Are you REALLY committed to trading?

[SimonTemplar]

If you want the notoriety, put in the work like Michael did.

Don’t have the desire to go to that length for a noob? Now you are starting to see what Michael brings to the table, that has you hot-air experts all pissy.

It’s called DEDICATION… and despite your words of best intent, you don’t have it in the same capacity Michael does. Otherwise you would have done it already, no? I don’t have that dedication either, but then again I have no desire to teach. Besides, what’s the point when ICT lays it all out for you already

I don’t think that anyone is knocking what ICT does, there are just some dissenting voices saying that his teachings risk taking over the whole site, permeating too many threads, so the balance has gone. It is like a clique in the office, school, wherever - those of us who aren’t followers are on the outside and find it odd that it is basically impossible to avoid the chat and backslapping that surrounds his work. I don’t think that Toekan was saying that s/he wants to get the notoriety, I read the post more as an acknowledgement that there is a big market for what ICT offers.

Personally, I am not ‘pissy’ that a load of people love ICT, or that he has a popular thread, or any of that - I just personally don’t see why so many threads have to contain references/eulogies, including threads that aren’t even remotely relevant to his work (for example PPF popping up in a thread on training courses yesterday potshotting on behalf of ICT). Between that and ICT seemingly believing that he is the principal reason most people are attracted to BP it’s all just a bit much. If it were handled more like the previous gurus, ie. a thread where the followers hang out and do their thing then I (and presumably those who agree with me) wouldn’t mention ICT from one week to the next and the site could return to the happy state it had previously.

There is the Trader’s Arms 2nd Floor thread, for example, hosted by HoG. There is no guru, there, but the vibe can be similar in that it is a regular crew of posters who enjoy the thread, swap trading thoughts, posts charts, chat about in jokes, whatever - we enjoy it, and as we keep it mostly to the thread I think it’s positive that the thread exists for any who want to participate. If, however, we were to take it site-wide, pushing it at anyone who would listen, making constant references to it, and each time one of us popped up a few of our regular supporters piled in behind us, I imagine that we would start to wind up other site members who just weren’t into it, and we would all begin to look a little cliquey - which in my opinion is where we suddenly are with ICT’s group. Between his sticky, his millionaire traders thread, his Christmas present thread, various of his followers hosting their own sub-threads, the odd thank you for saving me ICT thread, persistent and constant exhortations for any new site member, and some of you (particularly PPF!) telling us that we’re basically missing the whole point of trading if we don’t join the club it’s all getting a bit much.

You can put the word ‘dedication’ in caps as much as you want, but that’s not what we’re saying, we’re not knocking ICT’s methods or his presence on the forum: as ever with life, how something is done is as important as what is done.

And please don’t assume that noone else helps rookie traders around here - I put in several hours a week responding to requests for coaching, assistance, advice etc on a range of aspects of trading, and I offer what help I can including detailed charts, feedback and explanation. I just do it via PM and email on a one-to-one basis as my own view is that we’re all different and will need particular help with different aspects of trading, plus will all need slightly different styles. Just because some of us are less showy than others, please don’t assume that ICT is the only one putting significant time into helping other traders. Some of us just don’t do it publicly, so don’t build a brand at the same time. Some of the sweeping statements and generalizations coming out of the ICT crew are contributing to the recent ‘them and us’ feel to BP, sadly.

Please don’t think I’m falling out with you - this is just important stuff and I want to be clear that we all understand one another. The stakes are pretty high here - a number of experienced members are considering their future at BP, looking at alternative fora, which would be a shame - so I think it important that if the two tribes are going to discuss this then we do it from a position of mutual understanding. So please take this post in the spirit intended!

Simon

[Toekan]

Remarks from akeakamai proof that we are on the right path! Our guru had also people that were against him!

I’d say that there is no better day to start than today! The Maya’s predicted the start of a new era, with a lot of changes! They were talking about US! Let us value their prediction and act on this Omen! Let us change BP!

Come on fellow Honorary guys and Gals! To the battlefield! Let us go to the PUB!

[ukdave]

So you are going to resign from your post as Guardian of babypips?? Man, that would be a shame.

I am not in a crew, I am not in a tribe, I am not a cult follower. I watched his videos and copied his tools and talk about them sometimes. That’s it. You’re the one that says “we” a lot. I like to say I a lot. Not cause I think I’m important, but because I can’t speak or think for other traders… all I know is me

Yes, I was in at the beginning of the ‘What every new or aspiring…’ thread a couple of years ago, as I think you were too? At the time I’d only recently completed the Babypips school and I did learn an awful lot from that thread and Michael’s videos. Those first presentations on mental approach, money management, basics of support/resistance and so on should - I think - be required viewing for any novice trader. So thanks ICT. You’ve given a lot to this place and helped many people on their way.

However, I am also one of the ‘we’ that ST talks of. I don’t think he has come across as a would-be guardian of the forum at all. Just aired a concern that is shared by others. His post above sets this out more eloquently than I could, so I won’t say any more about it.

And really, when you look into the 2012-2013 series thread, wouldn’t you agree that much of it has become a case of ‘the blind leading the blind’? Relative newbies to the methods guiding other newbies, telling them that all they need to know are one or two elements without any contextual background and getting it horribly wrong? Shouting about how this or that alone can make you $thousands, yet have only been using the techniques on demo for a few weeks?

The fact that the main ICT thread has been so derailed is perhaps the biggest irony of all.

[ukdave]

Let us go to the PUB!

That sounds like one great idea.

[SimonTemplar]

So you are going to resign from your post as Guardian of babypips?? Man, that would be a shame.

I am not in a crew, I am not in a tribe, I am not a cult follower. I watched his videos and copied his tools and talk about them sometimes. That’s it. You’re the one that says “we” a lot. I like to say I a lot. Not cause I think I’m important, but because I can’t speak or think for other traders… all I know is me

Nice.

Ftr I didn’t call you a cult follower, I called you a follower as in a follower of ICT’s stuff, just as I am a follower of HoG’s thread - it is not and was not mean as a pejorative term, but I am sorry if it came across that way.

Crew is simply a UK shorthand, slang for a group who hang out and chat about the same stuff, I am part of the Trader’s Arms crew in the same way, HoG often calls us ‘gang’ with the same meaning. Again, it was not intended to be pejorative.

Tribe was, again, simply a shorthand to distinguish the two sides of this discussion, and again was not intended critically. I form part of the tribe that is unhappy with the current balance of the site, that was all I meant.

Perhaps those three terms don’t translate equally both sides of the Atlantic, perhaps you just disagree with whatever I say as a default setting, these days. Whichever it is, I am sorry if the words I used came across poorly and divisively, as they were intended as anything but.

Just to correct one falsehood in your post: I actually used the word ‘I’ exclusively in my first two paragraphs. Then in the third para I was clearly discussing the Trader’s Arms thread, so used ‘we’ to describe the regular participants in that thread, not as some wider implication of ‘them and us’.

I then used the sentence ‘You can put the word ‘dedication’ in caps as much as you want, but that’s not what we’re saying, we’re not knocking ICT’s methods or his presence on the forum: as ever with life, how something is done is as important as what is done’ - ‘we’ on that occasion was simply a coverall for the various posts in this particular thread that express idea similar to mine, such as that by UKDave which followed yours. Again, a local shorthand to describe what is going on in this thread, not a wider accusation.

For my final two paragraphs I was back to ‘I’, as I was again making the more generic point, so made it on my own behalf only.

So I really think that an accusation that you use ‘I’ whereas I use ‘we’ is unfair, indeed inaccurate.

You have always seemed an intelligent guy, Akeakamai, so please don’t let any preformed opinion you have of me colour your reading of what I intended as a constructive, non-aggressive post.

Simon

[NorwoodFX]

Yes I am. And I was looking for a forum where serious traders are. Not those silly forums where some members claim that this entire Forex thing is a scam. If that was the case, I’d question my life, because it might be just another scam too.

“A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining, but wants it back the minute it begins to rain.”
-Mark Twain.

[The_Home_Of_Golf]

I wouldn’t mind to participate in such a live channel and share my xp. It is actually something I was looking for when I came to BP. Interaction with traders as there numbers around me are slim to none.

Ok then, the hunt to find, or create such a thing, is officially on !!

[The_Home_Of_Golf]

I don’t think that anyone is knocking what ICT does, there are just some dissenting voices saying that his teachings risk taking over the whole site, permeating too many threads, so the balance has gone. It is like a clique in the office, school, wherever - those of us who aren’t followers are on the outside and find it odd that it is basically impossible to avoid the chat and backslapping that surrounds his work. I don’t think that Toekan was saying that s/he wants to get the notoriety, I read the post more as an acknowledgement that there is a big market for what ICT offers.

Personally, I am not ‘pissy’ that a load of people love ICT, or that he has a popular thread, or any of that - I just personally don’t see why so many threads have to contain references/eulogies, including threads that aren’t even remotely relevant to his work (for example PPF popping up in a thread on training courses yesterday potshotting on behalf of ICT). Between that and ICT seemingly believing that he is the principal reason most people are attracted to BP it’s all just a bit much. If it were handled more like the previous gurus, ie. a thread where the followers hang out and do their thing then I (and presumably those who agree with me) wouldn’t mention ICT from one week to the next and the site could return to the happy state it had previously.

There is the Trader’s Arms 2nd Floor thread, for example, hosted by HoG. There is no guru, there, but the vibe can be similar in that it is a regular crew of posters who enjoy the thread, swap trading thoughts, posts charts, chat about in jokes, whatever - we enjoy it, and as we keep it mostly to the thread I think it’s positive that the thread exists for any who want to participate. If, however, we were to take it site-wide, pushing it at anyone who would listen, making constant references to it, and each time one of us popped up a few of our regular supporters piled in behind us, I imagine that we would start to wind up other site members who just weren’t into it, and we would all begin to look a little cliquey - which in my opinion is where we suddenly are with ICT’s group. Between his sticky, his millionaire traders thread, his Christmas present thread, various of his followers hosting their own sub-threads, the odd thank you for saving me ICT thread, persistent and constant exhortations for any new site member, and some of you (particularly PPF!) telling us that we’re basically missing the whole point of trading if we don’t join the club it’s all getting a bit much.

You can put the word ‘dedication’ in caps as much as you want, but that’s not what we’re saying, we’re not knocking ICT’s methods or his presence on the forum: as ever with life, how something is done is as important as what is done.

And please don’t assume that noone else helps rookie traders around here - I put in several hours a week responding to requests for coaching, assistance, advice etc on a range of aspects of trading, and I offer what help I can including detailed charts, feedback and explanation. I just do it via PM and email on a one-to-one basis as my own view is that we’re all different and will need particular help with different aspects of trading, plus will all need slightly different styles. Just because some of us are less showy than others, please don’t assume that ICT is the only one putting significant time into helping other traders. Some of us just don’t do it publicly, so don’t build a brand at the same time. Some of the sweeping statements and generalizations coming out of the ICT crew are contributing to the recent ‘them and us’ feel to BP, sadly.

Please don’t think I’m falling out with you - this is just important stuff and I want to be clear that we all understand one another. The stakes are pretty high here - a number of experienced members are considering their future at BP, looking at alternative fora, which would be a shame - so I think it important that if the two tribes are going to discuss this then we do it from a position of mutual understanding. So please take this post in the spirit intended!

Simon

Felt the “like” button wasn’t sufficient in this case.

WELL SAID THAT MAN !!

[piptronix]

The Purple one has everyone on a string.
He started this thread as a jibe, a reaction to what was happening in another thread. He wanted to piss everyone off, he was probably drunk at the time. It should have been ignored, but instead has come to this. You guys all took the bait and now he’s laughing.
I also learned from ICT, but I moved on from there, and I also see the point you guys are trying to make, the praise outside of the main threads is just too much. So I just ignore it. It’s really not that hard.
When you focus your attention too much on what annoys you, it actually grows. The more you think about it, the worse it gets. And I don’t care what the psycho-analysts tell you, the more you talk about it, the more it grows too. Imagine what happens if you start a thread about it. lol

What I’m saying is, maybe we need a bit more tolerance around here, isn’t that the grown up thing to do? Think about it, what is the solution here? Nothing, we can’t ask the mods to shut them up. So if there is no solution, all we are doing is feeding the problem by talking about it for 2 days non stop. To me the real problem is that there are no interesting threads on any discussion whatsoever, if there were then maybe the silly ones would be more bearable.

I blame HOG!!! He hasn’t updated his thread for the last week, so now we are all bored …lol

Just one more thing, everyone says that this is nothing against ICT, but seriously, don’t you think he’s reading, and how do you think he feels seeing his name mentioned in a not so positive context? Before any of you reply, don’t put me into any camp, crew, whatever you want to call it. I speak as a developing trader, and I see the walls of my school slowly dissolving.

Lets move on from this.

[SimonTemplar]

The Purple one has everyone on a string.
He started this thread as a jibe, a reaction to what was happening in another thread. He wanted to piss everyone off, he was probably drunk at the time. It should have been ignored, but instead has come to this. You guys all took the bait and now he’s laughing.

Agreed, but it happened to touch on an issue that some had been thinking about raising for a little while. But yes, guilty as charged, I struggle to resist biting when PPF keeps pressing. It’s a character flaw, sorry.

To me the real problem is that there are no interesting threads on any discussion whatsoever, if there were then maybe the silly ones would be more bearable.

It’s always like this at this time of year - many of us have finished actively trading, so the random threads get more prominence. It’ll all settle down post-Christmas, I expect.

Just one more thing, everyone says that this is nothing against ICT, but seriously, don’t you think he’s reading, and how do you think he feels seeing his name mentioned in a not so positive context?

ICT alludes to his feelings on some of it in post 42 of this thread: 301 Moved Permanently

[piptronix]

Sorry Simon, but I’m too lazy to multi-quote, so I’ll just respond to the whole thing.
So basically this whole thing is nothing? This is just an innocent thread and it will all blow over after Christmas?
I think you are right, maybe this is how we fill the need for interesting discussion. I wonder what they do in prison, ok don’t answer that. LOL
EDIT, I read that post by ICT, and I’m not convinced that he is unaffected by all of this.

Agreed, but it happened to touch on an issue that some had been thinking about raising for a little while. But yes, guilty as charged, I struggle to resist biting when PPF keeps pressing. It’s a character flaw, sorry.

It’s always like this at this time of year - many of us have finished actively trading, so the random threads get more prominence. It’ll all settle down post-Christmas, I expect.

ICT alludes to his feelings on some of it in post 42 of this thread: 301 Moved Permanently

[SimonTemplar]

Sorry Simon, but I’m too lazy to multi-quote, so I’ll just respond to the whole thing.
So basically this whole thing is nothing? This is just an innocent thread and it will all blow over after Christmas?
I think you are right, maybe this is how we fill the need for interesting discussion. I wonder what they do in prison, ok don’t answer that. LOL

Lol. I don’t think that it is nothing - I personally think that it is an important issue for the site, and stand by my posts on it, I would have made them at any time of year - but think rather that the issue has gained more prominence than it might have at another time of year as there are very few alternative threads this week.

[ukdave]

Ok then, the hunt to find, or create such a thing, is officially on !!

I’ve actually been thinking quite a lot about this over the last day or two HOG. (Yes, I know you think I post nothing but useless garbage and in the main, that’s absolutely true. But hey-ho, it’s nearly the end of the world, so here goes.)

Well, we have a forum right here. All we need is a thread. The problem I find with threads that are just about trading generally is that they get unfocused. People trade different pairs using different systems and it can all feel like a bit of a mish-mash. So maybe concentrate on one pair only (the bobmaninc?) Follow it through the trending times and the ranging times. Analyse the bias, do some of that funky multi-timeframe stuff, bring in some trading suggestions. (‘I see it’s in a trend situation now because… so I’m entering here because…’ and so on)

It would need rules though. And they would have to be policed. I know that can be pretty unpopular on an open forum, but otherwise it can soon get infected with all sorts of crap. It’s simply about keeping it all on-topic .

Like trading suggestions need to be backed up with the reasoning behind them. Keep the focus on the process, not how much $ people claim to be making. Stuff like that.

By having something like this to concentrate on, the rest of the forum can bleat on about ICT all it likes. And by just looking at one pair, it might help with developing patience. People won’t be leaping around lots of pairs looking for an entry because they’re desperate to get into the market somehow. There’ll be a fair bit of waiting around, though enough happening to make the thread worth a daily visit.

Anyway look, I’m not suggesting this as the answer. Just throwing it into the mix to kick things off a bit.

[piptronix]

And you should stand by your posts, and the point has been made and I think we all get it. But, what solution do you propose, if any?
This actually boils down to telling people how to behave. We shouldn’t need to do that.
This is a tough one. I’m not being mean or sarcastic, I’m really interested in your thoughts.

Lol. I don’t think that it is nothing - I personally think that it is an important issue for the site, and stand by my posts on it, I would have made them at any time of year - but think rather that the issue has gained more prominence than it might have at another time of year as there are very few alternative threads this week.

[SimonTemplar]

And you should stand by your posts, and the point has been made and I think we all get it. But, what solution do you propose, if any?
This actually boils down to telling people how to behave. We shouldn’t need to do that.
This is a tough one. I’m not being mean or sarcastic, I’m really interested in your thoughts.

That’s fine, I didn’t take it as mean or sarcastic.

I agree that it would be nicer if this side of stuff were self-regulating, and it is a tricky area. And if I come off as too prescriptive then I am also fearful that others will just pop up and criticize me again to be honest.

I don’t have a particular alternative proposal, the site usually works great as it is. For me the ICT stuff has got a bit out of hand, recently, so I just wish it were more limited to one area of the site. ICT seems popular enough to justify his own subforum - or, frankly, his own site altogether - but it is not for me to propose some blanket ruling that fixes a problem, particularly one that many don’t even see as a problem in the first place.

It has just previously always been possible around here to avoid the bits of the site that are out of step with our own individual approaches to trading, and recently that has suddenly not been possible. But I don’t see any way around it other than some individuals knowing how others feel and deciding to be sensitive to that or not, and the result of that process will determine the shape of the site going forwards.

[jamla60]

I really think a sub-forum could, eliminate a majority of the issues and clutter. Will the mods take the initiative ?
Maybe it doesn’t bother them at all. I’m a firm believer in taking care of your own first,and the senior guys shouldn’t be dealt a hand like this, as the saying goes " new brooms sweep clean , but old brooms know all the corners". I’d really like to see the senior members on the forum happy, Babypips is to great of a school to start to crumble like this. So +1 for the forum Name it “ICT Trading development 101” or something like that. I can see these guys advising newbies like myself and the reply is " but ICT said this… ict did this… but ict…I Know it’s not ICT fault, but A should give their kids a little spanking once in a while when their getting out of line.

[KingKaivar]

purplepatch, I give you a 9/10. :35:

[piptronix]

I guess I would feel the same if the Political opinion thread spilled over to the rest of the forum.
That is the one place I avoid for reasons I prefer not to mention, I’ll get seriously flamed. So I do see your point and I hope that in future people will be more respectful now that they are aware of your feelings on this.

Now where’s HOG? lol, its Friday night and I need a drink

That’s fine, I didn’t take it as mean or sarcastic.

I agree that it would be nicer if this side of stuff were self-regulating, and it is a tricky area. And if I come off as too prescriptive then I am also fearful that others will just pop up and criticize me again to be honest.

I don’t have a particular alternative proposal, the site usually works great as it is. For me the ICT stuff has got a bit out of hand, recently, so I just wish it were more limited to one area of the site. ICT seems popular enough to justify his own subforum - or, frankly, his own site altogether - but it is not for me to propose some blanket ruling that fixes a problem, particularly one that many don’t even see as a problem in the first place.

It has just previously always been possible around here to avoid the bits of the site that are out of step with our own individual approaches to trading, and recently that has suddenly not been possible. But I don’t see any way around it other than some individuals knowing how others feel and deciding to be sensitive to that or not, and the result of that process will determine the shape of the site going forwards.

[jamla60]

ICT, if your reading this, it’s not about normal as people get excited and full of hope and encouragement, but what the guys are saying i guess is, when ppl get excited let them destroy their own house and not others, ie keep it all in one thread instead of multiple sub-forums and threads everyday. I myself am guilty of this and to the older members i apologise.

[SimonTemplar]

I guess I would feel the same if the Political opinion thread spilled over to the rest of the forum.
That is the one place I avoid for reasons I prefer not to mention, I’ll get seriously flamed. So I do see your point and I hope that in future people will be more respectful now that they are aware of your feelings on this.

Now where’s HOG? lol, its Friday night and I need a drink

Quite. And I’m afraid it’s only lunchtime here, so even in Glasgow that’s a little early for a working man!