Wannabe mentors, supposed gurus, charletans, cheats, scammers, stay out!

Beginner Questions
21

Here it is:

I have a few thoughts about how to save yourself a bundle of headaches and heartaches, and maybe a few buck as you search for a trade room. First question is why do you need a trade room? Simple answer is that in the beginning it can help you get through some of the learning curve, and you have a place for some some sympathetic response and support for your trading woes. Also, a good trade room should help you make money while you learn. Unfortunetly, with 100’s of methods and as many trade rooms out there, how can you wade through the junk and concentrate on the better one’s? I have a few criteria that I think are an absolute must for a real trade room where your chances of succeeding and MAKING MONEY WHILE LEARNING are high. Number one - You must be able to see the moderating traders charts in real time. Number two - You must be able to see the trades entered in real time either through the moderators order dom, or chart trader or some method where it is apparent that the trade was entered, filled, and managed. Number three - You must be able to follow the trades, or at least most of them. This issues gets abit difficult in a fast market and may need some adjusting. To my mind there are three basic types of trading rooms. One is where it’s just pure trading, minimal instruction. The other is where the education has more emphasis, and trading takes a back seat…hence few trades. The third is a hybrid; a steady stream of trading towards a set room goal and a scheduled series of ongoing educational sessions in addition to the room’s daily trading. So, first you need to decide which is right for you. Here’s a tip. If you are considering a trading education in a particular trading method because you have none of your own, then look for the education emphasis. Otherwise, if you have a few good setups you know, and have some of your trading education already underway, then look for a trading room that will add to your knowledge, and help you make money as you learn their methods and tools. If, however, you have traded a bit and have some tools and know some setups and yet nothing is working or going well for you, then look to the hybrid. Regardless, remember the #1, #2 and #3 rule. DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS. If you are unable to see the trade moderators charts and his trade entries then pass that place up. It may be a good place, it may not. But without the visual verifiable evidence you will find yourself not only having to watch your own chart, but also having to compile in your head what is happening, and keep that picture going along with all the other pressures of trading. I do not care what excuse is given…there is no excuse for not showing real time moderating trades taken in real time. Technology is not an issue, money cannot possibly be the issue, so it must be something else? Let’s see…fear, exposure, stop fluffing, doubling up or bad trading habits or what? You tell me. So, there is the absolute newbie (and it’s going to be painful) who really needs a lot of luck to avoid the garbage rooms and there is the trader who is just looking to improve and there is the trader who really needs a better set of tools and methods to get him out of his funk. So if you have found a room then the best way to take advantage of the room is to spend a few weeks just listening and watching. We are conditioned for immediate response syndrome, instant gratification syndrome and these are detremental to your trading health. We can probably all agree on that. If you do take the time to watch and listen, then keep a notebook and write down every trade call, the time and the particulars…targets hit, stops etc. and review it after market while looking at your own chart. Don’t even look at your own chart while doing the assesment. Concentrate on what’s going on in the room because if you decide on that room you are going to have to do the next thing to get the most out of the room. That is to trust the trading moderator and his trade calls. Why? Because you want to be able to make money while you learn. So your first task is to see if the room makes sense to you. Can you follow the logic of the trade moderator. If he is a really good trader, he may be a lousey moderator and vis versa. So you need to know that before you join. Look for verifiable results. Verifyable results are the trade records 1st hand…not some spreadsheet made up afterwards, or some list of trades posted in a chat window (even if in real time). In Ninja it’s pretty easy. Look for the trade list records unadulterated right out of Ninja. Look for the summery records. I have heard a lot of traders complain that sim doesn’t count. Well, I think that is wrong thinking. What you need to see is the trade time of entry, the target completion and the stop. Add a tick of slippage in one direction, if you like, to the trade and see what it looks like. Often, a moderator will move to sim if he has hit his daily goal. The better moderators are not at all shy about letting you know they have moved to sim. I think it very unreasonable of traders who insist that a moderator continue to endlessly trade throughout the day without some kind of stopping criteria. The concepts of over trading, pointless trading, mental fatigue, and plain stupidity come to mind if anyone thinks that trading without some kind of daily goal or quota is going to make you a better trader. On the contrary. So why should a moderator be forced to practice bad trading habits just because you as a member may have strolled into the trade room at 10:56 and want a winning trade. Well, guess what. By 10:56 most good traders are done for the day! So, once the daily goal is hit and if the moderator is any good, then you should not have any problems with his moving to sim. What’s important is does he continue to call winning trades? Do the tools continue to give high probability setups? Can you see his trades?So, now you have a room you think is going to work for you. You took the trial, you signed up for 1 month. BTW, Do not accept a room where you are required to sign up for a longer specified term…this is bs. If the room is a good room then there should exist the confidence that you will be so pleased and satisfied that you will return of your own desire. Now, remember the part about trusting the moderators trading? This is where it is important that you accept that fact and live with it. You are not going to catch every trade call…no matter what room you are in. Its just the way it is. Hesitation, you coughed just as the trade was called, a bug distracted you…whatever…its going to happen that you will miss a couple. So, the bottom line is that to get the most out of any trade room AFTER you have done your homework and decided, is to take every room trade period. You homework should already have told you the performance expectation, the style of the rooms moderating trader, the basic methodology and trade setup rules, etc. Your job now is to learn the method and the setups in great detail, practice them under guidence, and make money while you learn. I have been in some pretty crappy rooms (now I know they were crappy) and some pretty decent rooms (of course these are the one’s I abandoned because i did not have my own act together). Currently I do not need a trade room. If you are at that point then congratualtions! If not, then even if you join any trade room remember to look forward to the day when you can graduate and trade independently, consistently successfully.

Testimonials

22

wow, i stopped reading that after two lines… spaces work wonders… no offense intended

23

That about sums up my FX experience as well (although i skipped the EA and signal phase).

I have learned alot from honest genuine traders who want to share thier experience for FREE if you know where to look for it, its thier way of giving something back and occupy some time while waiting on the next trade set-up - after all trading is alot of boring screen time… It doesn’t take to long to see who is full of BS or not.

I had to lose alot of money before I realised what i really needed to do to be successful - no better school than hard knocks.

24

I am in the middle. I have people offering to trade my money for 3-4 hundred a month, I have actually got scammed in this market as well. So I have been to both sides of the fence. I chose to get trained by a mentor that cared about my success instead and as a result I have found success and increased my investment, there are so many things out there and sharks in the water you need to find someone you can trust. Just getting trade signals is not enough because it does not teach you how to watch and learn trade setups, entry
exit points. For people buying software you also do the same thing nobody is
going to get rich off of 1-3 hundred dollar software program as long as the brokers have a say in it. The best education and investment is in yourself,
so you learn. That is why you go to school so you can learn the tools it
takes to be successful in life. So get trained and then when you have
learned what it takes to be successful then you will can last in this
market, if it was so easy 97 percent of the people who enter would not
as promptly be exiting it. Just my thoughts.

25

I apologize for the length of that last board, i just cut and pasted it.I beleive you can see sometimes when people genuinely are trying to help has that blogger is.There is a lot of deception out there it is surprising at what lenghts they will go to.I know of one that had is audio altered so his voice could not be recognized.

26

Believe me I do agree with you. I now work with a professional trader. I pursued him though after he trained me. For the same reasons I found
success with him and I wanted to protect other people from getting scammed
the way I did and for as much as I did. That is why I maintain the best way
to protect yourself is to learn and be taught. Then there will no longer be
relying on someone else for your success. That is the key for me. Before
I would represent my partner, I made sure that he was legit and made him
trade my account, to show me verified results and I have achieved that as
well. I will show people my account. I think anything that is promised should
be backed up with results. After all that is what we are all after. As for people
who are frauds. That is tough we deal in a market that is 3 trillion dollars a
day. Educate yourself and the rest of these sharks will have to go away.
As long as people continue to rely on others with out education then this
problem will continue to exist. It is my hope that people will protect themselves with education. I wish all the best in your trading success.

27

Having some one trade your account is fine provided you protect yourself. As long as you have complete control of your money and [B]you[/B] and only [B]you[/B] can withdraw it and the “trader” of your choice trades your account with a limited power of attorney, you have protected your self as bset you can and hopefully your “trader” knows what they are doing. Just about everybroker will allow this and if the “trader” doesn’t want to do it this way, then for sure they are not legit.

ANYONE who wants you to hand over your money and you have no control of where it goes, well chances are you will never see it again.

Cheers

28

ONE CENT, wow reading this thread, you must have had powerful exposure to the… ‘how to be a millionair in no time brigade’.

I totally agree… ‘no better place to get the real deal’ than from people who actually make a living at FX. Personally, I put no value in robots, a few are reasonable, most are awful! No stops, huge draw downs, to name but a few! Don’t try and re-invent the wheel go to the source right?

29

Oh yea I have seen it all probably twice as much BS as people twice my age :slight_smile: I have been heavily involved in real estate investment for the past five years or so and that brings in as much if not more “get rich quick” junk as in Forex. You know, the Allen, Whitney, Kiyosaki’s of the world, buy everything with no money down, go to the closing table and collect your check for $50,000. At the end of the day, again it is all just preying on the desperate, the hopes and dreams of people looking for a better way out of the grind. Taking money from people who really can’t afford to lose it. I will send you an email. I would love to take a look at what you got going. Also send me a msg if you are interested and let me know if you may want to participate in our room starting next week just to chat and share some of your ideas.

Regards,
Sean Mathes :smiley:

30

I just wanted to take a second and thank everyone who has put in their input. I think this is a great thread for noobs and all for that matter to really see the reality of trading. More important than anything is to set expectations appropriately and I think we are doing a great job here.

Also, I think I may copyright the new term I came up with. Instead of Gurus, the shady ones (which is the majority IMO) will now be referred to as Screw-rus. :slight_smile:

My document is also almost complete will post shortly. Keep the info coming.

31

LETSEETHEPIPS- If you have a few minutes you might want to break up your post. You have a lot of good information there but a lot of people may skip over it as it is very overwhelming. :slight_smile:

32

Here it is again: No more word matrix:D

I have a few thoughts about how to save yourself a bundle of headaches

and heartaches, and maybe a few buck as you search for a trade room. First

question is why do you need a trade room? Simple answer is that in the

beginning it can help you get through some of the learning curve, and you

have a place for some some sympathetic response and support for your

trading woes. Also, a good trade room should help you make money while you

learn. Unfortunetly, with 100’s of methods and as many trade rooms out

there, how can you wade through the junk and concentrate on the better

one’s? I have a few criteria that I think are an absolute must for a real trade

room where your chances of succeeding and MAKING MONEY WHILE

LEARNING are high. Number one - You must be able to see the moderating

traders charts in real time. Number two - You must be able to see the trades

entered in real time either through the moderators order dom, or chart trader

or some method where it is apparent that the trade was entered, filled, and

managed. Number three - You must be able to follow the trades, or at least

most of them. This issues gets abit difficult in a fast market and may need

some adjusting. To my mind there are three basic types of trading rooms.

One is where it’s just pure trading, minimal instruction. The other is where

the education has more emphasis, and trading takes a back seat…hence few

trades. The third is a hybrid; a steady stream of trading towards a set room

goal and a scheduled series of ongoing educational sessions in addition to the

room’s daily trading. So, first you need to decide which is right for you.

Here’s a tip. If you are considering a trading education in a particular trading

method because you have none of your own, then look for the education

emphasis. Otherwise, if you have a few good setups you know, and have

some of your trading education already underway, then look for a trading

room that will add to your knowledge, and help you make money as you learn

their methods and tools. If, however, you have traded a bit and have some

tools and know some setups and yet nothing is working or going well for you,

then look to the hybrid. Regardless, remember the #1, #2 and #3 rule. DO

NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS. If you are unable to see the trade

moderators charts and his trade entries then pass that place up. It may be a

good place, it may not. But without the visual verifiable evidence you will find

yourself not only having to watch your own chart, but also having to compile

in your head what is happening, and keep that picture going along with all

the other pressures of trading. I do not care what excuse is given…there is

no excuse for not showing real time moderating trades taken in real time.

Technology is not an issue, money cannot possibly be the issue, so it must

be something else? Let’s see…fear, exposure, stop fluffing, doubling up or

bad trading habits or what? You tell me. So, there is the absolute newbie

(and it’s going to be painful) who really needs a lot of luck to avoid the

garbage rooms and there is the trader who is just looking to improve and

there is the trader who really needs a better set of tools and methods to get

him out of his funk. So if you have found a room then the best way to take

advantage of the room is to spend a few weeks just listening and watching
To be continued…

33

We are conditioned for immediate response syndrome, instant gratification

syndrome and these are detremental to your trading health. We can probably

all agree on that. If you do take the time to watch and listen, then keep a

notebook and write down every trade call, the time and the

particulars…targets hit, stops etc. and review it after market while looking at

your own chart. Don’t even look at your own chart while doing the

assesment. Concentrate on what’s going on in the room because if you

decide on that room you are going to have to do the next thing to get the

most out of the room. That is to trust the trading moderator and his trade

calls. Why? Because you want to be able to make money while you learn. So

your first task is to see if the room makes sense to you. Can you follow the

logic of the trade moderator. If he is a really good trader, he may be a lousey

moderator and vis versa. So you need to know that before you join. Look for

verifiable results. Verifyable results are the trade records 1st hand…not some

spreadsheet made up afterwards, or some list of trades posted in a chat

window (even if in real time). In Ninja it’s pretty easy. Look for the trade list

records unadulterated right out of Ninja. Look for the summery records. I

have heard a lot of traders complain that sim doesn’t count. Well, I think that

is wrong thinking. What you need to see is the trade time of entry, the

target completion and the stop. Add a tick of slippage in one direction, if you

like, to the trade and see what it looks like. Often, a moderator will move to

sim if he has hit his daily goal. The better moderators are not at all shy about

letting you know they have moved to sim. I think it very unreasonable of

traders who insist that a moderator continue to endlessly trade throughout

the day without some kind of stopping criteria. The concepts of over trading,

pointless trading, mental fatigue, and plain stupidity come to mind if anyone

thinks that trading without some kind of daily goal or quota is going to make

you a better trader. On the contrary. So why should a moderator be forced

to practice bad trading habits just because you as a member may have

strolled into the trade room at 10:56 and want a winning trade. Well, guess

what. By 10:56 most good traders are done for the day! So, once the daily

goal is hit and if the moderator is any good, then you should not have any

problems with his moving to sim. What’s important is does he continue to call

winning trades? Do the tools continue to give high probability setups? Can

you see his trades?So, now you have a room you think is going to work for

you. You took the trial, you signed up for 1 month. Do not accept a room

where you are required to sign up for a longer specified term…this is bs. If

the room is a good room then there should exist the confidence that you will

be so pleased and satisfied that you will return of your own desire. Now,

remember the part about trusting the moderators trading? This is where it is

important that you accept that fact and live with it. You are not going to

catch every trade call…no matter what room you are in. Its just the way it

is. Hesitation, you coughed just as the trade was called, a bug distracted

you…whatever…its going to happen that you will miss a couple. So, the

bottom line is that to get the most out of any trade room AFTER you have

done your homework and decided, is to take every room trade period. You

homework should already have told you the performance expectation, the

style of the rooms moderating trader, the basic methodology and trade setup

rules, etc. Your job now is to learn the method and the setups in great

detail, practice them under guidence, and make money while you learn. I

have been in some pretty crappy rooms (now I know they were crappy) and

some pretty decent rooms (of course these are the one’s I abandoned

because i did not have my own act together). Currently I do not need a

trade room. If you are at that point then congratualtions! If not, then even if

you join any trade room remember to look forward to the day when you can

graduate and trade independently, consistently successfully.

34

[I]No. You still don’t got it.
I think he meant something like this:[/I]

I have a few thoughts about how to save yourself a bundle of headaches and heartaches, and maybe a few bucks as you search for a trade room.

First question is: “why do you need a trade room”?

Simple answer is that in the beginning it can help you get through some of the learning curve, and you have a place for some sympathetic responses + support for your trading woes.

A good trade room should help you make money while you learn. Unfortunately, with 100’s of methods and as many trade rooms out there, how can you wade through the junk and concentrate on the better one’s?

I have a few criteria that I think are an absolute must for a real trade room, where your chances of succeeding and MAKING MONEY WHILE LEARNING are high.

[ul]
[li]You must be able to see the moderating traders charts in real time.
[/li][li] You must be able to see the trades entered in real time either through the moderators order dom, or chart trader or some method where it is apparent that the trade was entered, filled, and managed.
[/li][li] You must be able to follow the trades, or at least most of them. This issues gets a bit difficult in a fast market and may need some adjusting.
[/li][/ul]

To my mind there are three basic types of trading rooms:

[ul]
[li]One is where it’s just pure trading, minimal instruction.
[/li][li]The other is where the education has more emphasis, and trading takes a back seat…hence few trades.
[/li][li]The third is a hybrid; a steady stream of trading towards a set room goal and a scheduled series of ongoing educational sessions in addition to the room’s daily trading.
[/li][/ul]

So, first you need to decide which is right for you.

Here’s a tip:

If you are considering trading education in a particular trading method because you have none of your own, then look for the education emphasis. Otherwise, if you have a few good set-ups and have some of your trading education already underway, look for a trading room that will add to your knowledge and help you make money as you learn their methods and tools.

If, however, you have traded a bit and have some tools and know some set-ups and yet nothing is working or going well for you, then look to the hybrid.

Regardless, remember the [B]#1, #2 and #3 rule.[/B]

[U]DO NOT SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS[/U].
If you are unable to see the trade moderators charts and his trade entries then pass that place up. It may be a good place, it may not. But without the visual verifiable evidence you will find yourself not only having to watch your own chart, but also having to compile in your head what is happening, and keep that picture going along with all the other pressures of trading.

I do not care what excuse is given…there is no excuse for not showing real time moderating trades taken in real time.

Technology is not an issue, money cannot possibly be the issue, so it must be something else?

Let’s see…fear, exposure, stop fluffing, doubling up or bad trading habits or what? You tell me.

So, there is the absolute newbie (and it’s going to be painful) who really needs a lot of luck to avoid the garbage rooms.
There is the trader who is just looking to improve, and there is the trader who really needs a better set of tools and methods to get him out of his funk.

So, if you have found a room then the best way to take advantage of the room is to spend a few weeks just listening and watching

To be continued…

35

LETSEETHEPIPS Interesting thoughts on an ideal trading room. But here’s the thing. Theres a saying, ‘those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach’. There are some big names out there, earning even bigger sums instructing newbies on how to trade. But if they are so successful, why are they all charging for their service. They don’t need the money.

The stock answer is I need to supplement my income whilst i’m teaching others. This is absolute twaddle! Most of their income is from teaching. The really successful traders are the pro’s and private individuals who don’t feel the need to shout their success from the roof tops. I belong to the first group and know many traders from the second group. These people are happy to carry on making large amounts of money in their own quite way. They are also as a general rule, happy to give advise and instruction along the way and for free. What they won’t do is be railroaded into doing this or that. Into supplying this chart or that. They give their advise and you may do with it as you like. I would suggest trying out information supplied in demo mode for a month. If its good advise, it will soon show.

The only people I ‘teach’ are newbies at work and my immediate family. One group i’m already paid to work with. The second, I love. If you really want good advise, go and find a genuinely successful trader (they are out there) and ask them very nicely how its done. Here endeth the lesson!

36

And I agreeieth with that. Well said.

37

I agree that the aggressive, proactive marketers & slick salesmen plying their wares out there are primarily geared up & wired into skilfully parting the virgin & na�ve trading masses from their dollars.
Much of what they supposedly teach is merely re-hashed, regurgitated material that someone with a little time, effort & patience could easily research & unearth on their own.

What you won�t & don�t see on these showcourt trading forums however, are those professional players who earn a substantial (additional) income stream from charging fee�s for in-house or recommended tuition & tutorledge services, often run alongside, or in tandem with, their private client accounts.

There are a good percentage of high net worth clients roaming around out there with huge amounts of “spare/accessible” cash deposits, only too happy to shell out heavy monthly fee�s or percentage tiers to successful players willing to advise, coach & assist these smart, clued up entrepreneurs in maximizing their “spare pot” deposits.

Often this money is short-end capital. Floating investment funding awaiting an investment opportunity or injection input.

If those clients are receiving satisfactory (trading) returns on their main capital streams & are sufficiently motivated to utilize part of their floating funds to generate above short-term, average returns from the stock/currency markets on a more [I]active basis[/I], then you can be sure they�ll pay handsomely to the folks running/trading those accounts in return for ongoing top tier advice & coaching!

And what normally happens in those circumstances is that the odd one or two will tell close family/friends/business colleagues etc etc & you then begin to generate & build some real heavy duty contacts/income.

But like I said, that�s the other more subtle side of this coin. You won�t hear about it on public chat sites or forums either.

It has nothing to do with your argument about supplementing income or being so successful that they don�t need to associate themselves with that type of operation. We�re not talking about [I]�$250 per month chop shops�[/I] here, which I appreciate is where you�re coming from.

Successful players who are approached with this type of gig will be pulling in +10 times that per month for each client. Hell, that aint even a piss in the bowl to some of these punters.

They got more money sticking out their back pocket than most average folks earn in 5 yrs.
Rack up a small, closed circle of 50-75 of those suited & booted hotshots & go do the math.

You think it�s worth it now? :wink:

And if you think that�s pie in the sky or it doesn�t go on out there, then you�re definitely mixing in the wrong circles!

38

ANDRE

‘Your smarter than the average cookie’… dear god i’m I that old to remeber that phrase!

Yes of course your 100% right. There are two ways to go here. Either invest that big money in a managed fund. They will take 20% of the profits generated and a further 2% management charges. But and I believe i’ve said this somewhere before… 78% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Or and this happens to me alot. Ask a pro trader friend to manage your fund for you. And your right, 50 - 70 well heeled people can add alot of extra cash to your income. The thing is, if your already earning a six figure income managing one account at work and trading your own personal account outside of working hours, do you really want the added hassle? In my experience, the genuinely successful traders don’t want that hassle. Plus don’t forget if its close friends or family and you make a loss or worse. It could rapidly turn into a personal nightmare.

Good advise, thanks but no thanks! :slight_smile:

39

Ah no, sorry either I didn�t make myself clear or you misunderstood what I said.

The 50-75 example is extra to the normal trade account deal.

I was talking folks who already have large amounts working inside the trading fund(s).
You then get a few seeking extra (short-term) returns on spare cash slopping around in time/quick turnaround accounts.

These characters usually have varying reasons for this type of activity.

Some will be interested in learning the basic mechanics of how a single or combo market operates�.they might have spare time in which to play & get a buzz from cracking off their own deals�.or they simply don�t want the hassle & prefer to take direct, regular advice/recomms from the trader(s).

Either way, they�ll pay top dollar for the privilege if the tuition stacks up.

I meant that the client(s) themselves inform their own friends/family/colleagues etc.

Hahaha, fortunately, we don�t need to invest any of our own money in this gig. We got alternative investment homes for that!

There�s plenty of willing �hot $� sloshing around out there without opening our own wallets. :wink:

Anyhow, this is an interesting (thread) exercise in observing folks psychology around one more cog within the ‘fear/greed’ wheel. Which is what the brunt of it contains.

40

And of course that�s one of the few times where you�ll witness the devil & the angel sat at the same table!

Wherever there�s the lure of sweet smelling dollars, you can lay decent odds a foul stench will be lurking just around the corner.

Which is why it�s imperative to do your homework when attempting to cultivate that sweet aroma.

Trouble is, the folks you really want & need in your corner are usually out of reach to you financially, & even if they�re not, the decent ones will be fully subscribed with a waiting list in tow!

Knock once for yes & once for no�lol :smiley: