The VIPER Couch

                                               WHY IS TRADING SO HARD
                                                           OR
                                       WHY CAN’T WE ALL BE “MAUD’DIB”

A while back I had a lively conversation with one of the regulars here, let’s call him B, about the difference between Trading and any other business. His point was the “stress” level of running a regular business was the same in both instances. Of course I disagreed, and still do, undoubtedly, he still disagrees with me. I guess the “to each his own” viewpoint could apply in this case, but there is a difference between this discussion and many others that the “to each his own” axiom could apply. We are discussing Trading and not whether to open a “Sports Clips” or “Dominos” franchise. In today’s environment, losing thousands of dollars, including ones retirement savings, emergency account, etc. is very easy. With the advent of Online Brokers and the memory of everybody and their brother making big bucks “online trading” in the Nineties, the reality of losing one’s shirt in a couple of weeks or even days has become not just a possibility but even inevitable in some cases. We have discussed this before, but it may be time to put a bit of a different spin on the subject to help all to gain a clearer understanding of what we are up against, in terms of how this can play out emotionally. So with this said let’s look at an example everyone can relate to, that of being a “Cabbie”

The Cabbie

Most Cabbies operate in a fairly competitive market. In the US they have to continually market their services, they have to be where there are fares to pick up, and have the ability to drop them off in a timely fashion. The fare price is usually the same between providers, and in some instances regulated by the Gov’t. They have the cost of Maintenance on the vehicle, fuel, insurance, licenses, and of course their salaries. Within this scope they also market to bring in more fixed business rather than just relying on random fares. For instance when I blew out my left calf muscle trying to push start a friend’s car, for the next 5 months a private taxi had contracted with my insurance company to bring me back and forth to the Dr. and therapy appointments. The cabbie knew exactly how much they would make for each trip, and by calculating the costs and income they can estimate their profit. This is very simple, and apart from the Gov’t regulations, very straight forward. The cabbie can also increase profits by looking in the seats for “Lost Change”. So there you have it, a service with known costs, and known profits per length of trip.

Now let’s turn this on its head.

First, you are a cabbie, but you never know how much you will make per trip, also, there are some trips that you will end up paying the customer and additional Gov’t fees. So think of this, the last fare that you took looked really good, well dressed, business type and he was picked up across from Lex van Dam’s place in the city. So as you stop to drop the fare off, you look at the meter and it says you must pay the fare/client 200 bucks and the Gov’t 95cents, so you fork over the money. Now how do you think you would approach the next fare, all happy and positive, ready to “rumble?” Not very likely, so you pick up your next fare and low and behold when you drop this one off the meter says they must pay you 800 bucks and of course the Gov’t gets its 95cents. So it goes, until you hit a time when you have five or six fares that you have to pay out, and of course the loss is immediate, and not of a five year or so horizon. How would you react, how would this affect your personal life? If you came home not only with an empty pocket, but lost money for the day, again I ask how would this affect your personal life???

This dear reader is the point, you never know how a trade will turn out until you book the profit, and that makes it different than the average money making endeavor. According to statistics, the majority of new businesses fail in the first five years, well that is about five years longer than it takes for a trader to Fail/Blowup. In trading there are no actual price negotiations, for example, a dog walker with Ten dogs hails a taxi and the driver negotiates with the “walker” for a higher rate because of the dogs. You can’t say to your broker,” well the price is 1.0867, I really don’t like the 10 announcements coming out today, so I will buy at that price but you have to guarantee me 100 bucks”, hah, have fun with that. Also once you put a trade on, you can’t take it back, whether you are profitable or not, at this point at least, it is out of your hands. This loss of control of destiny (Profit or Not) can, if not controlled by the trader, result in serious damage to ones Psyche, and a string of losses also can do even more damage. That is why we keep telling people, “be careful, this is different”, “Your job is to defend capital” “The losses and gains can affect your emotions, causing a serious unbalance in your thinking if you let it”. But some people do not listen.

Professionally, I come from an automotive repair background; I have been a technician, service writer, service manager, and finally an entrepreneur, running my own foreign car shop. So I know the stresses of running a small business. But it is still very different than trading. If I wanted to increase my Mercedes customers, I would run a free service special, with fliers placed on the windows of Benzes in front of our local Macy’s, Lord and Taylors, etc. I would scrape so much business off of that old windbag Braman, that I laughed all the way to the bank, oops, sorry, reliving the old glory days. In trading, who in the world are you going to market to ??? How do you increase sales and profits ??? You see, we told you it was different.

Now of course if you live in one of the areas of the U.S. that is an economic shambles, Ohio, Upstate New York, Detroit, I can imagine the killer stress trying to run a business when there is no business, but at some point you need to say “Let’s go somewhere else where we can make a buck”, so it’s not the business it is the area/environment. So no “Trading” comparisons can be fairly used in this type of circumstance.

Now having said this, it does not mean that it is impossible to trade retail; you just have to recognize that this is totally different than anything you have done before. You must be prepared to learn many lessons about yourself that you thought you would never learn. Unfortunately there is nothing that can prepare you for this; the only way to learn is to do. Like learning to play a musical instrument, you can have all of the theory you want, but until you sit behind that ’58 B3 with the 142 Leslie, you will never know if you really can play. So you learn to trade small amounts to control the losses, this helps us to get acclimated to the different world we are in, without worrying about blowing up. Done properly, you will learn many lessons that will; over a period of time help you gain perspective and consistency in your trading.

The Ever Learning VIPER

10 Likes

What an incredible post - the next time I get asked "what is it you do and why do you think it’s stressful sat in front of your PC " - i’m printing this out.

Thanks Bud, I appreciate it. I think this distills trading down to it’s essence, especially if you are in a small “Boutique” fund, or trading your own money. It is not easy, in fact, Mrs. VIPER and I have been married for 34 yrs, and my marriage was a billion times easier than trading. I know it’s not taking fire in Kandahar, or walking a beat in Baltimore, but outside of combat and police work, and of course firefighter, it is the most stressful job you could have.

Oh, I know a guy that worked in the CME Pits in the '80s, 32 yrs old, had a massive stroke on the floor, it took out his complete left side, he barely made it. Eventually bought some beach-side cabins in Nokomis Fla. But the deal was, he would never be the same after that stroke. If your not Careful this job will kill you.

The Ever Careful/Cautious VIPER

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                                               I HATE MY JOB
                                                     or
                                   "For The Want of the Price of Tea"
                                                     or
                                             “Nothing Is Easy”

I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this from people and read it online. “I hate my job” “I need to find a new job, I have become one of the oppressed masses”, I even had someone whom I will call Ed, send me an e-mail begging to confirm that a particular “Guru” and his “System” really works. The reason that Ed was so desperate, as he explained, was that he was running out of his unemployment benefits and needed to find a way to make money, he said that he could not go back to the work he was doing, because the people in his industry were lying backstabbers, etc, etc, etc… When I told him that the Guru’s system was profitable about 50% of the time, and during the profitable times it would never make up the negative equity from the poor risk ratio it had + fees, he blow up on me, and it got worse when I suggested that he try something basic that had worked for traders for years, he then got down right uncontrollable, accusing me of wanting to sell him my “system”, and that this world is horrible, and I was horrible, etc. Oh, by the way the system I was going to suggest to him was very similar to the “Three Ducks”, also because of NDA’s I couldn’t give away my system let alone sell it. It was a very sad and unsettling experience for me. I learned from this that people can get so desperate, and hopeless that they feel as if they are drowning, and like a drowning person, they start grasping at whatever they can, including trading.

Most do not want to face the realities of trading because these realities do not fit their hopes and dreams; “If I can just learn how to trade, I can ________________________________” (Fill in the Blank). The hope that this can happen, and happen in a short period of time, becomes a self-delusion so strong that all reason is thrown out the window. For example take a top level computer programmer, it takes years to hone their skills, and yet some believe that in a few months they can change all of the psychological defects that hold them back from being consistently profitable traders. It makes no sense at all, if it takes years to learn programming how long do you think it will take to learn how to trade, and fix your head???

Now think about this delusion. “I know I can trade because I have __________________________” (fill in the blank). Generally this blank is filled with an exaggerated view of ones “Steely Nerve, and Ice Cold Focus”. Oh really? How is it that you “feel” desperate and hopeless when your boss insults you, or when you are passed up for a promotion, etc. If you cannot properly deal with the things that virtually everyone goes through in a controlled and rational manner, while still having a source of income? How do you think you will you be able to function if you lose that source of income, and your new supposed source of income is causing you to lose what little bit of money you have due to a negative equity streak?? Self-Delusion, it sucks.

In this profession, self-control, mental balance and confidence mean everything; you cannot trade well if you have unresolved emotional issues. Yet people do not look at themselves when they blow up an account, they blame the “system” they are using, or the broker, or a Guru, or whatever is handy. The same behavior that caused them so much grief in their “day” job is now coming back to haunt them in trading. Time and time again it is seen that a trader is able to make some money trading and then they give it back, and then some. Then again some never make it out of the stall, thinking they can master the market, they try to control the reality, rather than accepting the reality. Article after article have been written about these problems, and yet the same old story remains, I hate my job so I must trade.

To correct this, one has to deal with their current circumstances. Is your boss a psychopath? How do you handle this on an emotional level?? In your opinion, is your job a dead end, then what is your plan to address this?? Most people who get into trading are not trust fund babies or have an inside connection like Paul Tudor Jones, most of us have to work full time to provide for family, food, and housing, so what plan do you have, what time frame will you use that will fit your life. It takes time, patience, self-control and focus, you just cannot hope that it will all work out; you have to have a solid yet flexible plan that will give the maximum possibility of success, this is known as the “Edge”. If you don’t have this, you will be wasting time, money and even your life chasing something that is beyond your ability to accomplish!

The Ever Flute Listening Edge Using VIPER

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Just wanna say this

                                 The Internet Of Things
                                            or

"A dog does not smile, no matter how many times your kind might think it does."
Observer

No really, dogs don’t smile. In talking to some friends over the past few weeks I found out that many of them ACTUALLY think the dogs do smile, and there is no way to reason with them that dogs do not smile. So what does this have to do with trading?? Well dear reader, in a psychological sense everything.

It has to do with what we are willing to convince ourselves of to make ourselves feel better about our circumstances and condition. No where does this play out in a more obvious fashion than on internet trading boards. Some are so dissatisfied with their lives that they invent online personalities, traders who have had massive amounts of success, who claim to know how Spot Currency Markets markets work from the inside out, they know what the market will do at any point in Price/Time.

A few moths ago an acquaintance told me of a trading Guru that was now claiming divine intervention in his life, that “God” answered his prayers to be successful so that he could help others be successful, yep you can’t make this stuff up. My first question would be which god, the god of the bible, the god of Islam, the god of the Buddhists, or perhaps it was Shree Ganesh, the Hindu god of good luck, or maybe it was the god of destroyed retail FOREX accounts. I don’t know which one, but in reality, once a person sees this type of behavior from someone claiming to be a cool-headed professional trader, they should run for the exits.

The same is true when you hear “Wyckoff used volume this way, but since Spot Currency does not have true volume numbers, I use it in a totally different way”. Stop and think, it was designed to be used with “real” volume numbers and it can not work without them, it is very simple. Or how about this, “enter here and take what the market gives you”, “set appropriate stops”. Ok, now what is this fool talking about, excuse me, Mcfly, anyone home, could you be more vague? The answer is usually Ad Hominem attacks are the last resort of etc etc etc etc.

Along with the invented personality, come sock puppets. I think out of all of the things I don’t like about Boards are Sock Puppets. For example, this experience. A guy said he was working on an oil rig site in Edmonton and the work was hard long hours, etc. and he wanted to get involved with Spot C trading to get out of such a demanding job. I can relate kinda sorta to this, so after seeing him “struggle” for a while, I sent him a PM to see if I could help, well his response was, shall we say, less that cordial, and in line with the Gurus “Iambic Pentameter”. So I said “Bonne Chance Mon Ami”. I realized he was a sock puppet. I believe that we still have one of this Gurus smelly socks around here still, and hopefully, one day, Site Overlords will take the laundry out, hehehehehehe. But anyway, it is very frustrating for someone serious to try to post through these “socks”, the voice of reason is always drown out by the “Guru” in different incarnations.

Finally we come down to the followers, or as some of the youts (sp NJ) say “Fanboys”. People today are so starved for leadership that they get attached to a personality that they think has their best interests in mind, and from that point on, there is no questioning of the Guru allowed. It does get worse, it gets to the point where legitimate questions are rejected off hand, not just by the Guru himself, or the obvious Socks, but also by the unwary followers. They begin to form a circle of protection around the Guru that Kim Jong Un would be jealous of, even after the Guru blows up, and is completely unmasked as a fraud, they continue to support him. Even when he performs the same act 5-6 times in a row, they never stop to ask, is that dog really smiling ? Why do they do this, my theory is because they have to believe that dogs smile, it is the basis for their future growth, as a person and financially, every bit of emotion they have is put into this Guru and his teachings, and no amount of reasoning will change that.

Understand also, that these followers are so caught up in being part of a “team”, “movement” or “tribe”, that they have to believe in the Guru, because if not, that means they are wrong, and this conclusion IS unacceptable. It would mean all the time and money they spent, was wasted, if the Guru failed, and his system failed then the follower failed. This emotional dependence on the Guru is so bad that even when the system and Guru fail, the follower blames themselves, they feel incapable of being able to trade the Guru’s lofty, holy, heavenly system, and they are too unclean to grasp the Gurus holy utterances. Accepting that they cannot trade the Gurus system is more acceptable to them than to just admit the Guru and his system is just wrong.

The reason for this is they need to believe that “Dogs Smile”. They need to think there is someone out there who has a secret knowledge of the markets, that will confirm their suspicions that the big boys are out to take their micro accounts from them and the Guru will ensure that this does not happen. The Guru becomes more than “sum dum gai” like me on the internet, he becomes a strong Father or Big Brother figure, who will chastise when needed, but will always be there to protect the little trading family.

Yes keep believing dogs smile dear reader, keep trying to convince yourself, keep trying to make yourself feel better about your life, that the Guru is right, and even if you can’t trade his system you know two things, he can and Dogs Smile. You are easily “READ”, whenever you respond to criticism or a thoughtful question of the Guru, you let everyone know how dependent you are. Yes keep thinking Dogs Smile, I would like to invite you to a specific hub of liquidity I know of, and seeing as I would like to purchase a personalized Porsche Panamera Turbo S Executive, Carmine Red, next year, a few extra bucks might just put me over the top.

The Ever TradeViper And Not TradePanamera VIPER

“You Don’t Even Know What You Don’t Know, So How Can You Know Anything”

Observer

6 Likes

Your last post just reminded me of a joke. No offence to anyone who is a devoted Christian.

Here i go ,

" What brand of Shampoo does Jesus use? "

I will post the answer next day.

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjLnuzI-ufVAhWQNoEKHfWeCoYYABAIGgJ5dw&ohost=www.google.co.uk&cid=CAESEeD2FLHVdT18UvuWineCGVo0&sig=AOD64_0jPYqMj_tacGmAlSLhqiIGo-mqqg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjPoePI-ufVAhUHeCYKHWySCcgQvhcINw&adurl=

Now that’s just plain cheating, Malaysia, Malaysia, what the Crotalus does a RedNeck like myself know about Malaysian shampoo hehehehehehehehehe :smile:

The Never Having Dandruff Because I Shed My Skin VIPER

Man , you are the sage of the baby pips.
The sagacious viper

1 Like

nice posts. nice and entertaining storries. nice to see someome is adressing the psychology behind trading on babypips.

it took some of us 10 to 20 or more years :expressionless:

I couldnt as I #1 preserve my capital (like Viper :P)
I dont overleverage
I dont put that much risk on
I have a large account
I open trades in the right LONG TERM direction
I am fearless and have nerves of steel.
you can only think one thought at a time make it the right one!

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And the earth does not spin, no matter who imagines that it does.

And we all know there is only one way to measure a Guru: by his live trading account :slight_smile:

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Hey R, if I take on a new client, the first thing they want to see is a prospectus, no one comes in and says “Hey VIPER here is 250k I trust you can trade, I don’t need no stinking prospectus”!

But in Guru world, no proof needed, only “Testimonials”, and IF someone asks for proof, they say, “Hey I don’t have to prove anything to you, or anyone else”. Which is ok if it is free, but once they start charging, people are so attached to the “Dream” and the Personality, they go along without questioning.

Also don’t get me started with the sock puppets, and the fake “Testimonials” etc. I don’t mind someone trying to make a buck, and doing it in a basically unregulated environment, but when they start with the “Smelly Socks”, and mysterious floating fibbo, well it gets to be too much.

We had a long term trader posting here for a while, and as it does, the market shifted leaving this person not looking so good. His “system” worked in a heavy trend, but with out that he was chopped to pieces. The inability to adjust and adapt is one of the greatest shortcomings of all traders, what worked last month, may not work next month. Also this person was kind of guru esque, so he dragged some with him, it’s too bad to, if he would have just either stayed out or adjusted, he would have been a real Wiener.

The Ever Observing VIPER

3 Likes

all very wise words indeed! AND know that when a dog gets some smelly socks he smiles! just not so you can see!

I had to share all data from several trading accounts before I got my first 250K live funded account :wink:
and here is something else, when you trade someone elses $, read the contract very carefully! as mine says that if I violate the risk rules set by the fund owner, intentionally or deliberately then they expect me to pay them back for all losses of their monies! no troubles I always remain 100% responsible and accountable for my trades.

There is no system! you need a large collection of trading tools and skills and be able to adapt on the flying to rapidly changing HIGHLY violent markets. Trading is 89% psychology is the sad fact and as you say, if you brain aint right dont trade! because we all know that traing in a messy mental state results in much higher risk!

I guess a guru really has to be both! a great trader and a great teacher. We still tease Mikey on twitter, I dunno why, I guess its fun! because he is so holy! Mikey would have you to believe he can trade live in his demo account, and teach you to trade in your live account, while he trades demo! the jury is still out on this!

Demo trading and live trading while mechanically the same, are two totally different animals! one is a cat and the other is a dog!

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Bro, hope I’m not being rude, but if I had access to this sort of funds I don’t think I would be using mt4/5. Why, do you feel, does this platform perform?

Hey _bob, good question, I never understood the mt whatever allure, I know you can do some Quant and Robo trading, but OANDA has an agreement with Quant Connect that is Python based, and most of the better brokers in the US have APIs that are Python compatible, and for volume you get good discounts, I don’t know how many brokers have volume rebates for MT accounts, Hey RR any specific reason for sticking with MT?

Also I have embarked on the adventure of learning Python, and at 60, it is a challenge, but since my Chinese IT guy decided to embark on a new life venture a few years ago, it left me bereft of an auto dealio that would work with current conditions. It takes me quite some time to trust somebody so replacing him, well, may never be feasible.

The Ever A Little Snake In A Yuuuuuuuuuge Forest VIPER

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Well none of the live accounts I traded for someone else were ever us based.
Oanda would be the last place I would ever trade live, I still have a demo account there to remind me of their inherent sillyness. I guess I have been trading a long time and learned mt4 ages ago, yeah it has its issues, but almost never crashes. mt5 is way better, as its multithreaded, but even thats still awkward for me. Things about mt5 though, the DOM is way better, you can see the spread and place trades inside it! and nothing excites me more than placing inside bid quotes & inside ask quotes as if I was the LP. It’s also quite nice to see the vol of orders pending in the DOM, so that allows you to see some walls (but I already know where they all are :P). As to the rebates, they would be great, the account holder is probably getting them.

As to why I dont take my 30% commissions and trade my own accounts thats another matter, altogether.

What do you need in the line of Chinese coder? I may be able to hook you up.