Truth is we don’t know what was said by Merkel, only what Cummings briefed to journalists.
The reason for not allowing the customs union here in NI given by the current UK govt is referred to as ‘the principle of consent’ - they argue there is no consent for such an action.
So simple resolution - ask the people in NI do they want the border to stay open by staying in the customs union, but also remaining in UK, i.e. keep the UK intact.
If they say ‘no’ then the EU will have to do a trade deal, the EU argument on NI is bust.
If the people in NI say ‘yes’ - then the EU will have to do a trade deal - all of UK is out of EU, border stays open.
It’s so simple - win win for UK - what is the problem, why is it so hard?
Edit: Either Yes or No the UK exits the EU / NI stays in the UK - there is no desertion, no abandonment, like I say couldn’t be more simple.
Interesting @peterma, but we are not even discussing a trade deal yet - we are discussing a uk withdrawal treaty - as a pre-cursor to even considering a “Trade deal” and teh “Backstop” in Theresa May’s dreadful "Surrender Treaty document" contains exactly the implication that Northern Ireland would be kept hostage within a greater “Ireland” - until released by Eire itself - ie the implication that would be permanent. Merkel’s disclosure today simply confirms that suspicion.
No - far better for Northern Ireland to decide for itself in the fullness of time when it is ready to join with the rest of the UK - than to have a foreign government based in Dublin do that !
That’s the crux of the Good Friday Agreement, how it managed to circle the square when everyone said it would be impossible - my mother had a saying ‘where there is a will there is a way’ and oft times that way can be so simple.
The fullness of time is now - the can is almost unrecognizable as a can because it has been kicked down the road so often - it would take one week to sort it out - vote next Thursday, result Friday.
In NI we are very used to going to the polls, some would grumble, but I’d guess a high turnout.
The Foreign Gov thing - about half the population in NI recognize Dublin as their Gov and we carry Irish passports when abroad - over 80k NI residents applied for these in 2017 alone - the GFA ensures that we can identify as Irish or British or both - the circle squared and peace at last.
The EU and UK could resolve the current argument - if there is a will…
Hi @peterma - I think your argument has a lot of sense and clear thought behind it but I can’t support it.
Firstly the UK should have no referendums. Its up to the politicians to understand what is best economically and socially for their constituents and to take decisions accordingly. If they are right, all’s well: if they are wrong, they pay the price at the ballot box. Any referendum lets the politicians off the hook.
A unique exception might be a UK-membership referendum. But if my MP said it would be better for me to be a citizen of the Free Republic of Devon I’d think its because it would be rather better for him and his career than it would be for me. Its partly a matter of how far you trust your politicians.
With regards the specific question of the NI/Ireland border, I can’t think there is any politician who could show there is political or economic gain for NI or the south to lose free movement of citizens of either across the border. So a referendum would be criminal irresponsibility.
As far as goods crossing the border are concerned, surely these are already being tracked as different commercial taxes apply in north and south? That doesn’t seem to be a problem that we couldn’t get round without opening the backs of lorries at Newry.
No, at present it is free movement of people/goods/money/services - there is no tracking.
(this is why animals from GB must only come into NI via Larne, NI port and be checked by customs there)
I can operate 2 bank accounts North and South and move Gbp’s and Euros freely between them.
I sell goods south, the only ‘tracking’ is that I report to intrastat the Gbp value monthly so that the UK Gov can compile it’s stats.
I buy goods from the south likewise - the only paperwork are the invoices - HMRC does not refer to this movement of goods as imports/exports
My nephew is a painting contractor, he freely takes his vans and staff to Dublin - no tracking of services - just the invoices.
Everyone agrees that the sticking point is the NI border and customs on same - I cannot understand why the people most affected, the NI people, cannot be heard. At the end of the day GB people will be completely unaffected whether there is hard border in Ireland or not.
With the current offer from Boris only the free movement of people would remain - so long as they are not accompanied by an animal or a certain amount of money or goods or heading South to provide a service.
But surely taxes on various goods north and south are different? VAT for example? And even if the rates coincide, surely all the VAT-subject stuff has to be reported to whichever tax authority?
And recruitment of an employee or retention of a contractor from either N or S would need to be logged and reported?
No, the Common Travel Agreement ensures that Irish/British can work/travel freely between both jurisdictions - for example I used the services of a surveying company last week, they were located South, the only logging was paying his Invoice.
When I sell goods business to business (b2b) South then I must zero rate the UK vat, the Southern business then records my purchase invoice into his vat system - there is no logging.
When I sell b2c (consumer) then they simply pay the UK vat to me which in turn I pass on to HMRC again via my accounts system.
Incidentally under the current UK proposal b2c sales vat will be paid to the consumer’s country.
That’s just what I’m saying - you know where your employees live and you know where your contractors are registered and you’re already recording this stuff because you have to by law. And because you’re required to record it, the authorities have the right to demand the info. If this carries on just as now, none of this requires a border checkpoint.
Ever wonder when you are travelling out of an airport anywhere in the EU the British and Irish departure gates are separated and we have to show our passports to Police before entering this separated area from which we are not allowed to exit back into the main post security departure lounge.
It can be quite annoying at times - reason is the Common Travel - UK is not in Schengen area thus Ireland likewise, if Ireland were to join Schengen then it would jeopardize the Common Travel.
No there is no such law, very often invoices are marked “Cash Sale” if they are a retail sale - if a customer requests a name on the invoice then no problem.
The only ‘law’ is that I must keep accounting records
Thing is still that in a business you will know who your suppliers, customers, employees and contractors are and where they are based and you will have a record of all this stuff. Its recorded by you and not some checkpoint guard at the border.
At present all goods conform to EU standard - there is a certificate of conformity with every item from a child’s pram to a bike - whatever. That item also has a CE label - replaces the old British Standard or ‘Kite’ mark.
If I import from outside EU into EU then those goods have to be checked by customs for conformity - it happens that I take in US goods, they are checked by customs at Belfast port.
Takes a while to get them cleared but play by their rules especially don’t hassle them for clearance and the system will run it’s course.
Under the new rules having cleared customs in Belfast then they will need to clear out of NI at Newry and again clear into EU in the South - then I’ll get paid by my ever patient customer…
Edit: or I could just say, think I’ll retire and leave the hassle to a younger generation
The “Fleet” was increased from 229 vehicles to 242.
[Edit - a thought occurs ; IF you are a Fleet manager of 230 vehicles, each with a “useful life” of 2 -3 years it would be a reasonable step to plan to replace 5% of your vehicles 20 times over a 2-3 year period. 13 vehicles represents a pretty close estimate to 5% - so it is quite possible that all those vehicles simply form part of planned periodic maintenance of the fleet. Something which doesn’t seem to have occured either to Mr Taylor - or to the organisation “Border Communities Against Brexit” - who apparently shot and published that video ! ]
Aye, quite possible - thing is they were transported to the largest town closest to the border which was unusual - and just in time for Oct 31st.
Possibly all just a coincidence - bear in mind that I travel thru that town many times per week and have never witnessed a Customs vehicle - Police (Garda) yes but Customs no.
Anyways it’s a sign of things to come I suppose, it’s not a big deal.
There was a leak via the Times today that the EU proposed NI in the customs union but with a time limit - then as Tom suggested it would be up to politicians in NI (Stormont) to decide whether to renew or not - not a referendum.
It got shot down by the DUP on the basis that there would have to be agreement on both sides of the community (part of the GFA called ‘parity of esteem’),
Their Brexit spokesman, Sammy Wilson, said; “It will go nowhere the Gov in Westminster will not accept it, we will not accept it.”
His reasoning was centerd around "given that all the other parties (in Stormont) are supportive of staying in"
So I guess that my idea seeking consent of the NI people on the land border issue would meet the same fate.
My mother’s saying in reverse - where there is no will there is no way.
There is one good thing about the EU Parliament ; Their time limits on speaking time leads to concise speeches !
Here is a one minute speech from a lady we shall be hearing a LOT more of I have no doubt !
It seems that EU officials and Speaker Bercow have been colluding as to “Tactics” - when the EU rules actually prevent them from interfering in member countries politics AND Bercow is under a duty to be Neutral !
She has rather a nice way with words and does address the issue of Northern Ireland briefly at the end of it ;
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It is such a shame the mainstream media Censors us from hearing what is really going on
Yeah, she mentions ‘Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that will never change’.
Two things jumped to mind, first that many people do not realize that ‘Great Britain’ refers to the largest island in the British Isles, hence the ‘great’ title - therefor NI is not part of GB and therefore the mention of both in her 1 min speech.
The second thing is that the lady doesn’t have the right to state ‘that will never change’.
Only the people of Northern Ireland have the right to determine whether ‘that will never change’.
Finally, those trading GBP today got a nice lift if they were correct side of it.
The move was caused by the positive joint statement from Irish and UK PM’s, in particular ’and I do see a pathway towards an agreement in the coming weeks
The move didn’t gain immediate traction largely because the initial tweeted statement was short and sweet, was this move forseeable?
Yes, the meeting was flagged at the beginning of this week and yesterday marked as ‘secret’ - no video, no journalists and best of all no detail on location.
Today it became clear that the meeting was productive simply because after 2 hours it was still in session - that was the time to buy GBP.
The move then gained more traction when the journalist got speaking to the Irish PM at the airport on his way home.
From RTE: Mr Varadkar said that despite the progress there were still issues “yet to be fully resolved”, including ensuring that any long-term arrangement applying to Northern Ireland had the consent of the people there.
He said the second issue was to ensure “that there is no customs border between north and south”.
