if your account currency is USD, then you would first determine the pip-value in yen, and then divide it by the current price of the USD/JPY to get the current pip-value in dollars.

If your account currency is GBP, then you would first determine the pip-value in yen, and then divide it by the current price of the GBP/JPY to get the current pip-value in pounds sterling.

These calculations are time-consuming, and it’s easy to make an error doing them. That’s why almost every trader does them using a [B]Pip Value Calculator,[/B] such as this one, or a [B]Position Size Calculator,[/B] such as this one.

If you’re coding an EA or a robot, and you have to build these calculations into your coding, then you need to know how to do them manually. But, for any other situation, consider using the Babypips Calculators. They will save you a lot of time, and help you avoid costly errors.

As for Michael’s email address, the one I have used is InnerCircleTrader@gmail .com (without the space before the dot). I haven’t corresponded with Michael by email for about 30 days; but, as far as I know, his email address has not changed.

Ty. I will no doubt call upon you another occasion but as always your help is always most appreciated.

You’ve got to love stops like your Mom. Setting protective stops when trading should be as automatic as breathing to you. The stop is an effective protection for your nerves and your accounts, no matter what others say against it. Stops will one day save you from the markets that refuse to come back – in contrast to your usual expectation. Never trade without them. It’s a foolish act to allow a trade that could be closed with a negligible loss snowball into a huge negativity.

You are only trading a derivative so its not a case of converting 2-3 times along your trade. A lot simpler than you think.

Thank you Clint for the excellent explanation for this new person…and a special thank you to Nomindtrader, for an excellent none emotional question…u have a great mind. As a trader of all capital instruments for close to 40 years now, on the floor at CBOT in the old days, up to today on the internet. The most important part of this endeavor is money management and the mechanics of it all. If you trade ANYTHING, you pay a spread, a commish or something. This MUST be included in entry, exit or target…you cannot trade for free. I am tired of people saying everyone is out to GET or RUN their stop. Let me give you an example…You are new…the spread on eur/usd is 2.5 tics…you place your stop in a typical place WITHOUT adding in the spread? You are a sitting duck. The next is a head fake…lets say we have an uptrend…we know regardless what time frame u trade 1min , Daily your stop as a new person is probably below
the last 3 periods, without the spread calculated. I will be there to buy. The last is EGO…years ago you had to have at least 5K to trade, which meant Dr.s , Lawyers , Engineers today…anyone with a thousand can trade. Whatever, someone brings to the table is LOST here. You may be very successfull , but the map is not the territory. You need to see it and feel it…it is not hopeless at all…you just need to pay your dues…like everything else

To avoid all the confusions better to create account in the USD that’s all. But in real terms you do not have to calculate anything nor bear any fees, so its okay.

Thanks clint for the clarification, its really very educational.