Why we need more (good) female traders

Trading Discussion
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Good morning again from here! :smiley:

That’s the sad truth. :frowning: Women are confined to insane standards and stereotypes that supposedly “guide” us in living our lives. :confused: Some people don’t see that these are actually just the society’s scheme to snip our wings and prevent us from maximizing our potentials. :frowning: Women who choose to be blinded by this make the problem even worse. :frowning: It makes it extra hard to stick together and change things.[quote=“PipMeHappy, post:629, topic:63703”]
Also, would you like to write a small blurb here about your experience of being a woman in trading,

and in a trading forum?
[/quote]

I’m a newbie in forex trading and I’m still on demo. I’m really taking my time to learn and get used to everything, which is why I’m really happy to be part of this community! :smiley: It’s really intimidating, tbh (especially during my first few days here).

We have really strong and macho personalities in the community and I thought that I would feel so out of place. :sweat_smile: But thankfully, people have been very nice and helpful! I just hope that there would be more female traders (even newbies like me) who would muster enough courage to talk to you guys here. :slight_smile:

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You just made my day @Falstaff! :blush: :blush: Hahaha. Thank you so much for believing in me! :smiley: I have to say that I’m still soooooo far from being a “legit” trader but you’ve inspired me more to do my best! :smiley: I feel so happy that an experienced trader like you would have this opinion. :blush:

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Forex market is the most diverse market which accepts the traders from all around of the world regardless of their gender, caste, creed, and color. I know many female traders who are quite successful in this field and I appreciate their efforts as well. What do you think guys?

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@jonons Thanks, Jonons. I am going to collate a list of all the female traders/investors/money managers that I have introduced/presented in this thread, so that people can easily navigate its many pages: the list will have links to the
pages of this thread where the names are listed, and where various links can be accessed to know more about them.

This is in part to address the fact that successful women investors/traders DO EXIST but do not get as much media coverage as the usual Tudor Jones, Buffett names. If I had the time I would even do a table of the net worth (in $) of each top male/female investor, just to check if the higher praise and coverage afforded to the male side was justified or whether due to the usual biases that we place on the “successful investor = male” equation.

In the meantime, enjoy the weekend.

PipMeHappy

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@ria_rose

Thank you for that, Ria.

You are one of a handful of female traders who posted on this thread, so it is all the more appreciated.

Too many women get intimidated by a hostile forum environment, and this cycle seems hard to break:

the less women appear on forum the more the few ones who do appear will get pounced on… The 'strength

in numbers’ argument would really work in their favour, but at the moment this is not happening.

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I have to say that seems a little disingenuous PMH, I haven’t noticed anyone “pouncing on” @ria_rose, or anyone else.

Perhaps the women who trade just don’t want to feel they “Need protecting” and therefore do not contribute to this thread ?

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there is nither female nor male

this world needs to graduate, grow up from its female and male perception

But there are emotions and feelings & any trader who welcomes the right combination of these into their phyco discovered their holy grail…

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The best thing about an internet forum is that anyone can post an opinion on any topic at any time.

The worst thing about an internet forum is that any damn fool can post any sort of foolishness on any topic under the sun, whether they know what they’re talking about, or not – as illustrated by the previous post.

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Jeez is some pissed?? Point blank Am never the quote above.

Take it or leave it, one of the major difference between a female and male body garment is the reproductive organs…

That aside it the same emotions and feelings that Animates both garment…

Think of any emotion a female can express that a male can’t?? bye

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@Falstaff You are right about that; my comment was a sad reflection on activity in a variety of forum enivonments, and in the wider digital world too.

The torrent of vile se*ual comments and rape threats suffered by any girl/woman with a noticeable presence on YouTube, Twitter or other media is so sickening.

This is what puts women off forums or speaking up.

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PipMeHappy, have you done a research about Japanese carry traders? i´d like to read about this kind of female traders?

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Can human knowledge, understanding or wisdom be separated by gender?

When we grieve, are afraid or hurt, can the feeling be gendered?

When we hope, are filled with joy, can it be divided?

Imagine to meet a person and to look into their eyes and know that those eyes reflect everything there is to know - would I first think whether male or female, could I even know?

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I’m not sure @PipMeHappy.

We know there are girls / women who attend the site - I have noticed you invite a few to contribute here. At least one was a highly educated lady with science qualifications.

Yet they do not come and play this “I’m being picked on for being female” game.

You attribute this to a “Lack of speaking up…” and therefore as an affirmation of your position that women are weak and need “protecting”.

I invite you to back that assessment up with actual evidence please ?

I wonder whether this patronising attitude in itself, together with even the title of the thread may be a contributing factor ?

Bright people wanting to trade and to just get on with learning and trading. Why should they put themselves into a position where they feel they are starting off their careers in their trading journey as some sort of inferior being who is regarded as being “In need of protection” ?

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Hello @Kamajafx , no I did not, but I did post about this topic on this thread,

here: https://forums.babypips.com/t/why-we-need-more-good-female-traders/63703/570?u=pipmehappy

Is this close enough to what you were asking about?

Regards

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@Falstaff

thanks for this.

Unfortunately I am not a researcher specialising in gender studies, but a lot of evidence-based research in the public domain in the field of sexual or other harassment toward women on forums is qualitative in nature, because you cannot easily quantify the impact of someone faced with a hostile environment.

The point is this: women who do not want to be labelled as ‘women’ but just be on these forums without being singled out can already do that. The point is that even across the Babypips forums as a whole you do not find many women, so they are not participating.

Women users that have contacted me privately have sometimes mentioned that the forums are an unfriendly environment and they prefer to watch from a distance, reading rather than contributing; also, they have a far less inflated opinion of themselves as ‘traders’, where male users often tend to have opinions about everything but actually know very little.

As this thread shows, there is a lot of research done on the lack of women in corporate, high-end roles: we cannot all agree on what this means (good or bad, if you want to put it extremely simply), but if there is a lack of women voices even on a forum, it is a mirror to what happens away from the forums, and that is lack of women voices in a public sphere.

So my argument is a broad one but also a specific one based on a lot of instances of negative behaviours that we all should condemn.

In the end, there is a distinct lack of progress in creating a cultural shift toward a diverse economy, because as soon
as we move to situations where power is a recognisable part of a job, women gradually disappear. Oftentimes, this is not because they are not qualified, but because they are simply not picked by ‘the boys’ who run a particular organisation. Women have tried very hard to adapt to male corporate mentality, but they are still not judged on merit but on gender. So we cannot have it both ways: say that women should work for their career position, yet when they get there justify the cyclical dearth of opportunities by saying ‘maybe they did not earn it’.

Truth is, men speak over women everywhere: socially, in schools, on televised debates… The argument that ‘if you cannot get the heat, you should get out’ does not cut it either: where is a schoolgirl trying to speak and being drowned by boys’ voices going to go? She will try twice, and keep her hand down the third. The same goes for quiet boys, of course… and that is an equally valid thread… And there are girls bullying girls too, so this is not some sort of depiction of women and girls as all-perfect, angelic beings who never do ill: on the contrary, we must not - as you say - put women on a pedestal and worship them. We must judge them on merit, but…do we really?

Study after study (just Google the topic, it is easy to access resources) shows that on faced with CVs mainly containing scientific/technical experience, most men and women assume the candidate to be male; or, that when a male name is shown on a woman’s CV it is picked as preferable to one with a female name, where they are of equal worth.Unconscious biases are not just a buzzword but something that we all have to question: we often jump to conclusion about someone based on our own biases, without actually objectively considering their true nature.

Unconscious biases are what allow us to make quick decisions every day in our life, so most of the time they are useful tools that our brain uses to save us time: we do not have to think why a key opens a door, because we know that it works - we do not have to question it. However, when we see someone who is different from ourselves, we experience an unconscious reaction that is not always based on reality but on imagined fears or on assumptions about that person based on their gender, ethnicity, looks, age, and so on… The person getting up for someone with white hair on the train; the person making a comment about a woman’s appearance on the street; the person crossing the street as two ethnic minority men come toward them on a quiet street: all these are unconscious behaviours that society normalises but that are often based on lack of respect, on prejudice, or on paternalism.

So that is where I come from… It may not chime with everyone here, but I will live with that.

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Sorry, I thought you had some knowledge in this area

.[quote=“PipMeHappy, post:659, topic:63703”]
because you cannot easily quantify the impact of someone faced with a hostile environment.
[/quote]

Perhaps if you have a subsection of the UK popluation where one member is committing suicide every 4 hour day in - day out, it might give some indication of a “quantative measure” ?

Yes - that traditionally was the perceived “role” of women - apparently leaving the role of “Breadwinner” to the male - but there is an old saying “Behind every great man, is a great woman” - The truth is that women have ALWAYS been strong and have usually “Run the home” - yes they may have allowed men to harbour the illusion that they were “Head of the household”, but in actuallity, very few actually were !

Women were rarely “Headline bosses”, but woe-betide anyone who uspet the “Boss’s secretary” ! OR who sleighted a man’s wife !

Women developed and were taught by their mothers to be brilliant “Manipulators” and thrived in the role of “Victim” in "The Drama triangle.

Those pm’s you received, are prime examples perhaps of women not wanting to give up that position ?

I had not realised that you are significantly younger and as such, have had little opportunity to see women excell in that role. Perhaps I can commend a couple of books for your perusal ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mars-Women-Venus-Communication-Relationships/dp/0007152590/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527545244&sr=1-1&keywords=men+mars+women+venus

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Games-People-Play-Psychology-Relationships/dp/0241257476/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527544223&sr=1-1&keywords=games+people+play+eric+berne

This latter contains some interesting games, such as “Rapo” and “Little Red Riding hood” together with an explanation of the role many men choose to occupy - that of “Rescuer”, (The Drama triangle is a little hard to get your head around, and Berne actually neglects to call it that or to explain the insidious nature of the game, where there is a tendency for “Rescuer” to become “Victim” and “Victim” to turn into “Abuser” :confused: )

There are also a good many instances of “Girls” “Bullying Men” as well, and female to male physical and mental abuse is hugely under-reported and also “laughed off” by society as a whole.

I don’t suppose anything I have said will help you to see the real picture in all it’s sad intricacy, but perhaps if you do manage to read those two books, it may help to help at some later stage in your life.

All the very best :slight_smile:

F

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@Falstaff

Thank you for taking the time to write all that you have written, and for the book suggestions. I am very choosy about reading as I barely have time for my pile of unread books at the moment… But it is appreciated nonetheless…

Feminist academic and author Camille Paglia and public speaker and academic Jackson Katz are some of those who are consistently talking about the forgotten boys and men who get a rough deal, who become trapped in fulfilling damaging stereotypes for lack of any better alternative… Katz asks: what is ‘manhood’? And, where are male teachers in primary schools? Role models for boys at an early age are absent from the classroom; later on, they will be coming in at school but, by then, a lot of adverts will have come into the boys’ psyche, full of men being inept dads or just silent, suited car drivers who never speak and look untouchable. These are perpetuated but there is no storyline as to how a boy should get happiness from such power-hungry, emotionless state of manhood or from being so desperately inept when mummy leaves the room as to frankly put off anyone watching the ad from ever wanting to be a father.

Camille Paglia talks about the work that men do: they are out repairing power lines in the storms; they collect the bins outside our homes; they plough and work the land to feed thousands; they are home- and bridge-builders; they are loggers and woodsmen whose work gives us furniture, firewood, and joinery timber. Why do we bash them so? Who else will do those jobs?

The misunderstanding, if I may call it that, is that these questions and comments/positions are opposed/contrary to those that affirm positive action against men’s violence/harassment toward women: there is absolutely a problem with boys’ underperforming in schools AND working-class boys not getting the best out of the job market, but there is also a problem with boys’ rape and violence toward girls, and men’s rape and violence toward women and children.

So we should help and condemn boys and men for behaving with a lack of respect and humanity when they do bad things, and this has nothing to do with pigeon-holing women into the ‘damsel in distress’ role that we so often see replicated in the media/films. I totally agree with you about that being a negative, reductive stereotype of womanhood, and I could add that the recent craze about the Royal Wedding is once again perpetuating the myth to thousands of impressionable girls that to fulfill yourself as a woman you just have to be a princess dressed in virginal white and be ‘rescued’ by a handsome, powerful man. It is so archaic that if we did not take it with a pinch of salt we should immediately call for this kind of stuff to be consigned to the bin of history.

Good to talk with you, Falstaff, as always - I mean it.

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It’s odd how the mind works - I got to thinking about the differences between our (PMH and my) early lives and the things which influenced us as adolescents / early adults.

Here is a little ditty which had a huge impact on my early life. I had just passed my degree and returned home to find my long-term Fiancee had cleared off with my best mate - whom I had “Rescued” (you see I was a “Rescuer” - too, but in those days we "Rescued individuals, not “whole demographics” or “Planets” :wink: ) when this became popular, so I went there to work for a couple of years, to find out whether it was true or not ?

As it 'appens, it was !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6zQPc_mR_8

My point really is that This Guy was a great raconteur and you may wish to listen to a little of his “Live in Buxton” or his “Xmas turkey”, to actually see what life was like for us “Growing up”

we didn’t have Internet of course and phones were certainly invented, but not every family could afford one - or even felt the need to have one.

There was certainly nobody stuffing “Guilt” down our throats from morning 'til night - No “Shoulds” preached to us every day, and if some couple wanted to get married - well they just “Did it” - but we were the first Generation where "You didn’t HAVE TO ! "

How could we foresee that our bid for freedom for everyone would end up in “Freedom for no-one” as it has !

Maybe I’ll come back and take another look at this thread later. We’ll see ! :slight_smile:

[Edit - Perhaps I could mention that the “Local Temperance Bar” was actually “Yates’s Wine Lodge” which actually did have a bare board floor, although I don’t remember any sawdust, but it genuinely Did have spittoons and closed at 9pm. Conversation with the landlord revealed that it had two doors on separate Streets, so that If Aggression came in one door, the potential victims could run out of the other ! ]

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@Falstaff Ah, Rochdale, what a classic… I lived in various W. Riding places for a few years, mainly the Leeds -Huddersfield-Halifax triangle, and that song you posted could have easily been fit for most small towns, villages, and hamlets: most of them forgotten former mill towns (Morley, Batley, etc.) and now just commuter dwellings for Leeds workers. This is the problem with single-industry economies: they are not diversified enough to sustain an industry collapse. just like for financial traders who put all their eggs in one basket.

I am sorry to hear about your experience… It is very true that our beliefs and weltanschauung , our view of the world, are shaped by our lives… As a son of parents from the so-called ‘68 generation, who campaigned for basic rights (divorce, abortion, etc.) I certainly appreciate what you mentioned, namely that they suddenly felt free not to conform, at least while the squares and universities were filled with young people demanding change; however, once those Baez and Dylan songs had left the airwaves, things returned to some sort of grey conformity, which left a few of my parents’ generation feeling that maybe the promise of change was not quite delivered.

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NN Taleb says that we will basically live our lives within certain boundaries and that “the child of a dentist” will probably achieve a similar outlook on life and a similar income level to that of our parents - it is possible to “underachieve” this in a “Normal” sort of way, but to break out upwardly, is unlikely without the intervention of a “Black Swan Event”

Transactional Analysists take this significantly further (Berne was the “Father” of TA) saying we live our lives by a Script which we learn from our “Parents” - by the time we are 7 ! (The Jesuits said “Give me a child until he is seven, I will give you the man !”)

M Scott Peck in his teachings from “The Road Less Traveled” says that he mat a lot of people with and was zmazed to find that those from happy empowereing homes had a view of life that the world was a lovely place and could not wait to leave home, whereas those from abusive dysfunctional homes had a view that the world was a dangerous place and delayed leaving home for much longer.

WHat happens when we become involved in circumstances as “semi-adult” is that our responses are conditional upon the Script we carry with us.

There are many unbelievably powerful life instructions we carry with us without ever recognising them.

Scripts contain many instructions and injunctions - here are some I found on t’interweb

"…Our chosen life position is based on the encouraging or disparaging pattern of strokes we received from our parents (and others).

Parental teaching often happens at an unconscious level: when parents are excited by and approve a child’s behaviour, the messages they give are often permissions; however, when parents feel threatened by a child’s behaviour, the messages expressed are often injunctions.

Permissions are just as the word implies - giving the child permission to do something. For example, “Do think”; “Do ask for what you want”. They are the opposite of injunctions.

Injunctions are prohibitions or negative commands from a parent (often outside their awareness) and come from the parents’ Child ego state (the scared or angry Child ego state). They are expressions of disappointment, frustration, anxiety and unhappiness which come out of the parent’s own pain.

Injunctions establish the “don’ts” by which children learn to live. These messages are predominantly given nonverbally and at the psychological level between birth and seven years of age. Injunctions include:

“Don’t”
“Don’t be”
“Don’t belong”
“Don’t be a child”
“Don’t be close”
“Don’t be sane”
“Don’t feel”
“Don’t grow up”
“Don’t need”
“Don’t be separate from me”
“Don’t be the sex you are”
“Don’t succeed”
“Don’t think”
“Don’t want”
“Don’t be well”
“Don’t be you”

_The child responds to these injunctions and makes a script decision. It is the negative script decisions which will possibly cause difficulty later in life…"

http://www.clairenewton.co.za/my-articles/transactional-analysis-part-iii-the-scripts-we-follow.html

As children, we make certain decisions based on our experiences. You may remember making some of those decisions ? I had a great deal of discussion once upon a time with an Australian Lady of my own age, who had decided as a girl, that the world was a dreadful place and it would not be fair to bring children into it !

Often the decisions are something like "I won’t treat my own children like this …! "

Speaking of Trading, If you visit some of Anton Kreils stuff - he speaks of “The Narrative” (Script) and he also advocates “Making your own decisions as to what to trade and when” - (ie DO Think ! ) Maybe his stuff will not directly make our “Binary Ttades” positive, but I do see some evidence that Female “Trader / Investors” are rather better at that aspect than we males might be !

(His 3 tv Programmes made for BBC are particularly instructive in “How Professionals trade” )

SO now back to “the real world” - or at least what is currently perceived as such. We can see evidence of a number of “Games” which are dominating current communications ;

"Ain’t it Awful ? "

http://www.opost.com/dlm/blog/2012/05/11/playing-aint-it-awful/

https://newsblaze.com/thoughts/opinions/ain-t-it-awful_13811/

The Drama Triangle ;

This is not definitive, but Karpman himself recognises it’s thoughfulness and seems approving;

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

My suggestion is that this thread and many of it’s submissions are based on “Drama Triangle” positions, wherein some of the participants can be seen to “Switch positions” !

I would ask you to take a look at it and see if you can see where I am coming from ?

Perhaps we can even agree that the tenets of this game are seeming to be present in this thread ?

Then there is one of the traditional Response of “Victim” to attempts to rescue “Her”

“Why don’t you ? - yes but…”

A good "Player is reputed to be able to kepp six or more “Rescuers” at bay for several hours at parties, until they “Wander off” ;

Food for thought there mate ?

Unfortunately we already have an indication ;

For the sake of your little one, I ask you to perhaps revisit that decision ?

Here is another great book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scripts-People-Live-Transactional-Analysis/dp/0802132103/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527766319&sr=1-1&keywords=scripts+people+live

Perhaps take a look inside ?

All the best

F

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