Political Opinion

Up until the 1970s the US was a manufacturing power house. We made almost everything and we were the world’s #1 exporter because we were able to produce some of the highest quality goods for the lowest prices, and yet our workers were the highest paid workers in the world.

Prior to the 1970s people would brag about how they bought something imported… It was America that made all the affordable products. Imports were more expensive compared to the stuff we made.

What changed? Well along with the wave of UNCONSTITUTIONAL regulations, We also defaulted on our debt in 1971.

I’ll give you a brief history lesson…

After WW2 we proposed a system called Bretton Woods. The Bretton Woods system made it so that instead of foreign Central Banks backing up their currencies with gold, they would back them up with the dollar and at the time of creation, the dollar was backed up by gold. Of course, that’s the only reason the system made sense, if the dollar was backed by nothing than we couldn’t have conned the world into signing up for this system.

It made sense. Hold dollars because the dollar is backed by Gold, at the time America was the world’s richest country, we had the largest trade surplus, we were the worlds biggest creditor nation, we had 90% of the gold, you can earn interest holding dollars, you can’t holding gold… Good deal for the world right?

Well it was actually a great deal for us, because the minute the government got that privilege they abused it, because now all of the sudden, we could pay for our imports by printing money. Technically the government was supposed to make sure the money was totally backed by gold, but that didn’t stop the government, they just lied. They wrote checks that they couldn’t really cash, assuming that the other countries would just not care, or not notice. Well after the 1960s when spending went through the roof with the Vietnam war, the war on poverty, the gun and butter economy, the great society and all these government programs, we were running large deficits. Some of our creditors began to notice this and realized that we couldn’t possibly have enough gold to back up these IOU’s, which is what Federal Reserve Notes were, they were promises to pay real money (gold).

So rather than acting responsibly and allowing deflation, cutting government spending and doing the right thing, the politicians did the expedient thing and an almost unthinkable thing… They Defaulted. Nixon basically told our Creditors that “We promised to give you gold for your federal reserve notes, we are now going to give you nothing… You can hold on to them if you want, but you are not going to get any gold.”

After that, the dollar lost about 2/3rds during the 1970s. Oil prices went from $3 a barrel to $30 a barrel. The dollar devaluation is why oil prices went up, it wasn’t entirely because of the Arabs, It was because of Nixon and what the government did. It was because of all the money we printed diluted the value of the dollar. Oil Prices didn’t go up at all in terms of gold. The price of Gold went from $35 to $800…

A lot of other interesting things happened in the 1970s as well. Loads of women entered the work force, and it wasn’t because they were liberated. They had been liberated a long time before that. But as a result of all this inflation and all these taxes, husbands could no longer afford to support their families, so the women had to get jobs too just to keep their families afloat.

Look at this Chart.


The red line denotes when the Gold Standard was ended. Notice how wages stop rising with productivity. That is because inflation eroded the value of wages. If you get a 1.5% raise, you are still making less each year. Even the government’s fudged numbers say inflation averages about 3% a year. You would need a 3% raise EVERY YEAR just to make the same amount of money and that is assuming the government’s numbers are accurate (lol).

But the dollar didn’t totally collapse in the early 1980s because Federal Reserve Chairman Volcker raised interest rates to 20% and cooled inflation a little bit and created some confidence in the dollar. So the world continued to function and the dollar still remains the reserve currency of the world.

But the system should have failed, that is the problem. We should have gone back to a gold standard. The problem with the system we have now is that a Swiss Frank or an Aussie Dollar and all these other foreign currencies aren’t backed by gold because they were backed by dollars which were supposed to be backed by gold. But if the GBP is backed by the dollar and the dollar is backed by nothing than the GBP is backed by nothing.

So that is basically when we embarked on this Giant experiment that has failed every time it has been tried. The whole world is now on this Fiat money system… But of course, once the world knew the dollar was backed by nothing, now it was so much easier for the US government to run deficits. Much easier than it was when they had to pretend the dollar was totally backed by gold under the Bretton Woods system. At least back then, when LBJ was ballooning govt spending, he had to worry that a foreign nation might figure out what was going on. So Basically, When we told the world, “you are going to get nothing for your dollars” then there was no limit to how many dollars we could print.

And that is when the US economy began this massive transformation from the world’s biggest creditor, to the world’s biggest debtor. From the worlds biggest exporter, to the worlds biggest importer. Everything changed when we began to live off the printing press and debt. Because when the dollar can be just printed out of thin air and the world is going to take it, we can buy all these products from our trading partners for nothing.

And for a while this system was maintained. But now we have this entire bubble… this entire phony economy that is predicated on Americans borrowing money that we didn’t save, to buy products that we can’t afford and didn’t make. And this whole thing is phony. All of our economic policy today is designed to sustain this. Nobody wants to allow it to be corrected, because the correction happens in a recession.

All this consumption has been financed with debt, it’s not real prosperity. It’s phony. It’s like looking at half of a balance sheet. You are looking at the assets but you are ignoring all the liabilities. Or on an income statement, you look at the income, but you don’t look at the expenses. We are not better off because the GDP went up, we are worse off. Where did that money come from? We borrowed it. And what did we do with it? We spent it on consumption. We didn’t invest it, we don’t have more factory equipment… we blew it. The government blew it.

I always find it interesting how politicians talk about cracking down on China. Both Obama and Romney do it. I’m not sure if they realize what this entails, because it would seriously hurt the US economy.

When the Chinese are making things for Americans, they need land labor and capital, people have to work hard in factories to produce the things we buy. What do we give them in return? Just some money that we ran off a printing press. And what do they do with it? Nothing. All they can do with it is loan it back to us and buy treasuries. And what are treasuries? Just more dollars.

And a lot of people think that the Chinese are benefiting from this relationship. They are not gaining at all, we are the ones benefiting in the short run. We get all the stuff and they get all the work. Well, what good is all the work without the stuff? See, they are trying to say that the Chinese get all the jobs. Well so what? The slaves had jobs. It wasn’t a good deal for the slaves. These jobs are not a good deal for the Chinese if we get all the stuff they produce. The whole reason countries export is so they can import something else. Well what good is exporting if you don’t get anything in return? The whole idea behind exporting is not to create jobs, it is really to eliminate jobs. The reason to export is so you can import something else. Because we want to consume and how do you consume as much as possible? If there is something that you can produce really well or that you can make more efficiently than people in some other nation, rather than trying to make everything, you just make the things you make best, and then you trade for things that other people make better than you. But the whole reason to export something is because you want to buy something else with that money. You don’t export just so you can have a job, that would be a waste of labor.

What happens when we trade with the rest of the world is, they send us stuff, and what we basically say is “I got nothing for you… But I have an IOU.”. And they take it because it is the reserve currency. And maybe in the back of their mind they think they can use it to buy something. But meanwhile what are they going to buy? What are we making? Every year we make less and less stuff that they want. The stuff that the Chinese want to buy is all made in China. I mean, that’s where the stuff that we want to buy is.

Imagine 4 people stranded on an island. 3 Chinese and 1 American. In order to survive they divide jobs. The first Chinese person fishes for food, the 2nd hunts for food and the 3rd looks for vegitation that they can eat. What is the American’s job? To consume all the food. Today most economists act like if it wasn’t for the American eating most of the food, the Chinese would be worse off. I don’t buy that. In my opinion, the Chinese would be better off if they dropped the dead weight that is America.

If the Yuan rose in value, that would dramatically improve the standard of living for people in China, they would be able to buy more of what they make instead of shipping all of it off for Americans to consume.

Edit: I’m not trying to bash on America, I am from America. I’m just trying to point out how unproductive we have become as a result of the government and our monetary system. All I am saying is that the Chinese don’t really [I]NEED[/I] us to gobble up everything they make. I think they could manage to consume their own stuff if they allowed the Yuan to rise.

Election Forecasts - FiveThirtyEight Blog - NYTimes.com

What are you on about? Obama is still in the lead according to the stats.

But those lines…Obama broke support and Romney broke resistance lol. That makes this current swing corrective and a break test continuation pattern would put Romney ahead. :stuck_out_tongue:

haha nice

sman, i do have a hypothetical for you. I don’t know if it’s the real situation but i’m curious.

If you own a business, and realize you have to move it overseas to be competitive.
Do you stay here? Or move it overseas?

Nate Silver’s recent article on Ohio Ohio Ohio is also pretty interesting….

Oct. 22: Ohio Has 50-50 Chance of Deciding Election - NYTimes.com

2012 Presidential Polls - 2012 Election - POLITICO.com

Guess we’re looking at different polls! Too many of them…

No government would allow their country to go into a severe depression, to bring back the Gold Standard, that’s where you people fail at your logic.

The reserve currency is backed by the US military, gold has no relevance in an economy run within nations. It won’t buy bread and water, look at the fall of the soviet union, their Gold was worthless when their economy could not be sustained.

Printing money is the future, the Gold Standard was the past, spending is the way to prosperity, austerity will devastate any country that tries it, that is why Europe is still in a mess.

The countries in Europe don’t want to spend to save their people, but want to preserve their high value currency, and that is why 20 percent of the people in Spain and Greece, don’t have jobs.

It is immoral to fire Americans, and send their jobs to China.

Democrats are proposing increasing heavy taxes on businesses that do this, Romney does not want to deter this because he made millions from doing this, so that says a lot about him.

I would go out of business, rather than betray my fellow country men, and fire them, because I am patriotic unlike greedy republicans.

But if we’re protectionist, then no American businesses will have to close, the competition overseas will be limited because of the increased taxation.

Indeed. In either case, it’s good that Obama faces a fierce battle for the presidency as he has not delivered on his promises to the extent one should be able to require. Also, as republicans go, Mr Romney seems like a ok person compared to many others.

As has been noted in some articles however, the GOP may face a dark future of Dem dominance as the ethnic make up of the US changes and whites lose their dominance. 2012 may be the the last stand of the GOP.

Personally I don’t much love either of the two, but I think that Obama has played the hand he was dealt better than many give him credit for.

umm…

you do realize if you go out of business, your fellow countrymen won’t have a job anyway.

Edit: Actually, if you did send your labor force overseas you would still need some people here. So you would have saved at least some of the jobs, instead of losing all of them

Doesn’t mean he’s not against it just means he’s anopportunist

an opportunist is immoral. hehe.

I read a couple of smans posts, and I have to wonder why is he even here.

sman don’t you realize when you win a trade, somebody else is on the losing end?

Your idea of patriotism is just pure selfishness. You would rather nobody have a job than somebody who just happens to live in another country.

I’m sorry, but this is the impression I get from you and I believe I can sum up your posts into one sentence.

‘I need the government to tell me what to do, or I’ll do something stupid.’

Yes, gold and silver are archaic… That’s why they have held their value, unlike the dollar which is steadily bleeding out value thanks to the nonsensical policies that you espouse. How can you complain about the rich getting richer and the poor and middle class getting smaller and at the same time support a fiat monetary system which is sucking the wealth out of people with lower income? Look at that Wages vs Productivity graph again. How can you justify that?

“Printing money is the future… Spending is the way to prosperity”

Money means nothing. It doesn’t matter how much money there is, what matters is how much stuff there is. The money just determines what the stuff is priced. How much you sell the stuff for. If you don’t produce stuff, it doesn’t matter how much money you have, you are just going to have higher prices.

If printing money is such a brilliant idea, why did the Nazi’s try to bomb Britain with counterfeit pounds? Look up Operation Bernhard. The Nazi’s were planning on dumping money all over Britain. (obviously not to the scale that Krugman and Bernanke would approve of) Under your theory that would have backfired on the Nazi’s and stimulated the British economy during WW2… I mean, you can’t honestly believe that SPENDING money and PRINTING money are the path to prosperity. If that were true, America should have become an absolute paradise after 1971, given the fact that we have printed trillions of dollars since then and have racked up 16 trillion in debt. Really, why isn’t everybody driving a Bentley by now, especially since we have 58 Trillion in total debt. Why hasn’t the economy soared since 1971? Infact the standard of living has actually gone up at a much slower pace than it did when we had a gold standard.

I mean, if the gold standard is so horrible, why is it that we had the fastest and largest period of economic growth under a gold standard? We had at one point we even had a 10 year streak of 6.8% Real GDP growth when we were on the gold standard and consumer debt was almost non existent (People weren’t in bondage to those banksters that you love). Why haven’t we managed to surpass that on a paper system, even with our massive expansion of consumer and national debt?

As far as Greece and Italy… How did they get to this point? Was it not because they spent and borrowed too much money? I mean, they were following your economic advice… They spent and spent and spent… Where is the prosperity now?

And this is going to play out in the US on a much grander scale.

The only reason the government can pay the interest on the debt is because interest rates are extremely low. Almost at 0%. What happens when rates go up? They won’t be able to afford to pay for the debt, we won’t be any more able to pay our bonds back than the Greeks can. For a while Interest rates were at record lows in Greece, and the Greeks had no problems. But then interest rates went up and now they have a crisis. The same thing is going to happen here. Now people like you think that think this is never going to happen because interest rates are never going to rise. Well that’s impossible. They have to rise. What is the consequence of keeping interest rates artificially low? We continue to screw up our economy, instead of allowing market forced to correct the imbalances, we make the imbalances bigger.

Stimulus is heroin. It’s a toxic sedative. The more the Fed and the govt inject the economy with heroin, the worse things will get. Yeah, everything feels great when you are taking heroin (Not that I would know) but it doesn’t last… The heroin wears off. And when that heroin wears off you start to get withdraws. The withdraws are a recession. You need to go through the withdrawals to get better, Yes it is painful but it is necessary if you want to recover. Look at the housing bubble. The govt injects the economy with heroin because we started to go through withdraws after the tech bubble burst. Everything feels amazing!.. and then the withdrawals come and we have the 08 crash.

What did the govt and the Fed do during the 08 crash? Inject the economy with EVEN MORE heroin. 1% interest rates, easy credit and lax lending standards caused a housing bubble? Solution: Lower interest rates to practically 0%, expand credit even more…

We can’t do this much longer, at some point we overdose on the heroin. Everytime we take another round of heroin, it takes even more heroin to stimulate us the next time.

What we have today is not a result of free markets… The ball is in your court. We have the fiat currency you support, we have the easy credit you support… the govt is doing more than it was given the power to do in the constitution.

You have the utmost faith in people like Bernanke that laughed at the Idea of a housing bubble in 2005.

I mean, you are trusting the government that said we have to do QE1-2 and now Infinity, they said we had to go into Iraq because they had Weapons of Mass Destruction… They were wrong. Their economic plan is a weapon of mass destruction.

These cronies in Washington are like little kids with a chemistry set, and they keep on throwing these chemicals together and they think they are going to discover a miracle, but they are going to blow us all up.

Unlike you, I don’t put my faith in a federal government that has violated its founding charter, that is full of special interest and lobbyists, that has failed on numerous occasions. We need Redistribution. Redistribution of POWER. Take all this power AWAY from the Federal government and redistribute it back to the individuals and the states they live in. The Federal Government has proven that it is nothing more than a corrupt den of wolves.

Yeah protectionism sounds like a great idea! Let’s isolate our economy from the world and drive up prices for everything at home, squeezing the poor even more. Let’s Not fix our internal imbalances and the underlining factors that are forcing businesses out of America, let’s just ban imports! I’m sure those greedy businessmen really enjoy sending jobs to China. It’s a game to them right? It’s not because they are economically being forced out of America, it’s just because they hate Americans. Yeah, that’s it. Facepalm

You would rather go out of business than “betray” your fellow countrymen? Cool. That’s assuming you managed to jump through the hoops and regulations to actually start a business in the first place. And how will closing your business be helping your fellow countrymen? I guess by shutting down your businesses it wouldn’t end the jobs of the people that you hire stateside for logistics and such.

And still you are totally ignoring the monetary problems I previously listed that have led to the mass migration of manufacturing jobs to China. Of course it’s not the government’s fault! It’s the fault of those Greedy businessmen!

It’s like somebody moves into your neighborhood and you decide to vandalize their home, tell them what they can and can’t do inside their home and steal a good portion of their money. And then you have the nerve to get angry at them for moving to a different neighborhood. Why would they want to stay in that neighborhood when they are better off elsewhere? Government is the problem… get that through your head. GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM. These “evil” people don’t enjoy exporting jobs. They don’t get a tingle up their leg from firing their fellow countrymen, they do it because they want to stay in business. If they try to keep the business going in America it will go under. There is no sense in EVERYBODY losing. People aren’t honey bees. America isn’t a bee hive. We have free spirits, we have our own interests, talents and desires in life. When the government isn’t screwing everything up, America grows as every individual works towards independently to peruse their own goals. Americans aren’t pawns they are people.

Man, I wish the world was as simple as you make it out to be! That would be great! Print money Instant Wealth. Ban Trade Instant Growth. Restrict Freedom Woohoo!

Did you get your economic and political ideas from the Orwell’s 1984?

Don’t you just love it when someone blames the “rich republicans” for everything?

Like there’s no rich democrats… And they bank offshore too.

Maybe you’re not following me, the way the Republicans and business men have the country set up, they have to move jobs over seas or they will go out of business. At least that is what they want us to believe, many times all they have to do is take a small profit loss, to be patriotic. Romney made millions of dollars firing people, he didn’t have to do that, he was at the very top of competition. He and others like him at the top, paved the way of this new type of competition created by outsourcing jobs, instead of taking a small pay cut.

With Democratic leadership, heavy taxes are placed on business that ship jobs overseas, which makes it less competitive to do that.

You views are the problem with America, the market controls of the government are what keep society fair and balanced.

I assure you, when Mitt Romney fired Americans to make millions of dollars in profits, he was certainly getting a “tingling feeling in his leg.”

You put too much faith in these guys, they are your heroes, that is why they are able to manipulate the market to their favors, and to the detriment of the majority of Americans. Protectionist policies will not do as you say, they will limit their profits by forcing them to make reasonable prices for the American market, and deter them from profiting more than they should, by increasing taxation on outsourcing.

The problem with you, is that you believe Mitt Romney should be allowed to make millions of dollars, and ungodly amounts of profits, I believe his profit margins should be mitigated through government policies on the market, because government will provide an equitable redistribution of wealth to all Americans, rather than keeping most of it with the one percent.

Of course I mean a government run by Democrats, not republicans, like during the Reagan and Bush eras, who allowed this mess through government with ‘business friendly policies’.

And how did the Republicans set up the country to make it necessary to move jobs overseas? Are you referring to my previous post when I mentioned how Nixon closed the gold standard and the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs ensued, or are you babbling on about how they hate Americans again?

I understand that you are in to the whole tribal politics thing where your side is always right and the other side is always evil, but there comes a point when you need to realize the absurdity of what you are saying. This country didn’t get to this point because of one political party… The destruction of America is bipartisan. We have gotten to this point because both the democrats and the republicans have expanded the role and scope of government beyond the realm of the constitution.

If we had simply followed the document that this country was founded on and took the time to amend it if we found something that actually needed editing, we wouldn’t be spinning down the toilet right now.

And let me see if I understand you correctly. You think that heavy taxes on businesses that are shipping jobs overseas is going to help? So if they don’t ship jobs overseas they will not have an economically viable business that is capable of surviving let alone growing… And you think taxes them heavily is going to solve the problem?

That’s beyond crazy, the instant your holy democrats tax the heck out of them they will either go out of business or renounce their citizenship to this God awful country and move to a country that is somewhat free. God forbid we allow America to be a free country. That’s crazy talk.

The founders of this country went bonkers over a 3 pence tax on tea… I can only imagine what they would do today.

That is all fear mongering, Romney will not go out of business because he has to keep jobs here, even you can see that he is making too much when he ships jobs overseas.

The exit from the gold standard is not what allowed this, it was the deregulation started by Reagan, your hero of course, which allowed businesses to begin the process of exploiting the wealth of the middle class, through relaxing government regulations set in place on business from the Great Depression, to keep them from draining the wealth out of the middle class, as they did once before.