Is it possible to TEST the Leverage?

ProfitPotential: you said the pip value is related to only lot size and not both lot size AND leverage. Thank you for telling me this. I admit i didn’t know that. But was thinking that pip value should depend on leverage so if 1:1000, comparing to 1:30, is around 33,3x bigger number than i thought that for the same investment (lot size) on same symbol, the value one point movement (you said pip but i believe same logic is for point) should also be 33,3x bigger. Using your comment that point (or pip) value has nothing to do with leverage surely helps so thanks again but this wasn’t my main question. I am trying to figure out how to test that leverage shown is correct and not fake one. So this is what i want to test. On my previous message i said where can be leverage seen in MT4. I only want to see if this given leverage is really correct one.

Higher the leverage is, more profit or loss can occur in smaller time on currently active position.

leverage is just a gearing ratio between your lot size and the margin requirement.

If you want to buy $100,000 using 1:1000 leverage, then the margin requirement will be;

100,000 / 1000 = $100 for margin to open the deal.

with 1:30 leverage, it will be;

100,000 / 30 = $3,333.33 in margin to open the deal.

You can see your margin, free margin and used margin in the bottom of the MT4 platform.

Also, there are 10 points in one pip.

I cant see why the broker would offer 1:1000 leverage and not honor it.

I hope this helps.

Not sure how any of the latest responses are any different to what I said in my first reply to you but whatever.

One thing that’s not been mentioned here though are fractional pips. Are you sure you’re not looking at movements of 500 when actually the movement is only 50 WHOLE pips??? That’s a possibility.

Higher the leverage is, more profit or loss can occur in smaller time on currently active position.

You’re still not getting it evidently. The higher the leverage the bigger the position size you can open with lesser capital i.e. margin requirement is less. That’s all. Nothing at all to do with time frames or profit or loss or anything else. BUT with high leverage and limited capital one CAN open much larger positions and therefore your profits and losses are magnified i.e. magnified as a direct result of position size not leverage. Maybe there’s where the confusion comes in???

But a word from the wise and battle hardened:

Forget about trading at 1 000:1 leverage. Trust me when I tell you that you WILL wipe out your account. There is a VERY good reason why margin requirements have been increased, in the past year or so, for retail traders. It should have been done YEARS ago in my opinion. And quite frankly: the authorities could and should go even further than they have for retail traders.

Regards,

Dale.

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Hmm this changes everything a lot. I was even doing unwanted brokers list to refrain from opening account there without defining the reason. 70% are suspicious brokers that can be considered upon reviews as scam. Other 30% are reasons such as leverage i didn’t like and the fact that they don’t offer MT4 which is mandatory for me. The list is too big, basically impossible for me to find reason of leverage i didn’t like - clearly i was judging the leverage (max the offer) without even knowing what leverage really is. Wow blacklisting (unwanted list) a broker just because of my lack of understanding of leverage, thats crazy.

I will say example what i WAS thinking what leverage is: Lets say we focus on some X currency pair and Y investment in lots unit. On terminal1 there is, in this example, leverage 1:100, on terminal2 (different broker) it is 1:1000. So what I WAS thinking about the leverage is: if i open on terminal1 X position with Y lots then when the price comes to A price level, i earn B profit. But if i open same symbol, with same investment, in same direction on terminal2 then i earn B*10 (so multiplied with 10) when prices comes to identical A price level. This is because according to my past understanding, on terminal2 is ten times larger leverage. So for same distance of trend done, the profit is ten times larger. Of course ten times larger could be loss too. The reason why i was so sure about this is because every resource i was looking at said that higher leverage means higher risk. What i described in my example is first idea i thought about when it comes to ‘‘risk’’.

I assume there is no other way to increase profit or loss based on distance done unless (which is surely not possible) we could change value of 1 point movement.

ProfitPotential I know that with your “$100,000” you were referring to quantity of units so you are basically saying 1 lot, right?

dpaterso: 500 points equal 50 pips. 1 pip = 10 points. I knew that from day1 of trading. Trend moved for over 500 points and there is barely and profit or loss. Problem seems to be somewhere else and not in leverage. Yes dpaterso, you are correct where confusion one. Thank you for clarification. The proof how sure i WAS that my understanding of leverage is correct is the fact that i was searching for regulated brokers who have offshore departments (offices) where they can legally bypass regulations forcing them (the brokers) to put very low max leverage limit. I was doing everything i can to find as high as possible leverages just to be able to earn (or loss) larger amount from 1 point movement.

So if we put leverage on the side, what else could be the reason for no profit or loss at all even if large trend distance done and investment in lots is far away from being minimum required?

Hello again.

I wish I could answer your real question as to why the profit that is showing should be a lot more than it is. Is there any chance you could post a screenshot of the platform as well as your open trades??? That may help me (us) to see exactly what’s going on and try help you further.

And I’m really not trying to be obtuse when I say that leverage is the worst possible thing around. It’s just one of the reasons why the failure rate in this business is so high (and I used to work for a broker so please trust me when I say this). Unfortunately it perpetuates the notion that somebody can begin to trade with very very little capital and think that they can make fortunes. It just doesn’t work that way. And because of high leverage invariably the trader quickly discovers that because their capital is not tied up in margin they can open many and multiple positions. Great if they’re right on the trades. But normally they’re not. Trades go against them and the entire account is wiped out. Next logical step: they deposit more funds. And the cycle just keeps repeating itself over and over until there are no funds left. And this is the reason why the authorities (at least in the case of regulated brokers) have changed margin requirements. It accomplishes two things: it makes it much harder to wipe out an entire trading account AND it makes it that much more difficult for a trader to enter the market and start trading in the first place because they need decent capital to begin with. I guess all I’m saying is be very wary of brokers that are still offering leverage of 1 000:1 etc. etc. etc. Believe me: they’re not doing you a favor and only have their own interests at heart for obvious reasons.

Anyways. That’s probably a lot more than you wanted to know. But there it is.

As I said: if possible post some screenshots and let’s get to the bottom of your problem once and for all.

Regards,

Dale.

yes, 100k = 1 lot

I also agree with @dpaterso on the point of leverage. Too much is potentially dangerous.

It would be better for you not to open lot sizes that are many multiples of your account balance.

for instance, if you have $1000 in your account, trading one mini lot might be too much as it is. That would be $1 per pip.

Even with 1:30 leverage, that is $333.33 as a margin requirement. However, a 50 pip adverse price move, which is not a lot, is the equivalent to 5% of the account balance.

Just think about that.

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one screenshot is attached but current loss was almost the same ( ! ) on opening of green candle that i am pointing at with red vertical line.

I usually open positions with lower investment, e.g. up to only max 20% to 25% of balance. I don’t go too high with investment because i am aware at any time trend could change but i like to use Trailing. In average my Trailing is between 110 and 140 points. I don’t have exact theoretical (or even practical) explanation why this exact range. I am just used to it.

I am trying to think why current profit or loss (by ‘‘current’’ i am obviously referring to opened position) doesn’t change at all not even after larger distances done.

ProfitPotential, per $1000 on balance i would say around 1 lot investment in total opened trades (sum) would be ok if not having any other source of income because money needs to be earned somewhere. Extremely low investments surely reduce risk but also don’t make any income at all.

Demo account. I don’t have anything on real because everything was lost due to trading price action instead of economic calendar.

If you deposit $1000 and trade 1 lot, you are probably going to blow your account faster than you can ever imagine. Trading up to 1 lot per $1000 in balance would achieve similar results.

Its your money, I’m not telling you what to do. However, just heed the warning.

The profit and loss on the screenshot for those lot sizes looks fine to me.

The USDCHF trade is about 12 pips in a loss

The USDCAD trade is about 2 pips in a loss.

However, you also have to add or subtract the swap which is the interest paid or received for rolling your deals over to the next trading day. Those deals have been open for more than a week.

ok thank you anyway.

Hello,

You can try this Indicator, it gives some info you might find usefull.

TradeInfo.ex4 (91.5 KB)

Oh, I forgot this one also!
ProfitTracker.ex4 (6.8 KB)

Damn, Its to early for me. Forgot this one.
IceFX.DrawProfit.ex4 (22.4 KB)

Put all of those in your Indicator Folder. Then, hit Refresh. Or restart your Mt4.

Good morning @LazinessChampion

I’ve looked at that chart. Not sure where the issue is i.e. not understanding what the problem is.

But if I’m reading the rest of your information correctly then it looks to me like you need some help when it comes to position sizing and risk management.

So far as I can tell: you are opening positions based on a percentage of your capital in the account. In other words: you’re basing your position size on the amount of margin being reserved as a percentage of the capital in your account. If I’m correct then read on. If I’m wrong then no worries.

You need to forget about leverage here for a minute. You need to work out what percentage of risk you’re prepared to take on any one given trade. Such percentage risk could be 1% or 2% (or whatever) of the total capital in your account (nothing at all to do with leverage or margin requirements). Once you’ve calculated this then you must open lot sizes such that if the potential loss (if your stop is reached) does not exceed 1% or 2% of your account.

While the above may seem very basic to some: I can remember when I first started trading that I didn’t understand this and nobody took the time to explain it to me in terms that I could understand. So I started out opening trades by working out what margin requirement represented 1% or 2% of my capital. Needless the say (and at that stage I was also trying to trade with ridiculous amounts of leverage) this resulted in my being able to open HUGE positions and, well, I think it took me a few minutes each time to wipe out a few hundred $$$ trading accounts (which eventually added up to THOUSANDS of $$$).

If the above doesn’t make sense (as I see that your first language is not English) then please ask and I’ll post a detailed example of how to calculate risk, position size, and how to use a PIP Calculator.

Regards,

Dale.

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dpaterso the 1% or 2% of total balance on opened positions are probably meant for people who have income from different kind of work (e.g. employer). But for others like me, who have no income at all and zero savings (i admit i lost twice on my trading account everything i had in two brokers), we need to open larger size position to earn some salary from trading as profit from closed positions. Therefore i cannot have such low investment otherwise, even if direction of trend will be wanted one, the profit won’t be sufficient to take for bills.

The problem in chart, but not just post one, is the fact that there is basically no current profit or loss on active position regardless how far does the price go from entry price level.

Hi.

I hear what you’re saying. Unfortunately I’m in the very same situation right now and it’s the only reason I’ve started trading again. But experience has taught me (the hard way) that things just don’t work out when you’re taking too much risk by opening too many positions or positions too large for your trading account. The end result is ALWAYS the same. Sometimes it just takes a little bit longer to destroy an account is all. But as I say: the end results is always the same. I’ve learned (as I say: the hard way) that you need decent capital to be able to trade and to not rely on leverage. That is the only formula that works in spite of what anybody around here says. You need to think about leverage in a different way. You are asking the broker to lend you money in order for you to be able to open a large position. If you make profit: the profit is all yours and thank you very much for your help Mr. Broker. If you make a loss: well all you’re going to lose is the money that you put in. That doesn’t sound like a good or fair deal now does it. Just think about those statements for one minute. You are a total stranger to the broker and if you lose the broker’s money they have no recourse. Now if I asked you as a total stranger to lend me some money to open a large position and I’ll pay you back when the trade is closed: would you lend me that money??? Not a chance in hell The only time you would lend me that money is if you were ABSOLUTELY 100% GUARANTEED to get it back WITH a profit. And that is why some of these brokers offer ridiculous amounts of leverage. They are GUARANTEED (even if it takes a while) to get not only THEIR money back (which in most cases they’re not actually putting up anyway i.e. it’s just figures on a screen) but also YOUR money when all is closed.

Anyway. I feel for you. I really do. The only way I can possibly help you is to direct you to my thread that I started recently. But it means you forget about FOREX altogether and you really do need some serious capital (although this would all depend on how much money you need to make on a monthly basis). Not sure what else to say.

With regard to your chart and positions: I still don’t have the answer. Maybe open another demo account at another broker and start over.

Regards,

Dale.

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Oh and by the way (for you and anybody else reading the above message of mine):

I am not the least bit interested in knowing how much money you have to trade with, I will not EVER trade other people’s money again, I am not affiliated with nor work for any broker at all (not even as an Introducing Broker), and have no interest, vested or otherwise, in your trading. So don’t ask. Been there, done that, never again. Truth be told: I’ve ended up in a really nasty situation through no fault of my own (nothing at all to do with trading). And I have not had one single person to turn to that gives enough of a sh*t to help me out for a few months (this in spite of me having done the same on several occasions for one or two people over the years and who have had every excuse under the sun for not being able to tide me over for a few months). So I am EXTREMELY bitter about the whole situation and am left with no choice but to do what I’m doing now. And the only reason I’m posting again, if the real truth be told, is that I’m single again and on my own and it’s actually doing my head in especially with not having anything else to do in the day. So there’s the truth. Anyway: point is that if I can help by showing you something that I know works consistently (as long as you obey the rules 100% and don’t get greedy and don’t get ahead of yourself) well then I’m happy to do so.

Regards,

Dale.

Very well said yes but although i am going in extreme off-topic comparing to my question (still noone has answered me), i will comment your statement of:

If you make a loss…

I lost everything i had on two accounts but i don’t feel like i am entirely responsible for that. Not blaming one of two (but i do the second one) brokers either. The thing is that my responsibility ends when position gets opened. Not as pending but as active. Obviously i have to do everything what is possible to be done before opening a trade. This is the moment where i am responsible. To make smart investments (i did that), market research (i did that), well created strategies (i did that), appropriate money management - referring to investment decision. I admit i haven’t done the fourth thing. This fourth thing was my entire failure for which i am responsible for and believe it or not, but honestly i don’t think i would choose any different investment this time or next time, even if i just admitted my failure in money management. Why? Because if i succeed in “direction announcement” then i have to get enough profit to form at least minimum salary to live with since i don’t have any other income. People who have it, can afford smaller investments. I cannot because everything depends on trading. But why i don’t feel entirely responsible for the loss is the fact that after position becomes active, i can only watch the trend. It is completely out of my hands where the trend is going. I haven’t put it in incorrect direction (against my positions). It wasn’t me who caused the consequence (opposite direction) for a loss. I did entire work (expect incorrect money management which may even be a key one) before entering active position. Until that moment, its my responsibility. What happens next with a trend, i cannot control anymore. Defined problem can be ‘‘Reversal In Opposite Direction’’ but i haven’t done it. So i am partially but not entirely responsible and its unfair that broker doesn’t refund. Its like being punished for something i haven’t done. How could i know that reversal will happen before having active positions opened? I cannot look into the future. This is just as my comment to your statement that i make a loss. I am respecting all rules of trading, been learning for a long time. But something i haven’t done, shouldn’t punished me in a form of a permanent loss.

In all those negativity and money i have been “partially” robbed from is also a small good thing: All those failures forced me to develop some completely new strategy to try on demo and stay away from indicators that don’t work. They show only past and current happening on trend with zero assurance same will happen in the future. Also stay away from price action analysis because resistance and terminal zones, and also things like indecision candles, are by far over-rated. I am still doing failures even on new strategy on demo BUT there is one positive and one negative thing. Negative is that a lot of time, talking about months, is wasted waiting for position to come to at least zero or minimum profit in order to close it. I don’t want to go in discussion why i am so much eager even on demo account to not close position in a loss but rather waste months of waiting for nothing - basically only for VIRTUAL money to come to zero profit from loss. Positive thing is that i am able to catch where the failure was pretty easy. Considering this failure, i develop new step in strategy or correct previous one. Using new step, the failure (usually) doesn’t occur anymore. New one may but more failures i eliminate, higher possibility of (faster) profit is.

Example: The latest failure i caught was too low distance used where Stop pending position was executed. Referring to the distance which has to be done by the trend so when it reaches this level, stop buy or stop sell becomes market bid/ask and gets executed. I had two opposite Stops, one buy, one sell. The consequence of failure was the following: the trend did a small movement and cause one stop to execute then it retraced to opposite direction where Stop was auto closed. Now it is going to that opposite direction further more and more, causing larger and larger loss on demo. Wrong solution is to think that next time i should simply increase the distance so if the trend moves so little then unwanted Stop won’t be executed yet. Why is this wrong solution? Because we can never know how many points (so what distance) is enough. So the better solution is to develop the method which tells me how do i the quantity of needed points how much away from current market price Stop has to be. I got that idea also and it is involving upper/lower shadows.

By the way: if on this forum is any expert in defining quantity of points for Stop pending orders and would be willing to share his idea, so i can compare it with my, i would owe him for a life time.

You further said:

“showing you something that I know works consistently”

yes i am interested, whatever are you referring to.

Dude.

I don’t understand any of your post. And I’m not going to even try. Sorry.

Here. Go to my thread (link below). Don’t even bother reading the posts i.e. just download the e-book on the link at the end of the first post (to begin with anyway) and read it through concentrating particularly on Chapter 8 (TPS i.e. Time, Price, Scale-in). If it looks like something you can trade then I’m happy to discuss particulars etc. on my thread. Just be aware though: you are not trading each and every single day and most of the time you’re out of the market so better you find something else to keep your brain occupied during the day. You’re also not going to make monthly every single month but ON AVERAGE over a period it will equate to that. And given that you don’t seem to concerned about managing risk it could just work for you.

https://forums.babypips.com/t/tps-time-price-scale-in-revisited/215204

Regards,

Dale.

One reason why I ask traders to stay away from leverage is this, it’s more complicated than what it seems to be. I mean if it was actually this simple to just open an account with $100 and use say 500x leverage on it and become a richie rich kinda guy overnight, eveybody would have been minting green. So keep leverage at bay, concentrate on perfecting your strategy without it.