The finest in trend trading

I must say I don’t quite understand this discussion.

To me it’s obvious that method nr 1 is (on average) several times more profitable over X number of trades.

Naturally there will be drawdowns during losing streaks but these will be made up for during winnings streaks - law of averages.

Is the need for comfort so great that you would settle for a method which is more than three times less profitable?

The only case that I can see made for choosing method nr 2 would be by using it with increased % risk. Still, the method in itself is inferior to nr 1.

This being about trading naked and me being a bit of a movie fan. This reminds me of the scene where Luke is about to launch his torpedoes into the Death Star at the end of Episode 4. OB1 tells him to switch off his targetting computer (trading naked) and to trust in the force.

We all know how that episode ended. :smiley:

So yeah, i also did my math and came to the same mathematical conclusion like many. o990l6mh described this very good i think:

After this i noticed the following:
Since both trades have a StopLoss of 10 pips i think we could calculate this through using our 2-contract-strategy.

So i tried.

Assume the following:

  • I enter a trade with 2-contracts (Using Metatrader i still think in “lots”, sry for that)

  • Pip-value is 1$ a pip

  • My StopLoss is at [B]- 10 pips[/B] (SL)

  • My TakeProfit #1 should equal my StopLoss, so it would be at [B]+ 10 pips[/B] (TP 1)

  • If my TP 1 is reached i liquidate 1 contract (0,1 lots in the picture)

  • I set my StopLoss to Breakeven to make this trade a winner for sure

  • If the PA (priceaction) continues in my favor i only have 0,1 lots to go on with

  • That means, from that point on i only have a pip-value of 0,50 cents, right?

continues in 2nd post

Thats true on paper, but in real time trading it could be different.
As someone else pointed out, if you get 10 trades at 15 pips a day and only one at 100, then the the method that only nets 15 pips a trade will bring in 50 pips more than the single 100 pip trade for that day.

Plus it can also be compounded 10 times in that one day.

I still like the idea of trading both methods though, and if there really was something like either of these - surely they would be the holy grails of trading.

who knows, maybe Tymen has found a pair of holy grails:)

I believe that was the crux of my reply. I would employ Method 2, but with the caveat that I certainly wouldn’t be trading under conventional MM rules. With a system that guarantees a 98% win rate wouldn’t you use tremendous leverage and wager 20%, 30% - or an even higher percentage - of your available account balance? Such a system would yield such staggering gains that the minuscule 2% of losses wouldn’t even put a dent in your vastly-expanding portfolio.

Conversely, following a lifetime of trades adhering to [I]conventional[/I] MM rules, Method 1 would be superior.

2nd post

Now I started calculating a little:

  • If my StopLoss would be hit instantly after i entered my trade i would have my full 2 contracts (0,2 lots in the picture) giving me a 10 pip loss:
    => 10 pips * 0,2 lots
    => 10 pips * 1$
    => 10 $
    So I always risk 10 $.

  • If my TakeProfit # 1 would be hit after i entered my trade i would have only 1 contract
    (0,1 lots in the picture) giving me a 10 pip profit:
    => 10 pips * 0,1 lots
    => 10 pips * 0,50 $
    => 5 $

Since my StopLoss is now moved to breakeven this trade will be a winner.
But consider this: If its going against me i will be left with 5 $ of profit.
That means this trade can`t cover my next loosing trade.
Whats more is that i would need two of these to actually cover one loosing trade.

  • If the PA would make its way up to my TP # 2 exiting my remaining contract would make me 10 $. (Calculation in the picture)

  • That whole trade would have made me 15 $ now.

  • That means it can pay for the next looser and gives me a profit of 5$

  • Or you can see it like this: This winner can now pay for the next 1,5 loosing trades.

  • Unfortunately we never reach that point with Option 2.

  • We only go up to + 15 pips (7,5 $)

  • That whole trade would have made me 12,50 $ now.

  • It can pay for the next loosing trade. But the risk:reward isnt too good.

Overall, what we can expect when we would choose Option # 2 would look like this:
(Image attached)

Since we know that anything is possible in forex (news going against us, technical problems, human failure, and so on) i personally think that a winning trade should be able to cover many loosig trades.

So i would go with option # 1.

Sorry if my calculation is wrong, or maybe its going in a wrong direction. But IF the final method uses the 2-contract-strategy i think we should defenitely take a look at it.

To finish this:
Problems i see with this option:

  • trades take more time
  • 50% loosing trades my affect traders emotions


Using a combination of both Options sounds also really nice to me.

Wouldnt it be nice if we can use option # 1 (Take Profit is pretty far away) if we go with the main-trend and Option # 2 (Take Profit is close) if we trade the retracements?

Hehe, but maybe thats now possible like this :slight_smile:

EDIT:
Later i was thinking some more about this approach. I posted my thoughts on the next page.

[QUOTE = NForex; 185519] L’utilisation d’une combinaison des deux options sons aussi très gentil avec moi.

Wouldnt il pas bien si nous pouvons utiliser l’option # 1 (Take Profit est assez loin) si nous optons pour la principale tendance et Option # 2 (Take Profit est proche) si l’on échange les replis?

Hehe, mais thats peut-être maintenant possible, comme ça:) [/ QUOTE]

I like this idea, and I am in the mix of 2, but only the humble opinion of a quick newbie.:o

I just re-read his question and I think he means this is a single trade, and this ONE trade has a 98% chance of getting 15 pips and a 50% chance of getting 100 (with the same 10 pip SL)

If I came across a single set up like this, I think I would go for the 15 pips and trade with a bigger lot size than normal.

Greetings Tymen, after a very busy couple weeks I finally caught up to your thread. Though a newbie on this forum, I bring over two decades of trading experience to the table. It took me a bit to catch up because I didn’t want to miss a thing along the way. Your teaching style is amazing. After almost 200 pages of posts you are still able to inspire mystery and excitement. I must admit that even though I consider my trading style 80% technical and 20% fundamental, I have learned much along the way by going through each exercise. I do hope that now that I have caught up, I can give back at least a small percent of what you have so generously donated.

As to your exercise, I remember a similar one done in a training seminar many years ago. Participants were given the chance to fund their demo accounts with monopoly money drawn from one of three sacks, without being able to see what was in them. One sack had $5000 written on the outside. The other two had question marks on the outside. Participants were told that in one of the two question marked sacks was $20,0000 in the other was only $500. They were told that if they drew the $500 they would have very little trading capital to proceed with, and odds were very great they would blow out their demo account.

Out of 20 participants, 19 went for the sure $5000 to be sure to have enough to fund their demo account. Only one guy was crazy enough to risk not having sufficient capital to continue and drew from the question marked sacks. In this case he drew the $20,000 but it was a 50/50 chance and he could have just as easily been terribly under capitalized with only $500 to start the next exercise.

Afterward they went through the math, which I only vaguely remember, and proved that the one crazy guy made the best possible decision. His expected return was about twice that of taking the sure $5000. Of course, I was the crazy guy, and I haven’t changed much since then. I would chose option 1 and control my money management by taking smaller positions, so as to get the best possible expected outcome with a small risk of major draw down.

Without doing any real math, I’d say if I normally trade 10 full lots with a 50/50 win loss ratio, I would in this case chose option 1 and drop my position all the way down to 0.5 lots, or 5 minis. If a trader normally trades 1 lot, I would say he should drop down to to 0.05, or 5 micros for this trade. But that’s just gut feel off the top of my head. I’m sure some quants among us can do better with the math than I.

I always intend to trade in multiples of 5 since I always trade the multiple lot approach you recommend, but I just take it a bit further to reduce risk and increase reward. I don’t always get all 5 lots in, but when I do it’s ooh so sweet. A really good R/R ratio can cover up lots of sins, as it turns out.

So teach, how did I do my first day in class? No worries mate, nothing you say can scar me deeper than the markets have over the last couple decades.

1 Like

#2 would be the better option because many would deal with emotions too.
If we are robots it would work with #1, but reality would dictate for many #2.
Post 1917 shows a nice overall uptrend possibility. On a real-time chart when we hit the first time the highest point (blue) and short starts (red) we will not now how far the short will go (except in hindsight) and that’s the moment our emotions will kick in. How far are we sure this is just retracement and not a ongoing downtrend?
We don’t.
Probably that’s the point where “experience” kicks in, or Tymen, when he knows to jump out since he seems to have the experience and the “gut feeling”. :slight_smile:

Tymen1, end our debate!

Hehehehehhe

More, more, need more forex knowledge.

Red

If the chance of winnings is 98%(!!!) everytime then thats my choice:cool:!
Thats almost a 100% chance of winning EVERY trade. If example number 1 had a 98% of winning then that would be my choice… c´mon ppl isnt it obviuos:confused:.

30 pips a day keeps the money at bay, or 15 in this case,:p:p!!!

If I have to choose one or the other I will definitely go for the 98% win rate.

My preference would be to have a mix of both.

From Tymen’s multiple contract strategy, I am guessing (hoping) he will teach us how to use both.

…at least at the open. Wouldn’t I like to have been long the EURUSD!

[U]Would be cool if you could trade like this:[/U]

[B]Trade a nice trend with a really high ProfitTarget (100 pips) and a small StopLoss (10 pips) with a 50/50 win/loose-ratio.[/B]

[B]Trade that trends retracements with a small ProftTarget (15 pips) and a comparatively high StopLoss (10 pips) but therefore a 98/2 win/loose-ratio.[/B]

You would solve the problem that the retracements only cost you time.

That “big trade” could cover the comparatively high losses of the “smaller trades”, SHOULD they produce a loss. (With a 98% chance of winning, they shouldnt)

The “smaller trades” could help covering the 50% “big trade”-loosers.

Only problem is how should one get a 98/2 win/loose-ratio for the retracements?? :confused:

I would now try to take a look at the BollingerBands and find an extreme there. Like when in a BB-Sausage the PriceAction crosses the outer BollingerBand.
Then maybe if it then crosses to the inside again one can expect a retracement coming.

AHA!
And now the PriceAction will go back to the center of the BollingerBand in 98 of 100 cases, haha!!!
No that was just a wild guess. I really dont know how we could get a 98% chance of winning. Maybe some crazy combination of Fibonacci and the BollingerBands. I guess we will see :slight_smile:

Well my first trade using the CBL was on Thursday (I posted a chart of it here on this thread) and it was a long on EU/US

Only I closed it out early and missed out on the 300+ pips profit its now up.:mad:

Well at least it’s a bit of a confidence boost to let the trades run

Everyone knew it was going to happen. Big money bought Euro on open. I sold after big gap open on old timey “gaps usually close some” trade. Flat now. Not fancy, but nice pips. Did tymen say when he’s back? Kinda left us hanging.

But would I trade #2 98% chance to win if the setup only appeared once every three weeks and #1 50/50% setup three times a day. ( He muses to himself).

Wally

Just as a quick note, on MT4 the fib lines are 6 on screen.

The 100% line, four lines, and the 0% line.

I noticed on your screen shots that you have only 4.

Just a note for those of us with MT4.

Red