Beginner's Disaster!

Desmond,

First of all let me say thank you for the reply you wrote. I enjoyed reading it and it reaffirmed my reasons for getting into Forex in the first place. But let me start from the beginning of your reply.

I totally accept that “in the grand scheme of things” , 15k could probably be considered an acceptable price for an education. That is, as long as you ARE learning. But 15k to continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, I don’t believe, is an education. That’s just throwing money away.

You are correct though, that here, in this community, our greatest assets are each other. That is why I asked akeakamai to give the details of their last trade, so that hopefully one of us, or even better, several of us, can tell akeakamai, " No look, this is where you went wrong. Why don’t you try this… Or do this…" That’s surely the primary goal of a Forum no ?

You also wrote that each one of us should take some time to examine our goals and motivations. Well, as I said at the start, I have always known my reasons for getting into Forex, right from the start.

I am a cab driver in Glasgow, Scotland, have been for the last 9 years. I work 75 hours a week, every week. ( honestly ) I have two lovely daughters. ( 14 and 6 ). Before I started driving a cab, I drove trucks for a small company just outside Glasgow. I didn’t make a lot of money, but I only worked 39 hours a week. This gave me plenty of time to spend with my wife and only daughter, ( at the time ) on the weekends. But, as I said, we had plenty of time, but not much money to do things.

Then I made the switch to being a cab driver, and the weekly amount of money I made, more than trebled. This was great at the start. 3 times your cash, can’t be bad. So we used this bigger wage to “buy” a better quality of life. We bought a bigger house, bought a better car etc. Then my youngest daughter was born.

But here’s the trade off, all of a sudden, you realise that now you are in a position where you NEED that bigger wage to pay the now BIGGER lifestyle. So you need to work more hours, and as you do, you begin to spend less and less time with your family. I’ve always felt sorry in a way for my youngest child because she probably hasn’t had the time spent on her that my oldest daughter had.

So this is why I got into Forex in the first place. Sure I want to make money. But the BIGGEST thing I want to make is TIME. Because as my kids grow by the day, I see my TIME with them disappearing by the day.

My intention, goal, ambition, whatever anybody wants to call it, is to replace my current wage, maybe even increase it some, so that I can spend more time with the girls and my wife. I don’t hanker after extreme financial wealth, because there is a better wealth out there to be had, and money only has a small part to play in it.

But I think you gave excellent advice. Everyone should know their objectives from the outset, and trade to those objectives. Anything more is a bonus, a welcome bonus granted, but keeping your objectives clearly in the forefront of your mind, will help your trading decisions no end !!

Thanks again for your insightful reply.
HoG

So you’ve convinced yourself that you ARE capable of doing this Forex thing, you’re brimming with confidence, eager as hell to get started and now you stand completely naked ( metaphorically speaking hopefully ! ) at the gates of Forexland. What now ?

What do I do now ? First things first, you open a demo account and reduce the providers pretend $50,000 to rubble in no time. No worries, give it another go. Sure enough, the same armageddon that consumed your first demo, sends it’s plague of locusts to similarly destroy your second.

It’s right about now that the first seeds of doubt start creeping into your mind and you even briefly consider giving this up and trying to sell stuff on ebay to make your living.

You can’t understand it. Price of the Euro Dollar was going up, but the very second you hit the “BUY” button, the price went down. So you cancelled that, took your loss and hit the “SELL” button. And guess what ? Damn price went back up again !! Somebody must be watching me ! This is a fix ! It has to be !

Human nature is such, that it is usually AFTER we make a mistake, that we decide we’d better try to LEARN a bit about a subject. So we crank up the internet and stick “learn forex” into the search engine. But the blizzard of information that swamps you in the next 5 minutes only adds to the now growing feeling that ebay is the better option. ( it isn’t, take it from me ! )

All you are looking for is a simple article that says, “Look, hit button A, then button B, wait til you’ve made a profit, then hit button C.” Is that too much to ask ?? If only.

But instead of that, all you can find is some mumbojumbo about MAC something, some guy called Elliot and a whole load of other garbage. And what is this “Trading Strategy” thing that people keep on banging on about. How do you get one of those? More to the point, what IS one of those ? Whatever it is, I’d better get one. I wonder if they do them in red ?

Standing in the doorway of education for the first time is indeed a daunting prospect. Trying to force yourself to take that first step can be a battle all by itself. But the funny thing is it doesn’t really matter which first step you take. Because just as one step leads to another, the first article you read will raise a question in your mind, which in turn will lead you to read another article, then another and another. And then before you are even aware of it, you will have started your education.

But the first step is the most important. No journey begins without taking a first step. And it was by wandering down this path, that finally brought me to discovering the babypips.com web-site and their school of pipsology. Now there ARE other educational web-sites out there, I just happened to like the school of pipsology best.

They’ll explain the ‘Tools’ that are available to you as a trader, that will help you predict which way a price is likely to move, ( Up or Down ). Granted, at the end of the day, it IS still a guessing game, because no-one knows for sure which way a price will go. But because of the nature of forex, with so many of the players using the same “Tools”, you slowly find yourself beginning to make a more ‘educated’ guess, rather than the plain old ‘guess’ you destroyed so many practice accounts with.

But as I began my journey, I kept reading people who spoke of the importance of developing a “Trading Strategy”. And to be honest I still couldn’t get to grips with this. What IS a trading strategy?

Well, from a fellow newbies point of view, a Trading Strategy is simply the combination of the afore mentioned ‘tools’ which you use to decide wether or not to get into a trade. And then when you are in a trade, your Trading Strategy determines how long you stay in it, what your profit target is and how much of your own money you are willing to risk to acheive that target. Simple, it’s just simply the ground rules you set for yourself to determine the way you trade. ( And they only come in red when you’re losing !! )

So let me show you what ‘Tools’, or indicators I use, or, my Trading Strategy. Now remember I am still a newbie myself. I am still learning too. And I hope this image comes up clear enough for you to see. Anyway, here it is. This is typically the chart set up I look at when trying to decide on a trade ;


As you can see my chart is set up as a cancdlestick chart. I’m not getting into how these things work for the benefit of other complete newbies, that is what the school of pipsology is for. But it’s enought to say that these candlesticks, once you’ve read up on how they work, act as indicators for possible future price action.

The coloured lines you see going across the top chart are simple moving averages. I use a 10,20,50,100 and 200 previous period moving averages. And if they are moving in order ( all smaller above higher or smaller below higher ) they indicate to me wether price is likely to be moving up or down.

Also on top chart I have the daily pivot points. They more or less just show me the possible points of support or resistance for that day.

Below the main chart I use the MACD indicator. Again this just more or less shows me if price is in an up move or a down. And once you get into learning about this indicator you’ll know that it also shows wether momentum for that move is still strong or beginning to fade.

And finally below the MACD I have the slow stochastic indicator. This just simply tells me wether the pair is overbought or oversold at that given time, which may indicate a direction change.

I also put a fibonacci on my charts as and when I need it. This acts as another good support and resistance indicator. Again, you can read how to use the Fibonacci tool in the school of pipsology.

Now, complete newbies may be asking why use so many ? Why not just use the one good one? Well the simple answer is there is NO one good one that tells us what is about to happen. We make decisions based on a combination of different indicators showing the SAME possible move. I’d like you to read this extract from Voleo’s reply #167;

“after getting a signal should I enter directly on an engulfing pattern or always wait for a pull back. I see a lot of trades that keep going on after an engulfing signal and never look back. But I also see a lot of trades that just love to reverse exactly after engulfing signals and therefore require a big stop loss to catch eventual winners.”

Just for those who don’t know, an engulfing pattern is a candlestick formation that is, broadly speaking, supposed to indicate a change in price direction, but it isn’t written in stone that price will.

Now I may be jumping the gun here, and I’m sorry if I am, but that sounds to me as though Voleo is basing a trade decision purely on the sign given by one indicator alone. ( My apologies to you Voleo if that is not true ) But no one indicator gives a definitive signal, so it is important that we use a combination of indicators.

So why do I use these particular indicators. Well the answer to that is easy. I’m a newbie. These are more or less the only indicators that I have learned enough about to feel confident using them in an actual trade. I am currently reading up on different indicators, ( eg Elliot wave, Ichimoku ) and as I learn I will test them out on my demo account. I may, or may not end up using them.

I may, in fact, end up going through my entire forex adventure using only the indicators I’m currently using. I don’t know yet. But that is what is meant by developing MY Trading Strategy. I use the indicators mentioned above and I draw support, resistance and trend lines on my charts.

If I’d learned to do these things BEFORE I opened my account, it may not have nose dived so quickly in the beginning.

So learn about the different indicators out there. Even the “Professionals” all swear by different ones. Test some out on your demo account and decide which ones are best for you. Decide on how much of your hard earned cash you are willing to risk on any one trade.

And decide what level of profit your willing to make before your nerves get the better of you and you close your trade just in case the market turns against you. And all of a sudden there you have it. You are now the proud owner of a Trading Strategy. How cool does that sound ??

Incidentally, I believe my chart will appear as a link in this article. If anyone knows how to add the image directly I would be grateful if you could tell me. I tried the ‘add image’ icon but it asked for the web URL of the image and I don’t have one. The image is stored in my documents section.

Anyway sorry if this has bored the more seasoned traders, but I hope it helps the newbies.
I’ll try to get the 3rd article done today but the wife wants to go to the shops and by then the markets will be getting ready to open.
Talk Soon
Trade Well this week.
HoG

Hmm, a lot of things were written by all of you where I can learn from. The point why I make money is not a single trade. It’s all trades together. Look at it this way. Don’t look at the trees, look at the forest. And if you look this way, you know that a trade or even a month full of trades doesn’t say anything. For all businessmen here they know that a single customer who just buys one time makes no profit. You need a lot of customers and enough revenue to make more than expenses drain out of the business. So it is in trading.

Regarding confidence, that is a two edge sword. If you have no edge, no confidence in the world will help you become profitable, even if you think you are superman/women, lol. You need at first an edge. And those edges are not easy to get. It takes hard work of analyzing. The next hard thing is to follow and break a lot of rules of general “wisdom”. What everybody seems to know is right is not a warranty to be right.

Regarding post count, that doesn’t matter. There are some of honorary members who don’t make money. If you want make money, you are at least on your own. All can give some advice, but if it’s reliable for you or anybody else has to be checked by yourself. That’s why I backtest all of my strategies for at least 2 years and only if all the parameters show me a controllable risk with a senseful return I let my bots go live. The risk here is the key. Don’t look up, look down first, then look down again and if you can’t see anything else than just the bottom, then you might start thinking about returns. This is a sharks business basin where almost all lose money, no matter what brokers like to tell you. Just a few percent of the traders survive over the long haul, and I read a lot of books to be convinced those are not the guys which make gazillions in no time, because that needs too much risk to survive for long. So, if you have a profit of say 25 or more percent a year be proud! You are better than probably 90+% of all other traders!

Well, I do not say if you made some money over some years you couldn’t increase the risk with a small portion of the profit, but most seem to lose before they even make a profit and it is the classic gamblers fallacy to believe you can just go out of your losses with doubling, tripling, etc. lot sizes and because of the last trades were losers the next one has to be the jackpot. That won’t work.

If I used “you” then I had no one person here in mind. Just generally speaking.

Hey All

Ok, here’s a quick one for you. Right now, just before the market opens for the week, I am looking at the 4H Euro Dollar chart.

If price is to continue to follow successive lower highs from 7 / 6 / 11, I am looking to short the pair around the 1-4430/40 area. This has been a point of resistance recently. Looking to put my stop around the 1-4520 mark and target recent area of support at around 1-41 ish.

I’ll wait and see how things shape up over the next couple of hours of opening. Obviously if PA goes a different direction I’ll re-examine my plan. Any opinions, as always, I’d be glad to hear them.
Trade Well
HoG

I am short the euro from a few days ago.

I would say however, if you are confident in your trading system (which you should be if you’re trading live), I would avoid asking for others opinions on your potential/live trades. Not to say discussion of trades is not a good thing, just personally, no matter what anybody says on a forum, I am right in shorting the Euro as per my way of trading.

If I was to list 10 reasons for you not to short it, would that sway you?

Yep, totally understand what you mean. And to be fair, I’m keen to short the Euro anyway, just trying to find an entry point with a reason rather than hitting the button “now”.

But the reason for telling my thinking was purely to put it out to other newbies, like me, to show that I have traded for a reason, it wasn’t just a random entry point. Even if I am wrong and the trade goes against me, others could still see that and maybe look at why it went against me.

Maybe it might help to see the actions of others. I don’t know, it was just a thought.
HoG

I agree, like I said discussion of trades can be a good thing. Just pointing out that it’s dangerous to base trading on others opinions.

Again I think you are correct.

Probably one of my mistakes when first starting out ( and I’m not using this as an excuse ) was blindly following the ‘tips’ of so called “experts”. One of the things I have been doing over the last couple of weeks is noting down the buy/sell recommendations of the panel on cnbc’s money in motion programme. Some of these people hold what appears to be, ( going by their title anyway ) very senior positions at some very large, prestigious companies.

And yet still it amazes me how often their recommendations tank. Unless, of course, they have ulterior motives for this.

Or would I just be one of those sad conspiracy theorists for thinking such a thing? lol.
HoG

That there are conspiracy theorists does not give evidence there is no conspiracy going on, lol. :stuck_out_tongue:

Frankly, I guess without a system with an edge it is almost impossible to win. All what is left then is rooted in money management, risk mangement, etc. etc.

Curious-did u take the short?

So my replies to your statements are within the quote. don’t apologize for being confrontational, I actually enjoy it. If I thought someone on the internet could break me down with words, I probably wouldn’t have racked up 4-digit post counts ranting and raving about my trading experiences. :34:

To both D. Sterling and you HoG, I really do share your ultimate goals in trading. I don’t have a family yet (just a girlfriend hehe), but I know that when I do I will want to spend lots of time with them. I never wanted to pursue another career, because I would see the “cons” inherent in those paths, and I thought I’d just get my hands dirty right from my early 20s and go for what I truly wanted: Financial Freedom.

Some people want more, but pretty much all can agree they would at least enjoy not having to work for someone else in order to provide for their family. Since everyone wants it, I knew there must be some level of “entry barrier” that keeps the majority of people out of this game.

The thing is that I’m learning more and more that these entry barriers are less financial, and more to do with building psychological and emotional contructs to deal with the insanity these markets can throw at you :wink:

Which makes me happy honestly, because it is nice to know that you simply can’t “buy” your way into this market!

Hi WildChancer

Short answer (if you’ll excuse the terrible pun) is that I took a short, which I closed today for 139.1 pips profit.

But in the spirit of honesty, I’ll tell you exactly what happened, which more than validates the concerns you had last night about sharing your trade ideas AND the article buckscoder placed a link for on reply #170 of this thread.
(Secret to Value Investing: Ignore Market Noise - Seeking Alpha)
If anyone hasn’t read this article yet I strongly urge you to do so.

Anyway, since I had worked the nightshift on Saturday night, my wife took the kids out for the day on Sunday to let me sleep in the morning. Which meant, when I got up, I was free to sit and study some charts. And after a while, I decided that the best looking opportunity for me was the trade set up I wrote about last night (#184).

Quick little bit of background again for you. As I wrote in a later post last night, one of my early mistakes was blindly following the tips of “experts”. Now the trading platform I use is FXCM, and as a client of theirs, it gives me free access to their FX analysis web-site, DailyFX. I’ve lost count of the number of ‘tips’ I’ve seen on that which have just tanked.

Anyway, roughly Thursday last week one of their analysts posted that he had shorted Euro Dollar at 1-4238, looking for a target of around 1-4090, with a stop at 1-4450. And the last thing I remember saying to myself on Friday night as the market closed was how that was another trade tanked for DailyFX as price closed around 1-4380 on Friday. ( even though he WAS still in the game as it hadn’t reached his stop)

So, back to Sunday. For the entire day I was happy with my plan. When the market opened I intended to place the order to enter around 1-4430/40 as I mentioned. With the stop and target I told you about last night. then, for some reason, as you remember, minutes before the market opened, I posted the details of my plan, which you raised concerns about as the replies of others may well mess with your head and make you change your plan. (Guessed what happened yet?)

Well, in your reply you mentioned that you had shorted Euro Dollar a couple of days ago, and then the market opened, and for the first half hour or so, as I’m sure you’ll remeber, the price started to drift down, eventually reaching last nights low of 1-4346. Now all of a sudden, my whole way of thinking changed. Price WAS moving down ( as I guessed it would, but I thought it would go higher first). Now I started to think, “Wait a minute, price is moving down, Daily FX analyst has shorted it, WildChancer has shorted it, I’m missing the move here !”

So, consumed with panic that I WAS missing the move, I hit the sell button at 1-43488. ( I placed my stop and TP at planned levels) And then literally 2 minutes AFTER I hit the sell button, price started to drift back up. When I woke up this morning, price was at 1-4414, and roughly 1-4420 as I headed out to work, dejected that I had made such a bad call.

At one point I considered just closing the trade and cutting my losses as price reached 1-4440 and I was almost 100 pips down by then. But I thought back to my original plan and decided to let it run. Sure enough price hit a high of 1-4455 and then turned around. I decided to close it out at 1-42097 (139.1 pips up) because I was following PA on my iPhone, and the app for it is terrible. The chart it gives is a total waste of time and it is impossible to tell what momentum or anything else is looking like, so I closed it. This turned out to be a good call as price only went down to 1-41833 and as I write is now back up to 1-4263.

So, in the end, I made a profit. Should’ve been over 200 pips profit had I followed yours, the Seeking Alpha advice, and my own original analysis, but I can live with 139.1.

However, when I look back at the trade, regardless of the fact that I made a profit, it was a terrible trade to take on the way I did.

First of all I decided to enter through panic, nothing else! No analysis, no good reason, just panic that I was missing a move.

Secondly, when I DID enter, I used the same stop I had intended to use in my original plan. So when you take into account my entry point, (1-4348) and my stop was 1-4550, that means I risked 200 pips. Now this may be normal for larger trade accounts, but since I trade micro accounts ( 10 cents per pip ) and my account balance before I opened the trade was $70, this means I risked approx 30% of my account on this one trade. This was wreckless and very, very stupid.

Luckily, my original analysis wasn’t too bad and I got out ok, but it could have been a whole different ball game. So I have now taken your advice to heart, and believe it or not, I have went back to the Seeking Alpha article, printed it out, laminated it, and stuck it on my wall above my computer, just as a constant reminder.

I am seriously re-considering my trading strategy in light of this. I am contemplating printing out the coming weeks Economic calendar on a Sunday now, avoiding trading in front of, or just after data releases, reading no-one’s tips or opinions at all, and just trading off of what I can see on the charts in front of me.

This has turned out to be much longer than a simple " YES " that I could have wrote to answer your original question, but I thought it was worth writing what I did.
Thanks again WildChancer
HoG

( Incidentally, another tanking for DailyFX )

ahahahah so u at the Daily FX stage?..I was there a long time ago.

CNBC CNN, BBC, Squakbox, Powerlunch or even Dailyfx are not news makers.

They are just news providers. They will repeat and rehash whatever that is being said out there.

The market will do what it wants to.

(Sorry, can’t figure out how to address my responses to specific sections of your original post - my first para is aimed at your first para, my second at your second)

I see expert opinion in trading almost like sports pundits - I am a big fan of boxing and F1, and I see a lot of experts analyse each event, and they invariably disagree, which means that some of them are wrong. Following the discussion is interesting, but I will always draw my own conclusion, and I am happy with my success rate compared with the ‘pros’ (I picked Fury to beat Chisora, and Button to win the Hungarian GP…!).

For what it is worth (and I know that you did not ask for opinion lol!) I think that this sounds a very good idea. I don’t place myself directly in front of major news announcements when I place trades - smacks too much of gambling, to me - and as my coach always drums into me, I try to trade what I see, what the chart tells me. At the end of the day, noone knows what is going to happen next, so it is important only to place trades based on my own analysis and my own understanding of the chart. If a trade wins that I copy from someone else, I might have made some money, but it is not a repeatable career plan. If I have a losing trade based on my own analysis, then at least I can learn from that process and be better next time. I also know that it is my own fault, rather than being tempted to blame the trader I copied. Need to accept the consequences of losses!

(Incidentally, for news alerts I use forexfactory.com’s calendar, set to my timezone, and keep an eye out for the red-flagged stories.)

Just my opinion.

ST

Same here. News are funny to read. I never trade based on news. I even went a step farther now: I just trade statistics. I mean backtested probabilities of a lot of trades within years. A single trade means nothing to me (or my bots). Every single trade can go either direction, which nobody has control over. Price can reverse, double twist, etc. Just over the long haul it shows if a strat with several trades turns out to be a strat with an edge. And best of all that is the reason I am free of emotions while trading. I don’t care about losers, nor winners. Because I know that the profits are higher than the losses all together and I have control over my risk if that should change.

No family. just a girlfriend eh? I remember saying a very similar thing once.

Anyway, you are right. Most people would agree that it is better to work for yourself rather than someone else. But even that depends entirely on what you do. I do work for myself, have done for quite a while. But it wasn’t until the last few years that I woke up and realised I’ve been chasing the wrong thing all this time.

I worked for so long chasing money, and like most people, managed to pay the bills every month but not much more. It’s only when you see your kids growing older in front of your eyes that you realise you should have chasing time all along. You seem to have realised that young and fair play to you for it.

I don’t seek extreme wealth from FX, ( although I wouldn’t say no if it knocked on the door ) but I do see that if I can learn enough and be successful enough in it that it replaces my yearly wage, it would be a career path that would free up some of that precious time I’m searching for. And in a strange way, that I hope you can appreciate, maybe that is the reason why my losses in a small account mean as much ( to me personally ) as a younger persons larger losses in a larger account. A younger person losses money, but even if they lose it all, they’re young, they still have time. But when it’s time you’re chasing and you’re losing, the frustration is every bit as real, because it’s not JUST your money you see slipping away. I hope you understand what I mean by that.

When I left school I entered into construction. That was a hard, physically tiring job. And I used to laugh when I heard office workers say they were " mentally tired “. I used to think, " what the f**k is ‘mentally’ tired?”

And then when I was first looking into trading I would see books advertised about the “Psychology” of trading. And again, I would ask, “what the f**k has psychology got to do with it?”

It’s funny now because the psychology of trading is probably the thing I struggle with the most ( that and being mentally tired ) and I wonder if that will ever change. Sometimes, mind you, I wonder if that very struggle is the drug that keeps me coming back.

Good Luck To You
HoG

The psychology of trading is in my personal opinion, what distinguishes those who are successful and those who aren’t. Think about it-techniques for trading are not a secret, there are many successful traders all using various types of analysis (harmonics, trend following, contrarian, indicator based etc.). Anybody can learn to use any of these techniques but not everybody can trade them to profitability. The deciding factor is ultimately not the method but the person.

The forex market is the biggest liquid market for currencies. The currencies of the world are on a floating exchange rate, and are always traded in pairs. There is also a risk factor in forex market but the risk of loss in foreign currency trading market can be extensive.

Can you explain what you mean be that? because I am at a Daily FX stage.
I use their real time news feed and read (but not follow) their technical analysis articles, perhaps they have noticed a trend line or potential resistance that I haven’t.
Like HoG I noticed their tips have a pretty high failure rate and so ignore them.

I think all that was meant was that when a lot of people get started in this business they may have a tendency to follow, rather blindly, the advice and tips given by so-called “experts” on DailyFX or a thousand other similar sites. I know I did. Without using them as an excuse, (purely because I hate excuses ) I believe I lost a good percentage of my initial deposit by following them word for trade !!

We all probably take similar paths into FX, make the same mistakes, look at the same web-sites for guidance etc.

I think Nikitafx was just passing comment that she too followed Dailyfx until she learned to do things her own way. I still read some of the analysis on DailyFx. In fact, if you go on to their web-site, click on the forums, go into ‘currency pairs’ and then click ‘eur/usd’, you’ll find a daily analysis section by one of their guys called Alejandro Zombrano ( should’ve been a hollywood legend with a name like that )

I prefer to refer to him though as The Grand Old Duke Of York. Because invariably, day after day, his analysis seems to say nothing more than " If price goes up it will go up, and if it goes down it will go down, but if it only goes a little bit up…"

I do still watch it though but like you, no longer take any trade recommendations from them.

Speaking of which, and in my new found spirit of NOT discussing a trade idea BEFORE I’ve made it, I decided to short GBP/USD tonight

open 1-64346
stop 1-4515
target 1-4310

Hoping to be out with a profit before the NFP on Friday, so we’ll see how that works out.

Just as a bit of fun, account balance has broke through long term resistance level of $74. Had been trading in a range for a while between $60-$74. New daily high of $83.98. Hopefully $74 will be first of many lower highs in a long term uptrend.

Goodnight All
HoG