I’m hoping we can keep this thread along the lines of “What does it do”, and is it worth the effort or not ?
There are of course arguments on Both sides and perhaps our MPs who want so desperately to save our country by Keeping us safe and sound inside, can see things we can’t ?
There are other places where the Remainers can shout at the Brexiteers and vice versa. The Intention is that we can examine the reality as grown ups, and discuss it nicely !
Yes we all know were I stand, but I am well aware that most people really don’t have much idea what it’s all about - even those who go to the bother of going on marches.
Now a little Game. There are several “Commissioners” and others in the EU who are paid MORE than the British Prime Minister
Now here is a Documentary from 2016 giving the History of the EU and how it works. It is just over an hour long and is very informative.
Anyone who is interested, but wants to know a bit more in the UK, or in the EU cannot really know without watching it and I would highly recommend it for USA and all other countries
Anyways, i dont see any reason why brexit should be debated about in the form of “is it good or bad for the UK?”
from all i know it stands as this:
Youre leaving
So please. Leave finally. Thats not my opinion, its the opinion of an entire continent. Get it over with, there are other things that need to be adressed. Stop debating, stop arguing - just leave.
If you do a research on the source and who made the video you will see it is nothing more than advertising for one side. It is not unbiased and it does not reflect the reality.
Why do you start a thread about the EU and then immediately start going on about Brexit and talking about the UK’s PM’s salary??? Who cares what the UK PM earns? What has that got to do with the EU? If there is something wrong with the EU salary structure then the EU will deal with that. It is not your problem any more!
If you want to talk about the EU then fine, do so. But if you want to again keep talking about Brexit and why the EU is so bad and why the UK should leave then this thread is about 4 years too late (and maybe actually about 50 years too late!).
Brexit is old news, it is done except for some paperwork and sorting out the aftermath. The EU has moved on, we don’t even talk about you any more. Why can’t the UK just do the same and pay its exit fees and just leave? You people keep going on about how well you are going to do after departure - no one really doubts that, its fine, it is what the UK should do and will do - so just do it!
To be honest, most EU people have always considered the UK a thorn in the side. It should never have joined in the first place. It didn’t want Schengen, it didn’t want the Euro - and these were all right decisions! Why? Because the UK is different and has never, in a spiritual sense, been an integral part of “continental” Europe.
It has its own historical legacy from its colonial days and it has a big role in the enormous family called the Commonwealth (no less than 53 countries including some of the biggest and smallest nations across all continents), and it has the biggest, wealthiest and probably most active and independent royal family in the world. As a free nation you can make trade agreements with anyone you like, alone, independently. And as the fifth largest economy in the world you can negotiate very fine agreements (except maybe with the US!).
So just go and do it! Why do you want to open this kind of thread as a thinly veiled attempt to continue running down the EU to bolster and justify your decision for leaving us? You have already left! Just get on with! If there are still internal arguments in the UK about whether to leave or not, then keep it domestic! That is your internal problem and for the UK to sort out. EU-bashing has been a long-redundant weapon for that cause.
The EU has its own problems, for sure, and will struggle to readjust its budgets and spending priorities as a result of the UK departure. But you are no longer part of our woes or our pride or our achievements. The EU is still held in high regard by the community populations and it still has a lot to offer its member states. It is a region that will grow economically and securely within a rich and diverse cultural inheritance.
But if your intentions here are simply to take pot shots at your former partners as you sail away to new frontiers, then I think that is actually rather sordid - but maybe I am totally wrong and you really wish to just talk about the EU in an objective and balanced manner and from a totally non-UK perspective - then great! Let’s do it!
What is the EU about? - I’ll give my own experience (shortened).
Ireland in the 60’s did not experience a post war boom, it experienced emigration - young males went to either England or US to seek work (including my father & uncles - some never returned).
Roads were poor, no motorways, infrastructure networks were from the 40’s.
Public phone booths were few - I went into one in the late 70’s - there was no dial, just a receiver and a whirly handle like I’d seen in the movies - the phone no. I required was for the only factory for miles around - it’s number turned out to be “Ballyjamesduff one” - a single digit.
When i arrived at the factory office I could see a number of these same phones on desks - all with their whirly handles and no dial.
Ireland had joined the EEC in '73 but it was meaningless, nothing much had changed, a couple of my older brothers joined my uncles, I was thinking of doing likewise.
By the 1980’s the economic outlook remained bleak - a recession had hit the US and then UK, NI war was out of control, hope especially for young people was non-existent.
Then in the mid 90’s there was something new. Large roadside billboards with a previously unseen circle of stars on a blue background proclaiming “This project is being part-financed by the EU” could be seen alongside new road-building and water/sewer works.
Multi-wire telegraph lines were being replaced with thicker single wires to accommodate new tone dialing phone systems. Houses were being built thus the need for water.
All this was in the Republic, in NI the war continued but now there was something called PEACE 1 being funded by this entity called EU.
The rest is history - the founding of the EU and the single market in 1993 transformed Ireland, money was invested into infrastructure and crucially education - young people, well educated, could now find employment at home.
Now in the 21st century Ireland is a net contributor to the EU, emigration has turned into immigration changing the country and the economy into an ‘open’ economy and society.
Peace has come to NI, it’s still fledgling and at sometimes shaky, but it’s here.
The story can be summed up on a chart - Irish GDP:
But its not only about the GDP or economical gains.
Its just so much more to be part in.
China isnt affraid of berlin, paris or london when they have a dispute, but china is affraid of brussels when berlin,paris or london is angry at china.
Same goes for washington.
Thats just economical/political wise.
What do you think is the reason of washington/trump bashing brussels constantly? Because brussels is easy to manipulate?
What do you think is trumps reason to love boris and the brexit so much? Ill tell you, he sees an opportunity to easily manipulate 65 million people after they left the “unmanipulative big block which isnt bending to his/american wills”
Where is the rest? I can go to spain and open a company. I can move there within one day. It feels like spain is my home even thou ive never been there.
You fly from new york to the carribean and all out of the sudden at airport you see a sign saying “welcome to the european union”.
You can move to the carribean spend your retirement there if you like.
You can move to france without any paperwork.
You can move to croatia buy a house there enjoy life. Open business. Italy. Portugal.
And you know whats funny about that? There are “colonies” of old people moved to south european countries spending their retirement there, the rest of their lives. Do the locals call them strangers? NO they call them “our new neibours”!
Call me an idiot but i can tell you one thing. Younger generations like mine (35) we dont see europe as a big bunch of conflicting countries. We see europe as one. We dont see what differs us from other countries in the EU, we see what unites us, where we are similar/same, and i can tell you the differences are so tiny compared to the similarities- you really need to be obsessed with the differences to even see them. We see poland as our country even thou weve never been to poland. Same for italy france etc. Their problems are our problems their jobs are our jobs their home is our home and it goes the other way around.
Since the EU came closer together the EU spirit is strengthening extremely in the younger geberations. I can stil remember a border between france and germany, between “yugoslavia” and italy/austria. But people only 10 years younger than me dont even know the concept of a border between those countries. Half a million germans moved to elsas-france in the last few years cause houses are cheaper and tax is lower - and their workplace in germany is only 10km from them without any border inbetween.
And heres another graph as people like graphs
As you can see since the introduction of the closer EU in the 1980ies the growth outpaced the US by far.
As you can see, since the introduction of the (2000-2002) EURO how much the EU economy has outpaced the US. Only the 2008 crisis made a stop to that. But that crisis is now over and you can guess what the next 20 years will look like in growth with the EU.
In my own country I’ve witnessed the barriers come down, and it’s Europe wide.
In early 2000 I was able to leave N Ireland, travel to Dublin, then to England, Then to France and finally to Spain without being stopped by an officer in uniform.
The most poignant reminder of the customs borders is in Le Perthus in the Pyrenees - the town straddles Spain and France - it’s a shared space but down at the bottom of the town the checkpoint huts remain as a reminder of what was - they are now empty:
In a community comprising 27 countries it is clear that there is an overriding need for compromise on many things. And compromise always means that some people are satisfied with decisions and others are not.
Perhaps one of the biggest issues in the EU is whether the trend should be more towards a federal state network, similar to the US structure, or whether to maintain a significant degree of sovereignty within each nation that belongs to the Union.
Personally, I like the present balance where economic and fiscal policies and guidelines are agreed centrally and applied locally within each country. This way the Union is more likely to retain and promote a steady and uniform progress throughout the entire region. Any exceptions and problems are then addressed by the EU as a whole as in the case of Greece, Ireland and Spain. Of course, nothing works perfectly and there are always problems that crop up along the way.
Without a unified approach to monetary and fiscal policies and objectives (such as inflation and interest rates), it would be difficult, if not impossible to maintain a single currency in the form of the Euro. In the past tactics such as devaluations in currencies compensated structural changes in economic wealth, salaries, etc. But that is impossible with a single currency and therefore the impact of different environments would tend to appear in the migration of investment funds, businesses and workforces from one country to another.
The issue of migration is perhaps one of the strongest and most visible reasons why the UK could not comfortably work within the EU structure, especially since it has become an issue of large-scale asylum-seekers in addition to workers seeking better conditions. This is, of course, still a major issue for the EU itself and certainly raises national interests within the overall union structure.
I also like the attempt to balance unity and uniformity in some areas whilst retaining individual cultural and identity in others. Whilst I appreciate the value and advantages of the single currency, it was much more fun trading DEM FRF, NLG as well as GBP back in the day…
And, considering my interest in bank notes, sadly, gone are the days of the beautiful French style notes like this:
Hi @Falstaff. If you would prefer this to be a discussion of:
" UK V. EU What’s it all about"
That would be fine with me and currently very topical as Boris Johnson makes his first meetings with Merkel and Macron this week?
But if so, then maybe we could edit the thread title to reflect that?
I just didn’t see the value in talking about EU27 as it moves forward (as the current title suggests) through the inevitably biased, probably over-emotional, and possibly acrimonious and bitter binoculars of the exiting UK.
Dunno @anon46773462, I had hoped we could have a grown up discussion, but I’m not sure we can actually.
Evidence presented is either +Brexit or -Brexit and there is actually very little out there giving a moderate view of the EU and it’s Institutions.
I understand your objections in your first post and you have some valid points. Why should I make some feel uncomfortable in their situation ?
I think when you look at some of the posts from “remainers” and “Others” on this thread and others, It feels a little as though they’ve been dropping “Soma” (Huxley).
In fact it seems there is a feeling of optimism among those posting that we had a way back in the '60s
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Insofar as "Love is all you need" and yet oddly the “love” only seems to extend to those who are also on the “Soma” and the drive to silence and ridicule anyone who offers the “Red Pill” is met with is remarkable.
In fact we (Uk is still “in” atm) are a conglomeration of many different cultures, languages, traditions and very different economies analogous perhaps with this ;
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Well in the '60’s, the logical if unpalatable truth was that the Hippies formed communes - wherein the children were treated as “communal property” and oft nobody even knew who their Fathers were - it was “unimportant” (although in reality - HUGELY important to the children as they grew up)
THe Communes eventually just petered out and “San Francisco” is now regarded by many as a drug infested place and one most people would not want to live in.
THe “Love culture” turned to the “Fat Wallet” - “ME-me-me” time of the 80’s
I do not say this will happen to the EU - I simply point out that the “Law of Unintended Consequences” is one of the most powerful of all natural “Laws”.
To me the “European Economic Community” which was ALL we voted to join back then - has turned into a Protectionist organisation and built Tariff walls around itself, to protect inefficiency.
Then as the “ever closer union” philosophy started to come about - some would say by subterfuge - some countries began to have doubts - In fact GreenLand was an early leaver and left the “EEC” in the '80’s (Well they had a LOT of fish, they thought they would rather keep for themselves)
For some of us, we foresee Huxleys “Soma” turning imperceptibly into Orwell’s “Big Brother”.
Just now there are a Lot of the countries of the EU who seem less optimistic and whose populations are voting ever more firmly for those who would leave. Some advocate “Reform from within”
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Well I wish those who wish to do so, all the best.
Sadly I think Orbison said it
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Maybe those who hate us - will get their wish - we’ll see !
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Reform from within is certainly a desirable and indeed necessary process if a community is to remain tuned in to an ever more rapidly changing world. There is nothing radical or new about that.
In the same way, and from the same process, the UK has made its choice and all that is left is to decide upon what basis it leaves. It has created a precedent and model that can be used in the future if other countries decide to do the same. But so far no other country has formally initiated such action despite an obvious period of deep introspection by all other members concerning their own role and suitability within the EU community.
It is a sign of a perfectly healthy structure that all opinions can be expressed and heard and that a system exists to consider all proposals. There are many major changes taking place amongst senior people of influence within the EU administration and that is also fine. The key issue though is that the institutions for decision-making are allowed to function as they are intended and that members adhere to decisions made.
On the whole that is still the case, although there are signs of stress on some edges such as the Italian approach to budget deficits. But a more optimistic view would be that testing the boundaries only serves to reinforce them - or identify necessary changes. EIther result is a sign of healthy development and response to changing needs.
The EU is unlikely to crack under the strain of some fixed, antiquated system - like some tree that fails to lean with the wind - that fails to recognise the need for evolution until it is too late and evolution becomes revolution - such as one could describe the situation in Hong Kong. But the process of change is not always a smooth and obvious direction and compromise is a serious necessity all the way.
I do not share your pessimism regarding these issues and see them as opportunities rather than threats. And I really think the populations of the EU have moved on a long way from the social waves of the 60’s - 80’s which were an era already some 40-60 years back. Woodstock was the USA as was Easy Rider. But even though White Rabbit is still one of my favourite songs, it certainly does not influence my observations of the EU today and even the iconic Peter Fonda is now history.
Things do change, its only whether we see them or not - and through which lenses.
Farage, Borris, Mogg and all their right wing Tory brethren will not be missed from Europe.
They really don’t represent the majority of decent ‘British’ people and after the next election which Sir Kier Starmer and a reformed Labour Party will win by a landslide, Britain will re apply to join to community. That right wing rump in England will be banished by decent people, just like Trump and his white supremacists will be flushed down the drain of eternity where they belong with all the other sewer rats.
