The problem is GOD yes or no?

The Lobby
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Nothing to be flabbergasted - animals can and sometimes do good - most often that is to safeguard their offspring - a result of evolution which dictates survival of the species.

Humans on the other hand can put their own lives at risk to save an unknown person - this is the human spirit at work - just watched cctv footage of a rail worker dive across rails to save a drunk from an oncoming train - both within inches of death.

There is a verse that references the possibility of other lives - I don’t subscribe to the thinking that Jesus was referring aliens but there are those that do.

Evolution did not begin with the big bang - that was merely a product of what happened before - matter already existed and came together in a format that caused an explosion of energy.
Thus the big bang is actually part of evolution.

His own image: Not a single person has seen God, Moses came closest but best he could see was a burning bush.
So what does God look like - what is His image - how do human resemble Him.

That same word -Spirit applies - we have Spirit - the image and likeness of God - the same Spirit that was breathed into Adam - by God.

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Fear is the opposite of faith - from a bulletin read today in Church:

This phrase, “Have no fear” runs like a refrain through the Gospel,
indeed through the whole Bible. To Abram, God said, “Do not be
afraid, I am your shield.” To the prophets, “Do not be afraid, I am with
you.” To Mary, the angel said, “Do not be afraid.” To the apostles,
Jesus said, “Do not be afraid.” To Paul, the Lord said, “Do not be
afraid.” To all his disciples, Jesus said, “Do not be afraid, little flock”

Fear is about the future - what might happen, usually expresses itself as anxiety, even aggression - what might ppl think, what will go wrong, how can I fix it before it happens.

Faith is about the now.

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The dictionary definition of faith - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something

The dictionary definition of belief - An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

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It was brought up by the OP. There is no one putting a gun to your head, forcing you to read my reply. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why this is so offensive to you? What’s creating the hatred and intolerance for Christians in your heart? You can find it here: John 7:7.

OBTW, I will be telling others about the Gospel in your honor today.

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Faith is not a gift - it is the means by which the gift is given.

The gift is heaven, faith, whether still in the body or after it has died, is the pathway.

To have faith while still alive is a blessing - Thomas wasn’t condemned because he wanted proof - instead “blessed is he who believes but hasn’t got proof”

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Saying yes to happiness means learning to say no to the people and things that hurt you. Be wise enough to walk away from the negativity.

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Well there seems to be a difference of opinion between Christians on this thread as to what faith is. I have been told its a gift, I have been told its not a gift. I think you all know what I think about this…

As far as proof is concerned, although I believe deities are an impossibility, a god who needs to show proof in order to convince his followers they were right to have faith that he existed, is automatically therefore a sham. Anyone can believe anything for which there is proof - but that’s not faith.

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Is there’s proof in anything that was said in this thread or is it evidence

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tommor my friend, who do you feel wants to punish you, I sure don’t, and I have not heard any believer here say you are going to hell or anything like that. Just today my Pastor preach on how God wants us to be a church where people of all races and lifestyles would feel welcome, and that we must learn to love everyone.

I am sorry if anyone has ever hurt you in the name of God, as they clearly were not acting on behalf of the God I know

God sent his son Jesus to save us, not condemn us, I hope you will someday find his love in your life

Best wishes

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Dennis, thanks. I am sure I would be welcome into your church and many like it - if I believe in god and wish to join. But if not, I am damned.

I’m sure nobody in your church is going to come after me with violent intent, but they also acquiesce to the law of the religion, which is that non-believers will be punished. It goes with the territory.

Unless there is after all some way an atheist can get into heaven…

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Hi SovoS

You are going deep here and that is okay, God created the light, but did he also create darkness, is darkness something that can even be created? or is darkness simply the absence of light. I see “good and evil” in the same way, God created good, and evil is the absence of good. We have order in the universe because of God, take away God and you have chaos

I don’t blame God for evil, that is something each of us choices when we move against God.

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I am sorry you feel that way, what is the “law of the religion” No such thing at my church. The way you are describing religion is right out of the middle ages. Things just are not like that today,

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You replied directly to my comment, so of course I’m going to read it. In fact, I reread it to try and wrap my head around how ridiculous you sound.

Because I am not just Atheist, I am Anti-theist, and the whole concept of religion and god(s)/deities repels me. It is the foundation of everything that’s corrupt in this world.
I’m not saying every religious person is bad or corrupt in the least, but just look at the Catholic Church, it is the wealthiest religious group in the world with over $70 billion in assets. I believe that’s where the saying “more money than god” comes from. And as for the reputation of its priests, well…

And that’s just one religious group.

Here’s a verse you might like, from Sphincter 4:20 - “Thou shalt take thy words and stick thee where thy sun is absent”. :wink:

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It was I who said that faith is a gift from god. But I also said that I am not a Christian. I am agnostic and open to the possibility of god and I do study it - but I have never found a personal faith and consider myself an outsider looking in. So I am not a Christian. I see the good and the bad and the possible. But if you really want to know something about Christianity then search the bible for it and not just comments from unknown people on a forum.

The bible says that Jesus confirmed that:

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" John 6:44

and then:

It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him… Acts 3:16

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him Phil 1:29

those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith. 2 Peter 1:1

Well, to me, as an outsider looking in, these references tell me that faith comes from the god and our role is to seek and accept it. In fact, the bible also references many occasions where the god actually deliberately blinds people to faith for various reasons.

So this is enough to convince me that faith is not entirely and uniquely in our own hands at all. And if it is granted from the god then I call that a freebie, a gift (if you like)! :slight_smile:

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I totally agree with you here @MattyMoney. These examples are totally repugnant and all the more so coming from people and institutions that claim to represent god and faith.

But I think it is important to remember that these are precisely that:- institutions and not god itself. Every institution created by humans is tainted with various instances of abuse, misuse, criminal activity, corruption and members seeking their own advantages. And the churches are certainly no exception to this!

The institutions concerned with law and order are a relevant example of this. Does the fact that some entrusted upholders and implementers of law and order such as judges, police officers, etc, abuse their positions, mean that there is no such thing as law and order and that the world would be better off without it?

These terrible and disgusting activities, and the way they are often covered up by the church, are the corruption and abuse of faith and not faith or god itself. In fact, it seems to me, that the bible describes a god who actually shares our opinion on this and is actually himself abhorred by the race he has created :smiley: :

The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. Gen 6:6

The church of the bible’s christ is not any church-defined congregation, it is not a building, nor a human institution. It is the body of believers who are dedicated through love and obedience to christ. The bride of christ. I am not given to be one of those, nor do I know many others who are - but I have seen very many who claim to be and are clearly not as evidenced by their revealing, and often disgraceful, words and deeds.

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I understand what you are saying but, for me anyway, it is not enough to classify all the terrible evil acts in this world as simply the lack of light or the absence of good.

“Evil” is as concrete as “good”. In my world, the opposite of “good” is not “bad”, it is “indifference”. “Bad” is something that exists in its own right and is not just the vacuum due to the absence of “good”

If one claims to be a Christian and believes the bible to be god’s “handbook” then one surely has to accept the devil as much as the god within it. Nowadays, we prefer to just keep the god and sweep the devil under the carpet.

Ultimately, the bible god takes credit for the creation of everything:

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3

So he is ultimately responsible for evil whether it be direct or indirect via the creation of human free will (which is not actually so “free” afterall! :))

Which is why it is so hard to see how a god that apparently created love also created the possibility of hatred and evil that hurts people so badly and stands on the side while it all happens.

Whether we talk of all the killing and maiming in world wars or local battles, organised crime stealing the savings of naive old folk, stealing of babies, sexual abuse, domestic violence, torture, or even natural disasters that totally destroy people’s lives - we can but ask, “Why?” “Where is this god of ours when we need him?”.

The bible claims that the god is a better father than any of us, but if my kids are in any kind of difficulty I am always there for them - and they see it and know it. I don’t see that from the bible god - ever!!! Some will say that it is my own fault because I don’t believe - but god is the one who grants that belief! That is the kind of round circle that destroys the credibility of the bible god for many people.

So, no, I know you mean well, but evil is a lot more than just the absence of light - and it is the bible that tells us that! :slight_smile:

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Keeping to the bible as you did

How Did Suffering Enter Our World?

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, tells of God’s original creation: a perfect world, free of suffering, in which people had a direct relationship with God. God made a good world, but He allowed people to make choices, and the choices they made ultimately ruined it.

Suffering began with people rebelling against God. The book of Genesis tells the story of this first rebellion. God made the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, and gave them the perfect, good world He made. He only gave them one rule:

“You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden — except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die” (Genesis 2:16-17).

The devil, in the form of a serpent, convinced Eve to eat from the tree by persuading her that God was holding out on her. He said, “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil” (Genesis 3:5).

The devil tempted her with the power to be like God, which would enable her to go her own way without trusting God. Adam also chose to eat the fruit, knowing that it was against God’s one command.

When they ate from the tree, Adam and Eve decided to take the power of good and bad into their own hands rather than trust God. Through that choice, humankind broke their relationship with God and brought imperfection into the perfect world He made. God had protected His people from evil and death. But in choosing to step out from under His protection, where they enjoyed eternal life, Adam and Eve brought death and suffering into the world for the first time.

Revelation, the last book of the Bible, tells us about the new creation God will make in the future. One day, God will make everything new and once again perfect and free from suffering. He Himself will live among His people. Even better, this time we will be unable to spoil God’s perfect creation.

Until then, the world will remain in its imperfect state. Our choice is whether to experience life in an imperfect world in relationship with a perfect God or without Him.

https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/life-and-relationships/hardships/why-does-god-allow-suffering.html

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God allowed Satan to appear to Eve in the form of the serpent to test Adam and Eve, and see whether they would be obedient or not. The fact that God allowed for this proves that we have the capacity of choice, we as human beings are capable of choosing to obey God, or not. With this necessary element, we are differentiated from all other beings. Therefore, those who obey and love God do so as a result of choice. We are not forced to love God, and being exposed to good and evil ensures that we remain independent of force. The Lord says, “choose you this day whom ye will serve” (Joshua 24:15).

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Thank you for your post and the links. There is good material there.

I have seen those before and, in particular, the words of C:S Lewis do strike a chord of understanding:

The question of suffering initially prevented the author and Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis from believing in God. But he eventually realized his desire for good and justice actually pointed to the existence of a good and just God. In “Mere Christianity,” he explains, “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”

But that would be fine if we are only talking of a kid stealing candy from a local store. But it is the extent of the horrendous evil in this world and the pain it causes that makes one ask “how can a god allow that to happen to anyone he claims to love?” And it is not just evil from other people, it is also from natural disasters like earthquakes and the suffering from diseases like cancer…

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Thank you, Hopefully, this will answer your questions in your post. Not sure if it can, but I hope it does.

Why does God allow natural disasters?

The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God sometimes influence the weather? Yes, as we see in Deuteronomy 11:17 and James 5:17. Numbers 16:30-34 shows us that God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin. The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.

In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation. Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow a tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why does God allow hurricanes to destroy the homes of thousands of people? For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).

https://www.gotquestions.org/natural-disasters.html

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