Political Opinion

[PureMuscle]

Huh?

He was just telling people they shouldn’t judge the person without looking at themselves.

I didn’t see that he edited that part of his post. But you are quite correct, it isn’t about casting literal stones. Not sure why MT mentioned that.

[mastergunner99]

It always brings a smile to my face when someone uses this argument against Christianity. Correct, the Bible is written by man, but it is inspired by God. I’m not sure why you have offered the possibility that it may have been written by a supernatural force.

This argument of whether the Bible is historically accurate and inspired by God has been debated and proven to be true. I’m not going to repeat such a debate (for the sake of not writing 10000 word long posts), but instead refer you to an article which I feel adequately covers the subject:

How do we know the Bible is true? ChristianAnswers.Net

I’m not sure how you have arrived at such a generalisation. I personally worship God because of his loving nature and because of all He has done for me. I do not worship him under some command to do so. I’m intrigued by non-believers’ consistent comparison of God to humans and our human nature, when God is by definition a higher power, perfect and omniscient. If anyone in existence did have a right to be selfish with regards to the attention of humans, it would be God.

Come on MT, did you bother to read my post about the Old and New testaments? There is no different “approach” applied in each, God is precisely the same God throughout the Bible and throughout time. He did not do a “rethink” about his approach and then change his mind. The OT has it’s purposes (which I have already laid out), one of which is to prophesy the coming of Christ. God had one approach - sending Jesus to die for our sin. There is no other approach. If you could perhaps elaborate? If you remove the OT entirely, the NT makes little sense.

Regarding the various denominations within Christianity, this is a concept developed and inspired by man. There is no mention of denominations in the Bible, thus it was clearly established by man adding his own spin on the Bible. Jesus teaches us unity as a church and as Christians, he is not in favour of divisions within the church. Here’s what Paul said about it: 1 Corinthians 1:10 - “I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.”

Some Christians may argue that each denomination is correct in its beliefs, but the various man-made spins which have been pinned onto what the Bible teaches are invariably incorrect and in conflict with the words of Jesus. This is why it is so painful to hear atheists and other non-believers specifically referring to Catholics in particular when they mention Christians. In the mind of an atheist, Christianity = Catholicism. They don’t see further than that, and thanks to movies in particular, I can understand why!
Catholicism is the worst spin-off from Christianity because of the multitude of man-made religious practices which they have added onto the words of the Bible.

The reality of the situation is that as Christians we are set free from sin. I personally cannot tell you what the consequence of denominational faiths will be, only God knows that. But I do know that anyone who teaches something contrary to the Bible is wrong. Galations 1:6 - “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”.

Thankfully, we are redeemed of sin by Jesus. Thus, I am sure that these Christians of various faiths will ultimately receive eternal life. As for the consequence of following man’s own creations - like I said, I have no idea what it would mean to be “under God’s curse”, but this certainly does not mean that they will burn in hell.

I am part of a non-denominational church (perhaps you have not heard of these). We only believe what the Bible tells us. No bells and whistles added.

The Bible cannot be proven to be inspired by God, for its not proven that God exists, nor can it be proven with our existing technology.
.
And yes, I refer to supernatural because God is supernatural. I don’t believe in hocus pocus, and I believe that everything has a rationale explanation.

God can be explained, just not by the technology we have today.

It’s easy to believe magic occurred when it sounds like it happened so long ago. It allows people to dispel reality. But the fact of the matter is that it all can reasonably be explained.

[wigglez]

I didn’t see that he edited that part of his post. But you are quite correct, it isn’t about casting literal stones. Not sure why MT mentioned that.

I believe they were stoning some lady or were about to, and he said that to them. I can’t remember the whole story.

[PureMuscle]

I believe they were stoning some lady or were about to, and he said that to them. I can’t remember the whole story.

Yes, but what was the purpose of what Jesus said? Was he literally just saying that we shouldn’t throw stones unless we are without sin?

I think MT missed the point of that verse. Jesus is forgiving, it’s all the more evident from the fact that he did not throw a stone at the woman in question.

[wigglez]

Was talking about gun control earlier with somebody. That comes up a lot lately.

I ended up looking for a some stats on violent crime comparing europe to the u.s.

I found the data for the u.s. on fbi site
FBI — Violent Crime

European union commision is one ugly site and I had trouble finding the data, so I skipped it for now. If anyone else wants to give a go at it, please do.
European Commission

I ended up doing Canada, because I found the information easier.
Data table for chart 1

According to these sites for 2011 the violent crime rate for u.s. was 386.3.
I was actually surprised to see the Canadian violent crime rate so much higher at 866. More than double.

Now, when I brought it up, the person claimed the u.s. doesn’t take into account sexual assault. Which I know is bull, because it says right there in a pretty viewable area.

He also claimed that Canada counts non-aggravated assault. This is possible, but I didn’t find any evidence on the statcan site. I’m not sure where he got his information, but from the first thing, I’m less inclined to believe it. If anyone finds anything please post it.

[wigglez]

Yes, but what was the purpose of what Jesus said? Was he literally just saying that we shouldn’t throw stones unless we are without sin?

I think MT missed the point of that verse. Jesus is forgiving, it’s all the more evident from the fact that he did not throw a stone at the woman in question.

Yes, I believe he was trying to make them question whether they really have a right to.

If I cheated on my girlfriend, and found out my girlfriend cheated on me, do I really have a right to pass judgement onto her?

[TommyL]

As a side observation, I don’t see what a bit of this has to do with the fact that taxes just wen up on practically EVERYBODY.

So much for a balanced approach, and having the just the wealthy pay a bit more. Grifters… All of them.

I think when tax increases are made everybody should pay there way.

Seems unfair to me to expect someone to pay a disproportionate tax rate just because they have made a better life for themselves.

Granted some our born with money and never (really) have to work for it but I think I make my point.

[Cyco]

Why did you only respond to only a portion of my post and avoid the more difficult questions and arguments I posed?

Which more difficult questions? I have only so many hours in a day and may not have picked up what you think is more or less difficult. Make a clear, concise list for me to answer and I will do likewise for you.

Regardless, do you seriously believe that you have painted an accurate portrait of marriage with those “word search” results you have posted? Can one argue that they are completely out of context? I would think so. I note the complete omitting of the books of Ephesians and Corinthians - intriguing. It is impossible to convince someone of purpose and sanctity of marriage as envisaged by God if that person has frightfully little knowledge of the Bible in it’s proper context. Are you telling me that I can read and have adequate understanding of entire 1000 page books by doing a simple word search? I should have tried that in university!

Please post your sections that you believe are more accurate. It is not my part of the thread to try and make your points for you.

Let me get this straight - you are going to take our Bible, the word of God, (which you don’t believe is true) and tell me that the Devil is not a compulsive liar because what he said was true. Do you believe in the Bible or not??? That is honestly laughable. I imagine he is fairly bemused by his successful con of you in particular.

Can a compulsive liar tell the truth? If so, are they a compulsive liar? If this was satan why was god still allowing him in heaven till much later in the bible?
If you haven’t worked out that I don’t believe in the bible by now maybe you need to work on your analytical skills

Yes, perhaps I should. Although those poor souls aren’t even allowed to preach the word of God without being persecuted (Christians Arrested for Preaching in New Orleans After Sunset; Police Vow to Target Churches Next | Christian News Network). Could you substantiate your claim by perhaps mentioning some of the churchgoers who have passed away from hunger or thirst?

Do you believe christians are above the law of the land? The law is against anyone, soliciting there, for whatever reason at those times. I suspect they should have been quietly moved on, rather than arrested, but without knowing any more of the specifics of the case I can’t comment on why the police chose to arrest them.
Hurricane Katrina — History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts
Was there a shortage of food and water during hurricane Katrina
CNN: Fresh food shortage in New Orleans - YouTube

Nice! I was hoping you’d say that ;)Whether or not you will admit it, evolution is essentially a religion as well (funnily enough that would include you guys with us feeble-minded folks at the lower end of the IQ spectrum).

The difference between religion and a scientist who believes in evolution is that the scientist is willing and able to change their mind based on the presentation of facts.

Now unless Newton’s First Law of Thermodynamics is incorrect - I’d be happy to hear you argue for that - then I’m afraid that it isn’t possible to create energy from nothing. This effectively means that for your big bang theory to work, someone must have created that matter in the first place. Evolutionists admit themselves that they have no idea what created that initial matter - i.e. you’re believing in something that is unproven and at best, a guess. Wait a minute! Isn’t that what you just said about me believing in God’s creation of the world?! Ahhh hahaha!

Ignoring the semantics of the 1st line – Newton died about 70 years before the ideas of thermodynamic where first postulated, and it was another 70 on from that before the laws where clearly stated.

This states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. However, energy can change forms, and energy can flow from one place to another. The total energy of an isolated system remains the same.

I suspect this is what you are referring to. At the start of the universe we don’t know what was there, we cannot measure it, but what we can do is experiments at high energy levels and look at what we see around us to work backwards from now to what it may have been like then. The last sentence of the law as it is stated there is the important part in this situation, we do not know if we are in an isolated system. Again, presentation of facts proving otherwise and I’ll change my mind.

Can you explain something to me, since you’re a scientist? Do you know about the conservation of angular momentum? According to evolutionists (correct me if I’m wrong), that little dot of matter that blew up and created the universe (funny word that word ‘universe’, from Latin’s ‘uni’ and ‘verse’, meaning ‘one sentence’) was spinning violently in one direction before it exploded. Objects executing motion around a point possess a quantity called angular momentum. This is an important physical quantity because all experimental evidence indicates that angular momentum is rigorously conserved in our universe: it can be transferred, but it cannot be created or destroyed. Since this dot was spinning clockwise (according to evolutionists), when it exploded, all of the matter which it flew out and created the world as we knew it would have received a similar spinning trajectory - clockwise. Why, pray tell, do some planets and moons spin counter-clockwise then?

Some, but not all, theorise that the universe may have been spinning, but to have a spin you must have a frame of reference. This would need to be outside the universe, and as we can’t get there it is only a theory. It would be unlikely to be violent if it did.
The use of the word vigorous is a misnomer, all energy is conserved, but it is converted between motion, heat, and mass. At the time of the very early universe it was almost all heat, and as it cooled it became mass.
With respect to the direction of any initial spin, and the spin in any planetary system, or galaxy to have it change it spin from clockwise to anti-clockwise all you have to do is look at it from the other side. As there is no big universal sign saying ‘^This way up^’ we can’t tell if we are looking at a clockwise spinning galaxy, universe, or something else. Our solar system is inclined at 60 degrees to the direction of motion of our galaxy, simply because that was the direction of the majority of the mass in the accretion disc around our sun at the time of the solar system’s formation.

[paw3000]

@PureMuscle

Here’s a prime example of the Hollywood-inspired “Christianity = Catholicism” belief. It seems that you are as much of a “sheep” as us Christians supposedly are good sir.

Not a hollywood-inspired, but a language issue at 3:30 am. Dont need to say how poor my english is…

I referred to a sheep as a tamed animal. You can change sheeps for dogs, or even hamsters if you prefer…
I think its not that dificult to understand that we just can’t believe things writed in a 2k years book, wich are supposed to be the true answers to all questions the humanity have ever asked, just because the book itself says it…
Doesnt sound it senseless?
And more when you see there are few originals thinks in the bible… did god a copy-paste from other cultures myths?

And then a papa says that the hell doesnt exists, few years later the next papa says he was wrong…

Church is a taming business, a clear example of how to enslave humans mind for the benefit of few.

Cyco , Master Tang and others… We are losing our time here. Imagine you give a christian the irrefutable proof that his god does not exists, and bible story is just a farse, do you think he would change his mentality? he would destroy the proof, and keep believing like the first day. We cant teach maths to a guy who have been always thinking that 1+1=3, and has based all his mind structure, philosphy, and hope on this believe. We can’t teach common sense. how can we teach a blind the color blue? Not everybody is able to life out of matrix.

@Cyco

I think the key is not IQ but ignorance.

+ignorance=+religion

Gods were born from ignorance… humans creates firsts gods to explain atmospheric phenomenons, fire, the sun, death… things they cant understand. Then the middle age was the religions heyday, when the 99% people were illiterate.
Religion countless attempts to stop progress, to stop science, have failed. Their ignorance wall has been broken. People have begun to think for themselves. Now we can chose if we prefer to become dogs or wolves. Dogs has an easy life, but they are not free.

@PureMuscle

Nice! I was hoping you’d say that, Whether or not you will admit it, evolution is essentially a religion as well (funnily enough that would include you guys with us feeble-minded folks at the lower end of the IQ spectrum). We believe that God created the universe from nothing. You believe that the universe was created out of a small dot of matter which was created from… nothing! Hey presto!

Now unless Newton’s First Law of Thermodynamics is incorrect - I’d be happy to hear you argue for that - then I’m afraid that it isn’t possible to create energy from nothing. This effectively means that for your big bang theory to work, someone must have created that matter in the first place. Evolutionists admit themselves that they have no idea what created that initial matter - i.e. you’re believing in something that is unproven and at best, a guess. Wait a minute! Isn’t that what you just said about me believing in God’s creation of the world?! Ahhh hahaha!

Can you explain something to me, since you’re a scientist? Do you know about the conservation of angular momentum? According to evolutionists (correct me if I’m wrong), that little dot of matter that blew up and created the universe (funny word that word ‘universe’, from Latin’s ‘uni’ and ‘verse’, meaning ‘one sentence’) was spinning violently in one direction before it exploded. Objects executing motion around a point possess a quantity called angular momentum. This is an important physical quantity because all experimental evidence indicates that angular momentum is rigorously conserved in our universe: it can be transferred, but it cannot be created or destroyed. Since this dot was spinning clockwise (according to evolutionists), when it exploded, all of the matter which it flew out and created the world as we knew it would have received a similar spinning trajectory - clockwise. Why, pray tell, do some planets and moons spin counter-clockwise then?

Are you saying science is a religion? Pls stop lying, i know you are not that stupid.
Thats a theory, science says that this CAN be the truth. Also do you know the multiverse theory?

However i dont negate this great arguments, but they prove nothing about Jesus… I can say now: the univers was created by a pink pegasus with 7 heads and yellow eyes. And give the same arguments you have been using the past 15 pages, and say: You can’t prove im wrong, so im right, wich has been your main argument. Cmon prove im wrong!!!

@PureMuscle

It always brings a smile to my face when someone uses this argument against Christianity. Correct, the Bible is written by man, but it is inspired by God. I’m not sure why you have offered the possibility that it may have been written by a supernatural force.

This argument of whether the Bible is historically accurate and inspired by God has been debated and proven to be true. I’m not going to repeat such a debate (for the sake of not writing 10000 word long posts), but instead refer you to an article which I feel adequately covers the subject:

I’m not sure how you have arrived at such a generalisation. I personally worship God because of his loving nature and because of all He has done for me. I do not worship him under some command to do so. I’m intrigued by non-believers’ consistent comparison of God to humans and our human nature, when God is by definition a higher power, perfect and omniscient. If anyone in existence did have a right to be selfish with regards to the attention of humans, it would be God.

Inspired by god, because bible says it, lol, irrefutable proof! christian answers.net yes, what an impartial resource… Religions are based on beliefs, not in facts , by definition. If it was that clear jesus was the messiah, why only a minority follow him the first years? why most jews thought he was a liar?
There is no way to prove that what the bible says about god is the truth , 0 absolutely nothing. Do you think you have the irrefutable argument that humanity have not found in this last 2000 years?

Tell me the bible doesnt give god human qualities… selfish is a human quality ;)… So is god selfish? you will burn in hell for this… Goodness, perfection and selfish doesnt move toghetter. If god is the infinite goodness, why is this world that terrible, evil and unfair? Your answer is: because god is selfish… LOL… We finally agree! Why god need us to believe in him, and pray every sunday? isnt that another selfish action? but wait a moment, god has needs? Then its not that powerful, wich is clearly against god definition…

if you believe in god is because it gives you mental pleasure and less responsability. What is better than believing in something after life? why is that painful the idea that maybe there is just nothing? ask yourself why you believe in Jesus? Because a 2k years book tells you to? Because your parents tells you to? Would you believe in Jesus if he had said that everybody, without exeption, will burn in hell?

You are like this people who discover forex, deposit 500 dollars and plan to become millionaire in 2 month using a ma crossover. The hope of becoming rich doesnt let them use the common sense.
However you will not blow your account, but pay with your mind slavement. Believing in eternal life after death isnt free
Its worth the price?
Not for me.

[Cyco]

People that honestly believe they have a God watching over them do not feel the same need for personal revenge that secular people do.
Obviously we would then never see a strong believer post something like this then: [Quote=PureMuscle] But great, I will take that as encouragement to make certain that I succeed as a forex trader.

The best (and cheapest) way to reduce crime is to have a society of Christians content with their faith

Back to the beginning of this mess in the thread.
Norway – one of the world’s least religious countries has a jail population of 64/100,000
USA – not at the top, but much higher, has a jail population of 715/100,000
Norway also has 44% less class divide, spends 33% less on health care, is 64% more likely to be employed, and has an 83% lower likelihood of having HIV/AIDS

If you read the book in an unbiased manner, you will readily note that the God of the OT is still exactly the same God in the NT. His love and grace are still precisely the same.

So it is a kind, caring, loving, god that sends bears out of the woods to kill children that make fun of a bald man?

1. A historical reference - explanation of the earth’s creation and how man has progressed since then. Note, there is no fact of science that is in conflict with the biblical record of origins.

I’m sorry, but that has to be one of the biggest loads of garbage I’ve ever read.
A short list of branches of science in conflict with the creation story:
Geomorphology, Hydrogeology, Mineralogy, Crystallography, Oceanography, Palaeontology, Petrology, Plate tectonics / Rheology, Volcanology, Sedimentology, Stratigraphy, Seismology, Structural Geology, Geochemistry, Classical Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Electromagnetism, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Anatomy, Biogeography, Bioengineering, Genetics, Immunobiology, Ethonology, and probably some others too.

Not quite no facts.

[TommyL]

European union commision is one ugly site and I had trouble finding the data, so I skipped it for now. If anyone else wants to give a go at it, please do.
European Commission

Europe to be fair is a very regional continent so I don’t think a direct comparison can be gained like for the US & Canada.

Eastern & Western Europe are very different cultures for example.

[PureMuscle]

This debate is going nowhere slowly. I am happy to respectfully leave you guys to your beliefs about Darwinism, evolution etc and I will stick to my beliefs about Jesus Christ. I apologise if I at any time offended any of you guys because I will admit that I do say things out of turn when offended. One way or another, we will all discover truth at some stage in our lives.

There you go, everyone can be happy now and move along in their lives - back to “Political Opinion”.

[pipcompounder]

Back to the beginning of this mess in the thread.
Norway – one of the world’s least religious countries has a jail population of 64/100,000
USA – not at the top, but much higher, has a jail population of 715/100,000
Norway also has 44% less class divide, spends 33% less on health care, is 64% more likely to be employed, and has an 83% lower likelihood of having HIV/AID

You are making my point, the US is going downhill, bigtime. Now, compare those current stats to say, 1948, when the spirit of nationalism was probably at it’s peak in the US, the crime and other bad stats where much lower then. America was recovering after WW2, the economy was setting itself up for a terrific boom, we had woken up a bit to reality. For a bit of time, we were united under our country’s cause. But it didn’t take very long for that to change. America has been deceived, and now we have guys with big solid gold crosses hanging from their necks on national TV, for all the world to see, singing about how they banged their “friend’s” girl (common law wife), and murdered, and stole, and …
Anyways, our culture today just stinks to high heaven. Oxygen is premiering this show, “All my baby’s mothers”, or something like that, where this rapper is going to show what it’s like to live with his 10 “girls” which he had 11 kids, all but 2 of them with different mothers. But is anyone crying polygomy? Not publically…it’s a disgrace.

[wigglez]

Europe to be fair is a very regional continent so I don’t think a direct comparison can be gained like for the US & Canada.

Eastern & Western Europe are very different cultures for example.

That’s fine, we can use different countries in Europe. Doesn’t Europe as a whole have same gun control policies?

From what I’ve read from searching is that Britain and then the UK have highest violent crime rate, both beating out the US by a wide margin. I didn’t find the numbers from an official source though.

[TommyL]

That’s fine, we can use different countries in Europe. Doesn’t Europe as a whole have same gun control policies?

From what I’ve read from searching is that Britain and then the UK have highest violent crime rate, both beating out the US by a wide margin. I didn’t find the numbers from an official source though.

Yes, I would assume that to right and that’s probably why I felt it may distort any European figures. Although like you I have not looked into it in great detail. Only from looking at your post earlier.

[pipcompounder]

Why I like texas…read for yourself, please.

Economy Grows, Revenues Increase After Texas Slashes Spending

[Kevin_LaCoste]

You are making my point, the US is going downhill, bigtime. Now, compare those current stats to say, 1948, when the spirit of nationalism was probably at it’s peak in the US, the crime and other bad stats where much lower then. America was recovering after WW2, the economy was setting itself up for a terrific boom, we had woken up a bit to reality. For a bit of time, we were united under our country’s cause. But it didn’t take very long for that to change. America has been deceived, and now we have guys with big solid gold crosses hanging from their necks on national TV, for all the world to see, singing about how they banged their “friend’s” girl (common law wife), and murdered, and stole, and …
Anyways, our culture today just stinks to high heaven. Oxygen is premiering this show, “All my baby’s mothers”, or something like that, where this rapper is going to show what it’s like to live with his 10 “girls” which he had 11 kids, all but 2 of them with different mothers. But is anyone crying polygomy? Not publically…it’s a disgrace.

The world is much freer now than it was back then. People are free to be stupid. And the govt committed many crimes against its own citizens back then (MK Ultra, Kent State massacre, Watergate, atomic testing, Southern strategy, segregation, Jim Crow laws, anti-abortion laws etc). I like to see the glass as half-full.

[pipcompounder]

The world is much freer now than it was back then. People are free to be stupid. And the govt committed many crimes against its own citizens back then (MK Ultra, Kent State massacre, Watergate, atomic testing, Southern strategy, segregation, Jim Crow laws, anti-abortion laws etc). I like to see the glass as half-full.

Freedom from morals is a very different thing than freedom from a tyrannical government.

[Master_Tang]

I apologise to Clint and whoever else that looks to this thread for political discussions only. I am only defending attacks on my character and on my beliefs. If it could have been moved to a different thread I would gladly have left this one. Apologies for the hijacking.

I have not seen your personal character attacked one single time. Quite the contrary. I Think everyone has been civil despite the vast differences in beliefs.

Having seen countless individuals healed of sicknesses and other ailments before my very eyes, couples who were told that they will never have children get exactly that, divine protection against criminals etc, the list goes on, I think I’ll keep believing in my God and his provision, thanks. If it’s positive thinking achieving all those things, so be it. In my mind God still exists regardless.

I’ve seen people healed of things too. And nobody prayed for them. Not even themselves.

You neglect to mention that God showered Job with exponentially more blessings than he did before the entire incident. Nice. I think again you are misunderstanding the entire purpose behind including such a story in the Bible. I think the same thing happens to people even today, I think you could gain a great deal of insight from a Christian who has been through a huge trial only to come out faithfully praising God and trusting in Him.

I neglected to mention nothing. Yes, god supposedly showered Job after the fact. But what “loving god” would have done that in the first place? That was the point. God isn’t as benevolent and forgiveng in the old testament as he supposedly comes off in the new

So since us humans wrote the Bible and edit it frequently (according to many atheists), why don’t we just take out all those parts in the OT? It would help us win arguments against atheists and other non-believers. Seems strange that we don’t “fix” all these things that are “wrong” with the Bible when according to you guys, that’s all that we ever do.

The only thing “wrong” with the bible is that it’s viewed as cold hard fact.

It does not take a genius to see that God was both loving and benevolent in the OT. In any event, I can see that this argument will never go anywhere because no matter what, most atheists will always read the Bible with a completely one-track mind, focused on finding any reason to discredit it. Unfortunately this includes you as well. If I validate one verse of scripture, you move to the next, going on and on and on until the entire Bible has been “demystified”. Talk about moving the goal-posts the whole time…

Show me where I’ve moved goal posts… I haven’t. Not one single time.

Can I ask you a question? Why are critics of Christianity so hopelessly awful at reading and understanding the Bible?

Judgmental and presumptuous. You know not about what I’ve read, nor my beliefs.

[quote=“PureMuscle,post:887,topic:42247”]

Peter and Paul did not hate each other, if you can prove otherwise I’d be happy to agree with you. The dispute between Peter and Paul revolved around one simple issue - Peter was called to preach the gospel of Jesus to the Jews, Paul was called to preach the same gospel to the Gentiles. Peter (for a while) incorrectly believed that the gospel pertained to Jews only (he somehow missed all of Jesus’ teachings to the contrary). Thankfully, he was subsequently corrected not only by Paul, but by God in Acts 11:1 - The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”
Starting from the beginning, QUOTE]

Yes I know the story. Peter was accused by Paul of being hypocritical. They had more than that single dust up though. Peter wasn’t fond of associating in any sort with the “circumcised”. It caused a fairly large rift at the time.

If you would do yourself a favour and actually read the Bible, you’ll see that Paul and Peter’s teachings are PRECISELY THE SAME. The ONLY difference between them is what I pointed out before, Peter thought it was for Jews only. Where you come up with the idea that these 2 people hated each other is a mystery to perhaps even the most exceptional theologian.

I didn’t say “HATE” I said practically hated. There was no love there. They had singularly different views of things.
And once again, you presume to know what I have, or in this case have not read.

Are you kidding me? It is becoming clear that you too are another one of the “insult the Bible without actually having ever read it” brigade. Was Jesus a Catholic? Were his disciples Roman Catholics? Did they follow the traditions applied by Catholics today (repenting before a priest, appointing a Pope, making virgin Mary into a saint?) - I think not. If I am not mistaken, the very first Christian “church” in the universal sense was founded by none other than Jesus’ disciples. I cannot see a single reference to Catholicism even once throughout the entire Bible. I dare say you should be the one to “look it up”. The Roman Catholic Church was created by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester in the year 314 A.D. Thing is, oh, 2 centuries after Christ?

Try again. It’s not about what Jesus, or the apostles did, or didn’t do, it’s about what transpired with what they did after they were gone.

The Catholics are convinced that Jesus himself was the founder of the church, and Peter was the first bishop. And 313 wasn’t the founding of the church, it was when christianity was legislated as an accepted church by Constantine.

Not sure what you are talking about here. I said Christians are free from sin. Apologies for the ambiguity. Perhaps I should rather have said “Christians are free from the grip of sin on our lives”. Everyone is guilty of sin. As an atheist, you are not concerned with the Bible so of course you can call yourself “sin-less”. That is your prerogative. Whether or not you are actually right, well, I guess only time can tell.

Better answer than usual. It’s a bit more forgiving.

Nice. So you’re of exactly the same mind as mastergunner. Can you please provide me with some kind of evidence that the Bible as it stands today is inaccurate and different from earlier versions?

Translations have always been difficult. The inaccuracies start there. But technically there are two different versions of the bible. The Christian bible, and the protestant bible. That’s the one you are using. It’s missing books. 7 to be exact.

I’m intrigued by your statement that a non-denominational church still has a core belief system. If you are referring to our belief in Christ, then correct. Let’s take an extreme “spin-off” example, a Lesbian and Gay church. Do they accept the Bible in it’s entirety or do they manipulate it to suit their man-made beliefs? Mormons - do they take the Bible as the only word of God? No, they have their own separate “guide” which suits their beliefs. I’m struggling to see any fact in your contention.

How can any gathering of any group of people be something without borders? There’s always a common thread.

And as for the Mormons, no, they do not expressly use their own book. They follow the bible. Closely. Closer than most evengelicals as a matter of fact.

I’m done with this topic too. Should someone open a “religion” thread I may, or may not join in. Kind of pointless. At the heart of it, I’m out to change no one’s beliefs. Those are personal, and deep seated. It’s more about the close mindedness, and absolute blinded belief exhibited by most Christians.

I know… I was raised one. I’ve read the bible cover to cover many times. The more I read, the more I found inconsistencies.
Of course true believers will again say there are no inconsistencies. That the word is perfect.

I beg to differ.

[Master_Tang]

The world is much freer now than it was back then. People are free to be stupid. And the govt committed many crimes against its own citizens back then (MK Ultra, Kent State massacre, Watergate, atomic testing, Southern strategy, segregation, Jim Crow laws, anti-abortion laws etc). I like to see the glass as half-full.

Nothing has changed. Look at the overreaction in OWS.

One could make the argument that the freedom we now possess has allowed the greatest atrocities ever to be perpetrated upon us. Why is nobody in jail for the banking crisis? They threw all kinds of people in jail back in the 70s with the savings and loan scandals. Those paled in comparison to what GS, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, AIG, and the rest of those thugs did.

Jon Corzine isn’t even in jail…