Patience + persistence
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Like it! 
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You know what? I’ve been thinking again about what makes trading hard - especially for people with minds and logic…
Well, there is a well-known expression that goes:
" if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"
I think, maybe, the same expression applied to trading might be:
"if it looks like a sell, dives like a sell, and screams like a sell, then it probably is a buy" 
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I agree! It’s 100% true half the time, but only sometimes. Other times, it’s 75% guaranteed.
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Eric Thomas had said,
People ask me ¨what should I do? Should I do this, should I do that?¨ And I can’t tell you, but your goals will tell you. Your goals will tell you how much sleep you need. Your goals will tell you who you should be hanging out with. When you look at your goals, your goals will tell you which opportunity is for you. Your goals will tell you ´nope, can’t do it´or ´yup, that’s for me´.
I think it’s true. We often ask others what we should do. I think that there a lot of times that the answer resides within our goals.
¨Should I pay for a course?¨ Well, look at your goals. Is your goal about money only? Or is your goal about pride, first, and then money?
If the pride of doing it without a mentor is more important, then you got your answer. If getting money fast is the top priority, then you need a mentor to put you on the fast track.
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Yes, I do agree with this, but I also think we can add something more tangible to it.
It is all very well setting goals and then deducing from them what one should do. But that remains a bit vague.
I would add that every goal should be defined in explicit, concrete terms and then we need to draw up a road map for each goal, defining in clear, concrete, chronological steps, how we are going to achieve them.
An often quoted goal on this site is "I want to be a professional trader". But that alone tells us nothing. Sure, we can then add some “things to do” to this such as what style of trading, what instruments, what timeframes etc. But this still left very vague and open-ended.
But a road map will first define what we mean by “a professional trader” - how much do I want/need to earn in what time framework? How much capital will I need? What equipment will I need? How many hours per day? etc, etc.
Then it will define how we will get to that level. What instruments and what strategy, what parameters like max drawdown, monthly target, what training needs, what experience to be gained, what capital growth target and in what time dimension (per month, end of year, etc).
Then the road map will define other, non-trading issues like max level of personal loans that are comfortable/manageable, holiday allowances (time/money), pension savings, etc.
This kind of roadmap serves at least two purposes:
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How to get to the desired goal and what kind of adjustments need to be made along the way.
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Whether the goal is actually achievable or too ambitious in the first place. Afterall, if the road map is doable then the goal is achievable. But if any of the steps defined in the road map are clearly pie-in-the-sky then the goal is in the same place.
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Right, right. A map. And sometimes, you don’t know what you don’t know. If there’s no real guidance for you, well, you’d better figure it out, somehow. Get books from the library, look online, reach out, think critically and reflect.
If you have a goal, and no map, you could just end up going in circles wasting time.
Here’s one thing that most self-help books and financial independence books don’t talk about: failure.
There comes a time when your plan falls apart. If you have enough resources, a small problem can stay a small problem. But if you have too little resources, a small problem can become a mountain. It’s overwhelming and you’ll want to give up. You might get depressed.
And this is where grit comes in. You wanna give up, but your goals will tell you if you can afford to give up or not. If you’re just trying to get money for a car, then you can tell yourself you don’t really need that car anyway.
But if you’re trying to change your life, and the lives of loved ones around you, well, then your goals are telling you that quitting is not an option. If what you were doing didn’t work, well, find a different way; learn from your mistakes.
Your roadmap can change, while your goal can stay the same.
Right, let’s be somewhat reasonable. ¨I wanna make $300k my first year of trading¨. Maybe not. But you don’t have to give up. Your goal may take longer than expected, but you can keep going. No goal is too high, but each step has to be manageable for your current capacity. Perhaps the first goal could be $3k, then $30k.
Small steps, great distances.
What do you think?
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You are right on the nail when you say, “each step has to be manageable for your current capacity”!!!
Brilliant! That phrase describes the challenge of trading totally! No matter what your dreams are for the future, you must work within your limitations as they are today…and then develop them towards tomorrow!
This is one reason why I believe prop firms are a great method for aspiring traders. Firms like FTMO, MFF, The5ers, etc offer traders the opportunity to prove their skills and then provide the capital to make the profits. If one wants to earn a full-time income from trading then one has to be capable of passing the evaluation periods of these firms. They force you into a rigid set of trading parameters, which is a good discipline. If you can’t make it within their parameters then forget about being a full-time trader. They set a good road map with a sensible timeline. One way to find out if you have the skills or not - and what you still need to understand and develop…
On the other hand, if you can work within their reasonable constraints then capital is no longer an issue. As they say, you bring the skills, we bring the capital, we both share the profits. And this is not just a benefit for low-capitalised traders or beginners. Even a long-term trader can benefit from using their capital and releasing their own funds for other purposes.
But I digress. These prop firm parameters can provide a good road map framework for any trader to emulate within their own trading strategy including the all-important timeline for achievement. However, others will disagree with this and even claim these firms are a scam. Maybe some are, I don’t know. But some are diefinitely not. Sure, they set their criteria to minimise their own potential losses, but ultimately if you don’t win then they don’t win either…
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This word “failure” is an excruciatingly bitter word for humans in whatever topic we may be talking about. It is not just a step backwards or in the wrong direction, it is a finality, the end, irreversible, entirely negative and the opposite of what we were actually striving for.
That is why risk/money management is so very important in trading - and is a lot more than just the R:R on the next trade.
If we had to define what is the one most important aspect in trading, what would we say? A Trading plan? Journalling? Patience? Discipline? …
Whilst these are all important features, in my opinion the most critical aspect in trading is to ensure you are still here tomorrow. And that means defining your absolute loss levels and diligently keeping your risk well within that range.
Mistakes happen even to the best of traders - and the bigger the trader, the bigger the damage from mistakes. The unexpected also happens. Maybe not often, but we also need to ensure that the occasional tsunami is not going to wash us away completely.
But failure is not only about actually blowing one’s account. Many traders do not appreciate, until they have been there, that a serious level of drawdown also seriously impacts on their recovery duration even though their account has survived.
We talked about roadmaps and timelines. Well, if you know that your account equity can only take, say, a maximum drawdown of $500 and an overly ambitious trade ends up with a DD of $450, then you are in serious trouble even though your account is still alive. Having a remaining maximum loss potential reduced to $50 so dramatically affects one’s trading opportunities and position sizes that it becomes blatantly clear that the recovery process back to where you were is going to be long and painfully emotional. So much so, that one’s enthusiasm can wither and the result is voluntary surrender to failure.
Managing your road map and timeline is like being a project manager. You know the end goal, you know the requirements along the way, you design the interim checkpoints, you identify possible known risk factors and their solutions, you know the resources required, you know the capability of the work force (yourself). You also know that projects rarely run entirely smoothly and there is always the risk of the unexpected.
So the project manager skills lies in the “what if” analysis. Defining the criticality of possible events along the way and their impact on achieving the end result. In trading, risk/money management is key to this critical analysis.
A big position might give us a big leap foward towards our goal - but “what if” it doesn’t work out? What am I left with if it fails? How will I recover from such a loss situation?
In my opinion, considering that most new traders fail, the one and only initial project to be managed is to keep your account balance above your initial equity and in your broker’s “winning traders” statistics - and aim for a 10% gain over 6 months. After that, one can start being creative with one’s objectives 
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That sounds like a good plan, but it also sounds easier said than done. Because of life constraints, family commitments and cash flow may not always be stable or sufficient to pursue my goals. There is too much at stake; I can’t sacrifice any of them.
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HI @alphahavoc!!! Great to hear from you again here! 
(I hope you are still enjoying those biscuits! 
)
How are you and your family? And your trading?
But isn’t that the very core of project management - to anticipate the risks and potential problems and pre-plan the solutions and adjustments that will be necessary if and when these occur?
You are absolutely right that things rarely go exactly according to plan but surely it is better to start from “somewhere”, and adjust as we go, rather than from “nowhere” and tumble into one of the many pitfalls along the way?
The issues you mention are real and very important. But I am pretty sure most of these can be accommodated within the roadmap structure especially concerning risk exposure, time resources, and capital adequacy?
What do you think?
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Recently, I embarked on demo trading, starting on Monday of this week. One day prior, I was very enthusiastic and planning to exercise every day, do intermittent fasting, and follow my trading plan. However, my plans got adjusted multiple times, and I failed to exercise every day and do intermittent fasting.
On the first day of trading, I was very focused and careful, but on the second day, with some profit on hand, I noticed that my trading style became less focused. By the third day, I started averaging and took on even larger risks, getting loose with my trading style.
Additionally, I was quite stressed with work, trading, and everything else. I started eating instant noodles along the way. Despite being aware of what I should and shouldn’t do, I failed to comply with my initial plans.
As consolation, my demo trading is still doing well, which provides some solace.
After reflecting on my situation, I’ve decided to reset my mindset and improve my discipline. I’ve realized that trading requires a lot of peer support to keep me motivated and moving forward.
Congratulations, @alphahavoc, on a very positive post!! One of the key initial stages in project managing your trading is to recognise the risks and potential problems. You are doing exactly that.
Retail traders are almost always self-employed, one-person, businesses. And as such it is too easy to self-deceive, hide one’s head in the sand, and blame others when things go wrong. You clearly have the ability to look at your trading objectively, realistically and with an urge to improve and succeed. This is a very good core platform to be working from.
Two things stand out here (and these are only my personal obversations):
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There is an old adage that one should “plan the trade - and trade the plan”. You appear to be doing the first part but failing at the second. It is no good working at developing a plan/strategy to base your trades on - and then putting it on the shelf and trading intuitively, spontanously and emotionally. Your strategy should not be just a theoretical outline.
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Following from the above, you describe yourself as a “discretionary trader”. How do you define this? In my opinion discretionary trading is not just a loose term permitting us to ignore our plans whenever it suits and trade whatever we like, when we like and based on little more than a whim and a prayer and chasing the price.
My definition of discretionary trading is that it is based on two levels:
- a fixed, rigid sub-layer defining the core strategy, entry criteria, stops/targets setting, exposure levels, etc.
- an overlay to the above which looks at other current factors, which impact on the core strategy. E.g. important data releases, key meetings, public holidays, weekends, current market structure, etc. This is the discretionary element that determines whether to act on a signal at all, how large a position, where to fine-tune stop/target levels, how long to keep the trade open, etc.
The second layer does NOT replace the 1st layer, it manages it! The second layer is NOT a licence to drop the strategy and go spontanously gut-trading, and it does NOT licence one to up the risk to recover previous losses.
A good goal to set is to decide how long one wants to be a trader. Seriously! If the answer is long term and with good returns, then the only likely way to achieve that is via a clear, practical strategy that is diligently followed day after day together with the discretionary options applying to the decisions. It is boringly routine sometimes, but that is usually a sign that one is succeeding in managing a strategy. Afterall, there are not trading opportunities every minute of every day…
I would also add that it is worth devoting a lot of time and study to preparation work and market evaluation before the trading day starts. This way you can gain a clear view of expectations beforehand and avoid jumping in and out in opposite directions.
One can develop a great pride and personal satisfaction in “trading the plan” when things start to go consistently right. You created the plan, you managed the plan, you traded the plan, you are rewarded by the plan.
Whilst this is a positive factor, it is not such an important issue, I think. In fact, it can lead to negative results! We all know that trading demo is not the same as trading with live funds on the line. A near-term profit is not really very helpful long term if it takes a lot of stress and disruption in one’s life to achieve it! That is not a sustainable condition at all…
We have talked in an earlier post about needing not only to learn how to trade, but also how to be a trader. I think one of the biggest benefits of a demo is in developing oneself as a trader and not just to make a profit. If this is combined with developing and trading one’s strategy, then the results start to make sense. But if the trading is random and only partially based on a vague plan, which is often ignored, then the results are somewhat meaningless whether it is a gain or a loss?
You are clearly on the right track and have a lot of experience of markets. Personally, I think you only need to strive for more consistency in following your plan via discipline. If you don’t journal all your trades at least journal a summary of the day and highlight what went right and what went wrong…
Just some personal thoughts
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Hi @alphahavoc,
I don’t actually read anything else on this site except for answering on this thread but, after seeing your return here on this thread, I noticed that you have actually started other threads and are now trading with FTMO prop firm.
Funny, because I was going to suggest that you do that because it helps a lot with discipline and working within set criteria. Also, it is a great solution for talented traders with insufficient capital. It is actually also a good solution in some circumstances for traders who do have capital because it frees it up for use in other fields!
But now that I see you are well into your prop firm demo, I realise that what I have been writing here is of little use in your circumstances. I am simply a relic from the past that still trades from my own analyses and who would probably guess that ChatGPT must be some kind of commentary on F1 racing! 
So I apologise if my comments appeared to be condescending or patronising. I see now that you are rocketing in an entirely new direction and I wish you all the best with it. You deserve every success after all your efforts and perseverance over the years.
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Hi @alphahavoc, I hope you are now recovering ok.
I took a peep at your FTMO thread and I am so glad to see you doing so well. There is a lot that could (and should) be talked about concerning prop firms since they are becoming a major influence amongst retail traders.
Personally, I think the challenge you have chosen is too difficult and is built on a time duration that is far too short to genuinely determine whether someone is a profitable trader consistently and for a long term. But if one treats it for what it is, i.e. a speculative opportunity with a very limited chance of success, somewhat similar to a lottery ticket, I would say then that is fine! 
Personally, I think the key to success with such a scheme with only 10 actual trading days, is to carefully build an initial buffer during the first few days in order to be able to up the position size as necessary during the last few days. If, for example, one suffered a drawdown of a few thousands in the first week (which is entirely credible) then there is no way one can reach the target in a few remaining days without taking big “make or break” positions - and we know how they usually end up"
But either way, if one succeeds with this kind of challenge then it is not an automatic conclusion that one can always repeat the same. As I think someone on your thread said, if you pass one stage you will most likely fail on another! But this does not mean that the prop firm is a scam! There is nothing hidden here and the trader is fully aware of the terms and conditions. And there is nothing wrong with giving it a try as long as one understands and accepts that failure here does not mean a failure as a trader per se.
One other, rather strange, comment on your thread claims that there are no successful traders in these prop firms. This conclusion is apparently based on the observation that there are no big prop firm players here on BP!
Well, I think that is true, there are no big players here - and the question to ask is why that might be. There is actually one very successful The5%ers trader who used to post here but left this and other forums for precisely the negativity that you have seen on your thread. I can give you his details if you wish.
There are basically three types of members here on BP. There are a few successful traders who wouldn’t necessarily be interested in prop firms anyway, then there are a number of pessimists and negatives who run down anything and everything that sounds successful, and then there are the hordes of Newbies at various stages of learning the trade - and prop firms are not intended for such beginners anyway.
So why would any successful prop firm trader think of coming here? If one wants to find and meet these guys then go to their home ground - don’t expect them to come here. Go to their prop firm websites, discord groups, trader websites, etc. There you will read and hear about and follow their progress.
It is certainly not necessary to endure such pressurised time deadlines when it comes to trying prop firm trading, For example, one well-known firm offers you 12 months to make 10% on your account - and you earn your money back if you are successful on this first stage!
Another argument against prop firms is the profit split. Well I look at that a different way. It takes a significant amount of own capital in your account to earn a decent monthly wage. This capital is at risk and tied up with your broker. The bulk of your capital is also mainly lying dormant in you account as its sole purpose to to cover the margin requirements. Naturally, one never uses the entire capital as margin. But you can trade the same amount of capital with a prop firm and release your own funds for use in other profit-earning ventures. And the cost of this is a small share of the profits. But you can scale the size of the account and positions to match what you would have been doing and expecting to earn with your own capital anyway.
Well, that is just a few thoughts, personal, as always!
You have got off to a good start - but a hard week ahead to make it! Just don’t let a rogue/revenge trade deplete your earnings so far, it will become impossible to make it back without gambling in the time remaining…!
And if you do make it, then think hard and study the terms of various prop firms before committing to the real thing. It is a great way to trade but it is no easier than trading on your own - and you will meet some fine and genuine friends along the way - good luck to you, you have earned it…
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Hello @alphahavoc,
If I am looking at the right thing you are still doing great on your challenge!
Only some $2300 to go and 4 trading days left?
It does look like yesterday was bit of a roller-coaster? But a nice recovery and improvement!
Don’t do anything rash now in these last few days! Stick to your rules and your professionalism 
Wishing you every success with this challenge
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Recently recovered from a severe flu. My self-discipline appears to be somewhat lacking. My performance yesterday was not as focused as it could have been, but fortunately, it worked out well. My energy levels are still low.
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@alphahavoc, you’re still in there, mate!
Your main “enemy” now is the clock with 3 trading days left. Take it carefully now, no oversize risks, protect your equity, and slowly does it
Don’t rush at the finishing line and collapse one metre from the line - but don’t leave it all to the last day either, when the “do or die” becomes a reality.
Close the gap a little more today and finish it tomorrow, with Friday as a reserve just in case.
Fun game, but not real trading with these time constraints. The motivation to trade is not because there is something that looks promising and meets the edge criteria, it is simply because there is a deadline challenge to beat.
But it still takes a lot of skill to manage a forex challenge and you have shown that skill very well already regardless of the final outcome! Well done!!!
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Sure, peer support helps, but the biggest support should come from within. Don’t look to others for help.
Save yourself! Getting help from others is nice, but none of us are living your life. It’s your life. Take hold of it!!!
I just realised how late I am to the conversation! haha
I’m glad you’re feeling better. It sounds like you know where you need improvement. One step at a time. Choose a weak spot, and work on it. Once you’re comfortable in that area, on to the next weak spot. Small steps, great distances!
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You are telling me on my own thread not to try and help other people?
OK, so when you want to learn to drive, don’t go to a driving school. Just buy a car and work it out for yourself and start off down the motorway…
And don’t go to school and learn anything. Just rely on your own experiences as life evolves around you…
And if you are ill. Don’t go to the doctor’s. Just figure out yourself what to do by trial and error…
And if you have a problem with the plumbing or electricity, don’t call in the expert. Just fix it yourself…
And if you like your neighbour’s house, don’t bother with the law. Just move in there…
This is one reason why there are so few seasoned and experienced traders on BP. The Newbies always know best.
@dushimes, I recall you saying that your own thread is now 2 years old. I also recall you saying on that thread that you do not want external help. I also recall you saying there that you are still trading demo and still losing money. I also recall you saying that you are still trying to decide on the right strategy…
I no longer post here on BP anyway, I only came here to encourage and give moral support to an old colleague in his new endeavour - in spite of the negativity he was receiving from the uninformed (typical BP style). And I am really happy and pleased that @alphahavoc succeeded in his challenge - and he DID do it entirely on his own.
Sorry if I offended your principles of “do it alone”, but don’t worry I am finished here now that the challenge has been successfully completed - and 2 days before the deadline… I hope you will one day be able to do the same.
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