The shooter is responsible, but I will say that man has created weapons solely to kill each other, they even created a weapon that can eradicate a country if necessary.
Man is the problem, he is slowly self-destructing
From the beginning, man has never wanted to be held accountable for his behavior, if he had his way, he would get rid of all laws, making self destruction sooner rather than later, the animal world has no repercussion until you kill a human, therefore the human must kill the animal.
There is nothing more frightening than repercussions, whether knowingly or unknowingly
I was also actually going to add this very example to my above post but I thought, no, Iâve already written too much! So thanks for adding it! 
Indeed, where should we apportion blame? These kinds of situations are not always so clear cut. As you said above:
But what about the child who takes a loaded gun from their parentâs drawer and shoots someone, or someone who the courts declare mentally unstable and unable to be held accountable for their own acts?
I am sure most people will agree with you that it is all about âpersonal responsibilityâ but how then do we deal with that in Christianity where Paul tells us that:
" For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
So, in effect, the Christian god has ensured that nobody could achieve a state of righteousness by their own efforts and that everyone will be a sinner. So who is ultimately responsible for sin here?
But the issue with all those examples of guns, vehicles and religion is not ultimately âwho is responsibleâ but what is the âgreater goodâ behind them that justifies their acceptance.
We accept vehicles and (to a wide extent) weapons in principle, in spite of the personal misuse of these from time to time, because we see a benefit from them that overrides the occasional problem. And in those cases we hold just the individual transgressor to blame.
But whenever a single, individual,misdeed is uncovered in the church people are quick to damn the entire god/religion/church existence and often all those that support and participate in it. The difference in this instance, I suspect, is that for these broadsweep condemnations, there is no âgreater goodâ surpassing it. I.e. those that damn the entire spiritual issue do not have a belief in god.
So, it seems, once again, god is actually the problem here! 
Another issue here:
I certainly agree with you here, and I am sure most people do.
But how then do we reconcile this with the surrogate sacrifice of the bible Jesus whose spilled blood wiped away all the sins that have been done, are being done, and will be done? (on the condition of faith in him).
Of course, intially, one might sigh a great sense of relief. But after that, does not oneâs conscious start to twist in oneâs acknowledgement of oneâs own guilt? Is it right and just that someone else should pay for my wrongs?
Afterall, we are all for âpersonal responsibilityâ, are we not?
Or does the answer to that lie in the above verse that god actually forced us to do it - and since god and Jesus are one and the same within that complicated concept of the Trinity, god ultimately paid for it himself.
Oh dear, now that is drifting into a strange theology that has no place here, I think! But, again, just goes to show that, yes, god, perhaps, really is the problem! 
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I think you are overly complicating things, Jesus said " love thy neighbor as you would love yourself" If we all did that, everything else would take care of itself
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It is inevitable that some will love the notion that God exists, while some will hate the notion that God exists. I let people be themselves because it eliminates bad feelings toward some who believe as they wish and keeps me strong in my own beliefs. This debate could last for eternity
âIn a show of tensions, a memorial march for Nahel M., a teen of North African descent, ended with riot police firing tear gas as several cars were set alight in the Paris suburb where he was killedâŚâ
The usual calm, measured and rational response from followers of a particular faithâŚ
Once again one form or another religion is front and center when trouble is brewingâŚ
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Are they rioting for religious reasons, or is it just you who is bringing religion into the mix for personal reasons?
When the Yellow Vest riots occurred, which were primarily Christians would you bring religion into the mix?
Riots shake France after police shoot teenager
PARIS (Reuters) - Riots have convulsed France after police shot dead a teenager of North African descent at a traffic stop in a Paris suburb.
Here are some of the factors behind the unrest:
WHO IS THE VICTIM?
The 17-year-old who died on Tuesday has been identified only as Nahel. His mother is Algerian and father Moroccan, according to an acquaintance of the family. He was known to police for previous incidents in which he failed to comply with traffic stops, the local prosecutor Pascal Prache said.
https://news.yahoo.com/explainer-riots-shake-france-police-155316837.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Why Do People Often Use Religion to Justify Sin?
Individuals may also use religion to excuse their sins. Appealing to religion, specifically Christianity, people will often try to distract people from their apparent sin and appeal to other teachings of Christianity that seem to encourage non-judgmental attitudes.
People often use religion to justify sin for many different reasons. A person may try to pass the blame by using religion, attempt to fool God through âreligiousâ acts, or use religious teachings and practices to divert attention away from their acts and to justify their wrongdoing.
While the issue may be complex, the Bible clearly and repeatedly condemns sin and never commands evil. Instead, God will justly deal with those who use religion, especially Christianity, as a cover-up for their unrighteous acts.
Why Justify Sin?
From the earliest time, humans have made excuses for their sins. At the temptation in the Garden of Eden, Eve reasoned away the act of disobedience, noting that âthe fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdomâ (Genesis 3:6, NIV).
However, when God demanded an account from Adam and Eve, each of them passed the blame to others. Adam made an excuse about Eve giving him the fruit (Genesis 3:12). Likewise, Eve blamed the serpent (Genesis 3:13). Adam and Eve did not take responsibility for their actions but attempted to justify their sin to God.
Humans today continue to try to explain or rationalize away their sins. Instead of recognizing the evil inside of them (Romans 3:10-18), people attempt to justify wrongdoing through philosophy, environmental factors, or poor upbringing.
Mankind regularly uses religion to justify their sin as well. It is easier to blame someone else or use religion as an excuse for an unrighteous act than to take responsibility and repent.
I agree with youâŚBUT 
(there is always a âbutâ in this type of discussion! ) are you not overly âsimplifyingâ things?
That little âifâ word is a major conditional! Fine, if we did do all that, but we donât!
I donât think the world has been in such a terrible state since the last world war.
We donât need to list all the obvious international issues stretching from China, North Korea, Taiwan, Russia, through the EU, UK, and Nordic areas through to the US. Nor do we need to specify all the problems associated with asylum-seekers on so many international borders - why they are driven there, what they find when they get there and how many donât even make it there. And then, we donât need to list all the social issues of poverty, homelessness, crime, disease, religion, domestic problems, mental and physical difficulties, etc, etc. All of these would and could be resolved with that big "IF".
Sure, we can just focus on our own families, neighbours and close friends - but these are not immune to, or isolated from, the bigger risks and fears.
Personally, I agree. But then I donât personally have a religion. If I did, then I would have to ask would this actually be enough?
Surely religion is ultimately concerned with the next world, not this one? So would just being the âgood guyâ still be enough? At least from the Christian angle, as I understand it, the entry ticket is just faith, not deeds.
I find from the bible a lot of inspiration concerning how to live a good life and I apply that as far as I can. But I donât have an entry ticket in my back pocket. Iâve never been given one and I no longer even expect one. But I am at peace with that and I just do my bit, albeit so very small, to make this world a better place.
Afterall, as Paul says:
âBut who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? âShall what is formed say to the one who formed it, âWhy did you make me like this?â ââ Romans 9:20
Thanks for your responses @Dennis3450, I truly have appreciated them. But I think this is the time for me to leave this thread for others to continueâŚ
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I often think about the âentry ticketâ at the gates.
Speaking yesterday to a man who recently had one of those near death - heâs a welder by trade.
âFirst thing I noticed was that the gates could do with a lick of paintâ .
Anyways seems the bar isnât as high as many make out - the âgood thiefâ acknowledged that he had committed crime warranting execution but all he had to say was âJesus, remember meâ to be guaranteed entry through the gates.
There is a lot in that small interaction on that first Good Friday.
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Yes, I have read a number of books about such cases, mostly accounts from surgeons with patients that clinically die during an operation but are revived - and tell of their experiences during the period of death. Quite fascinating stuff!
A touch of dark humour here - if the gates were that worn, are we certain just whose gates we are looking at here? Sorry, just an attempt at a joke! 
But isnât this the core example of faith itself being the only (narrow) path? Neither sin nor good deeds count towards the entry ticket no matter how many or how good/bad they might be? Just faith alone.
But, at least for me, does that not, in itself, place the bar incredibly high? We cannot just choose to believe without the âdoorâ also being opened from the other side, otherwise we may as well all say we âbelieveâ simply on a âjust in caseâ basis! - and then just carry on life as we normally would, pacified by the thought that death is only a railway junction and not a terminusâŚ
Sometimes faith as small as a mustard seed is all it takes
You seem to be the one placing that bar high
Sometimes faith as small as a mustard seed is all it takes
Best wishes, I hope you find your answers
Well I guess its height is relative to oneâs own spiritual stature. Mine is that of a dwarf.
There are those that sit pretty within their marshmallow faith, speak it but do nothing. And then there are those that live their faith and speak nothing.
The Jesus of the bible is indeed a person of love - but he is no marshmallow:
" I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarmâneither hot nor coldâI am about to spit you out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16
(wow! 
)
If faith is that real then it is certainly worth taking seriously and not just for intellectual theoretical theological debate. Afterall, as they say, for religion, death is where the rubber finally hits the roadâŚ
Thank you. Indeed, we can and should wish this on everyone universallyâŚ
All the best, @Dennis3450 (P.S: I also like your thread!)
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For me this is key thinking.
We tend to think of God as pertaining only whilst our body is living and that when it dies God somehow changes - yet the Bible says He never changes.
Faith is trust - the entry ticket, same for the good thief - itâs our spirit that trusts and the spirit doesnât die.
Imagine ( a gift from Spirit) meeting Jesus not on that 1st Friday but today because my body died and being aware of my shortcomings - not unlike the good thief - as a trader Iâll bet Jesusâs answer will be the same.
Why would I take that trade? - likely because when I wrestled with these questions He answered simply âthe Father and I are oneâ.
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Yes, this is another interesting issue. Our bodies do not actually only die once, its cells are dying and regenerating all the time:
âOn average, the cells in your body are replaced every 7 to 10 years . But those numbers hide a huge variability in lifespan across the different organs of the body. Neutrophil cells (a type of white blood cell) might only last two days, while the cells in the middle of your eye lenses will last your entire life.â
And yet our being, personality, identity, conscience, memories, etc are continuous. So it seems that at least something âin hereâ isnât dying with those cells!
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Thatâs our spirit - the image and likeness - unchanging and undying.
Yet there is an element of spirit that is important - a trader thinks and then chooses - imagines the outcome - Adam got that same spirit, was breathed into him - nowadays called âfreeâ choice.
Choices are far from free - Adam chose to say no, not your will but mine when faced with temptation - Jesus chose to say not My will but Yoursâs when faced with the opposite to temptation.
All easy talk I know whereas life is far from easy - but maybe, just maybe God is not the problem - is it possible that the problem lies right here.
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Yes, life is excruciatingly difficult for so many people, and yet Jesus says his burden is light.
It is a strange thing that the three main religions in the world: Judaism, Christianity and Islam cover the majority of the worldâs population and yet all three are based on Jerusalem and on the same one individual, Abraham. The first two on his son Isaac and the third, Islam, on his son Ishmael. At least, that is my understanding.
And yet where one would expect to see unity amongst these three, there is more commonly trouble and animosity.
Are we then to believe this is how these gods want it or is this purely a human misunderstanding? Either way, it could be a lot easier to sort, but it isnât. So I guess that puts the ball back in godâs court.
He could be a little more overt, a touch more transparent, and answer the prayer âphoneâ a little more distinctly instead of leaving so many people feeling that they are praying into a cell phone with no SIM card!
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Aye, had a few arguments with Him on that front.
First time I confronted cancer figured a miracle wld ensue - cancer gone with a whoosh.
Didnât happen - yet when I asked for a sign I got it - thru what He made - the universe.
Second time round as a trader the chances were light (3%) still my focus was I would be OK
Anyways here is a test - most times we disregard His thought - imagine tomorrow we see something - maybe an advert - one thing that that stirs our spjrit.
Ask you will receive
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That must have been a very difficult time. I can only imagine the anguish you felt at the time.
I have known and heard of a number of people that claim a miracle healing in spite of medical disbelief. But there are far more that have prayed and sought intercessory prayer from others only to find them falling on holy deaf ears!
Christians are urged to always pray for others and that includes healing. But healing is also a specific Gift of the Spirit only granted to certain individuals. I have often wondered what the difference isâŚ
I think I am far to guided by logic and a sense of analytical pragmatism to ever get anywhere with these things. My wife often moans why canât I just sometimes accept it as it comes? I think maybe I should start a thread here entitled â can an engineer ever get to heavenâ
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Thank you for being open minded, sorry I didnât meant to disrespect anyoneâs belief.
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