For those with access BBC 2 tonight 9 pm BST - Horizon - “Stopping male suicide.”
I have my doubts - since this is BBC (not NOW known for “impartiality” ) and it already refers in the write up to “people” - We’ll see whether they have the Balls to approach the real reasons or whether it is simply a “whitewashing” excercise where they blame the victim !
Perhaps it will help to expose some of the issues ? - we’ll see !
Hey Manxx, Mrs Viper and I do the same, lots of hours spend voluntarily comforting those in need.
Now as far as the suicide situation. If we take some time and look society itself, worldwide that is, we have already reached past the tipping point. Much of what we see is nurture, very few children, who come from disastrous home environments will be able to escape the cycle of depression, drug abuse, and early death. This is where the “it takes a village” to raise a child can be so debilitating. No not a village, but loving parents, or guardians if you will. Teachers work their tails off to try to help kids, then the kids go home to a toxic environment. This stays with them their whole lives, and sometimes manifests as suicide.
Also the fact that humanity is at a financial turning point, does not help either. Most men, by nature, design/evolution, (check your own box) psychologically have a predisposition to provide and protect. It is inborn, take away a mans dignity, his ability to protect and provide. Well it is a recipe for disaster. And of course, men are not supposed to have “mental” illness, so this makes it even worse. One of the hardest things to do is to treat a warfighter or leo with ptsd, they have a huge problem admitting they have a problem, being 10 foot tall and bullet proof.
Then on the other hand we have nature, the genetic disposition for mental illness, we know of a family where the father has been in and out of facilities with Schizophrenia, and they have just had their 4th child, obviously the children are already showing signs of not being well.
Like I said, past the tipping point. However, when that caldera in Yellowstone goes off all of this will be a moot point.
The Ever Not Too Optimistic Of Humanity Solving Their Own Problems VIPER
It will be repeated tonight a 2:00 am BST - basically it was as I suspected. The headline was good - that’s about all 
Nothing done at all to really address the problem - just proposals to follow american type leads like preventing suicide from the golden gates bridge by surrounding it with nets ! - shoving the issue elsewhere ! and little attempt to actually address the “Male” part - just “suicide” in general.
There was one part where the “Professor” explained that men tend to invest a lot of emotional commitment in their “Partnership” and when the partnership breaks down, the men are (he said “Feel”) isolated and do not have the same type of support network as women do - nobody to talk to at all !
I think you make some good points there @TradeViper. Do you think the raise in the past few generations of state sponsored divorce, means that parents are less likely now to “work together” towards bringing their kids up with a stable and loving home life ?
How many kids (especially with reference to boys) do not have a strong male role model nowadays, to teach them “how to become men” ?
That is certainly what boys have been taught over the generations to aim for - whether it is “instinctive” behaviour I’m less sure - but boys of our generation were certainly taught to be “rescuers” (See drama triangle) whilst girls were taught to “play” victim to the male role and let their “husbands” look after and protect them. This by and large is what we have endeavoured to teach our own kids. (My opinion only)
Now we perhaps should consider the effects of the “divorce” situation. Now instead of looking to their husbands to “protect them” the newly adult girls are tending to look to “solicitors” to use the law to protect them FROM their “husbands”. I know a few divorce solicitors and wthout fail they relish acting for the woman - because it is so easy to win. Whereas none of them really like acting for the male as the best they can do is a meagre “damage limitation excercise”.
This then puts the husband in a quandry - all he (often) wanted to do was “protect his woman” in the traditional way, but now he is confused that he himself is being cast as “Persecutor / Abuser” - total bewilderment in many cases !
The new “third wave feminists” - whilst purporting to “strengthen women” actually are just strengthening the “victim role” of woman and playing on it - by dubbing all men “Child abusers and Rapists”
Then as well there is the unnatural situation where men are NOT required to go to war on behalf of their “queen and country” to be killed or to kill. That situation has not existed as far as I know in the whole history of the human race ! Nowadays any physical “altercation” at all, is demonised and the Social Justice Warriors even take outrage and umbrage at the sligghtest perceived “Rudeness” ! Yet for thousands of years men have been trained and indoctrinated to be warlike and as you say “Protective” of their own families.
The old adage "Sticks and stones will break my bones - but words will never hurt me" has been entirely turned on it’s head - Yet men are not and have never been taught to value “words” as much as the physical presence, much less how to use them as tools and weapons ! Men are (in my opinion again) entirely defenseless against this culture of victimhood which is being weaponised against them. ANd nobody is even trying to understand, or help men to understand their place in the world - as it is evolving !
Male suicide and rapidly dropping sperm counts may be related symptoms of this dissonance of instruction and lack of comprehension by males (AND females - AND “Professionals” in the field ! )
Hey F, whats up
**[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]**
I think you make some good points there @TradeViper. Do you think the raise in the past few generations of state sponsored divorce, means that parents are less likely now to “work together” towards bringing their kids up with a stable and loving home life ?
Well, here in the states, there was a famous quote, “as long as there is an able bodied man in the household, they will get nothing”. So if this rumored quote is accurate and is part of the “welfare law” that you get less if you are married, basically, it is a marriage penalty, also here in the US there used to be a marriage penalty for taxes. I don’t think the tax penalty was much of a issue when it was part of the tax code. But that welfare penalty, no doubt contributes to the lack of marriage, and explosion of single mothers.
As far as state sponsored divorce, not so much in the South, with coasties, yeah, maybe the same as across the pond.
How many kids (especially with reference to boys) do not have a strong male role model nowadays, to teach them “how to become men” ?
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Wow, I don’t know, there is always Thor. Bahahahahaha
[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]
That is certainly what boys have been taught over the generations to aim for - whether it is “instinctive” behaviour I’m less sure - but boys of our generation were certainly taught to be “rescuers” (See drama triangle) whilst girls were taught to “play” victim to the male role and let their “husbands” look after and protect them. This by and large is what we have endeavoured to teach our own kids. (My opinion only)
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The instinctive part basically has to do with two things, the way boys and girls brains are wired, also the difference between estrogen and testosterone. It is very clear that testosterone makes for agressivity, and physical power, (read this as big muscles), and estrogen makes for less muscle mass and a focus on nurturing. Obviously the Brain had to be equipped to handle the specific differences found in either case. Now I am talking Pure Biology, not deviations from the norm.
I.E. No matter how many steroids a woman takes she could never be as big as Arnold or Mentzer, and no matter how much estrogen a man takes they will never look like Sophia or Audrey. The base biology prevents this from happening. From the skeletal structure to folial cells, everything is put together to function harmoniously, at a statistical baseline. As I said I am not talking genetic outliers, But a Statistical Baseline. Just by the biology one can see what each side is best at, again statistical baseline.
Now does that mean a man cannot be nurturing, no. But when the boyfriend dumps the daughter, or cheats on the daughter in high school, what is dads reaction, and what is mom’s. Dad wants to tie the ex to an ant hill and pour honey over him, and mom says lets talk about this.
Dad should be able to tell his kids I love you, and mom should be able to say “no” to the 13 yr old daughter who wants an Ozzie Tattoo, unless of course Mom already has one.
There should always be some crossover for balance, but biology and genetic inheritance do play a large part.
As far as victim-hood, here in the US it depends on the region you are from. In the big coastal cities, yes women generally portray themselves as victims. But in the south it is a bit different, while southern women tend to portray a demure, and genteel exterior, well I leave you with this.
Now don’t get me started on Hispanic Women, especially Cuban’s, “oh hi dear, no, just readin on Babypips, yeah OK I’ll take the garbage out, weewww, that was close”.
[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]
Now we perhaps should consider the effects of the “divorce” situation. Now instead of looking to their husbands to “protect them” the newly adult girls are tending to look to “solicitors” to use the law to protect them FROM their “husbands”. I know a few divorce solicitors and wthout fail they relish acting for the woman - because it is so easy to win. Whereas none of them really like acting for the male as the best they can do is a meagre “damage limitation excercise”.
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Yeah, Lawyer gonna Lawyer, and don’t get started on Personal injury and Workers Comp.
[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]
Then as well there is the unnatural situation where men are NOT required to go to war on behalf of their “queen and country” to be killed or to kill. That situation has not existed as far as I know in the whole history of the human race ! Nowadays any physical “altercation” at all, is demonised and the Social Justice Warriors even take outrage and umbrage at the sligghtest perceived “Rudeness” ! Yet for thousands of years men have been trained and indoctrinated to be warlike and as you say “Protective” of their own families.
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Well I grew up during the Vietnam war, when I was about 8 yrs old I asked my Opa why were the troops there, he said, “who the H— knows” I was surprised by the “profanity”, and he was a patriot, who really believed in the US and military. So with the subsequent military actions, this kind of dampened the desire for warfare. As for as physical altercation, yeah you are right about that, especially Across the Pond and Europe.
[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]
Male suicide and rapidly dropping sperm counts may be related symptoms of this dissonance of instruction and lack of comprehension by males (AND females - AND “Professionals” in the field ! )
[/quote]
I think that the sperm count thing is like global climate change, a lot of statistics, but no one really looks at where the data comes from, and how reliable it is. By the way, here in the south, white southerners are still having loads of kids, so I am not so sure of the data on the sperm deal.
Male suicide, now that is different, yup it is in general society, societies view of men, and lack of mental health care.
[quote=“Falstaff, post:40, topic:152491”]
What do you think of the fonts with the latest update
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In general they stink, but I am tolerating it, the Robot Elders are aware.
The Ever Making Up Quotes VIPER
Thank you for your support there @ria_rose - That vid had some impact on me - I have to confess - mainly because I saw the issue from my own perspective as a problem for WASP males (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) - but apparently not - that lecturer was about as Black as you can get, but still had the same sensitivities. And one of the problems which some males encounter.
As you said very early in this thread ;
Yet the males on this forum are either “Ignoring their feelings” as per that lecturer - or seemingly just refusing to talk about them.
Come on lads, we have a couple of lads on here willing to “Have a go” at looking at the issues. I KNOW it feels uncomfortable to show some vulnerability, but TRY it ! You CAN discuss “Feelings” - We’re all relatively aonymous here - Give it a go ! 
[Edit - thanks to @purtle and @sebastiano. Thanks too to @TradeViper. I’ll come back to some of your points soon 
]
Those TED lectures seem to have some good speakers on them and I thank @PipMeHappy for introducing me to them on a different thread.
Here’s another, which I find extremely relevant to this thread and also my “Father’s day” thread ;
It is called “Meeting the enemy” and I find it incredibly educational in considering a good many of the problems of perception which these discusions evoke. The lady contracts the issue which prompted me to start this thread and presents a balanced view of a great many issues - and she seems to get somewhat closer to the basic truths !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY
The film has also won “awards” and if you look it up on “wiki” - you can see that the “ministry of truth” have already started with the “smear campaign”
The Film is called “Red Pill” - not “redhill” as she seems to say on the discussion, and the discussions and interviews around it are quite revealing too !
[Edit the Male suicide issue in apparently worldwide and she says on interviews elsewhere that 75% of suicide in Australia (where the film met huge resistance) are males also ! ]
The current government has recently committed to tackling mental health but of course it is never enough to diagnose mental health if you do not address causes, e.g. lack of future prospects and employment opportunities or the ability to start and raise a family (even just a single child).
Interestingly, the suicide act (UK) was only introduced in 1961, so in fifty+ years it has been a slow progression from morally and legally condemning suicide survivors or the families of suicide victims to a more sympathetic look at what can be done to prevent suicide.
The latest figures are here: Suicides in the UK - Office for National Statistics
What it shows is that men between 30 and 44 years old are the ones most at risk. The male - to -female rate is nearly 4 to 1. However, overall suicides are in a downward trend nationally since the 1981 ONS records began, as their graph shows:
Another angle on this comes from my commitment to the cause of assisted suicide legalisation in the UK and Italy, my two countries, because it is one thing to want to prevent suicide when life has meaning but it is entirely another to force someone whose life no longer has meaning - as in the case for someone with a terminal illness who has extremely poor quality of life - to keep on living against their will.
So if men were to do something it would be to look out for one another and try to be better at supporting one another. The reasons for suicide are many and it is never enough to address only one of them. The thousands of women suicides should also not be deemed ‘lesser’ just because their numbers are smaller: it is important to see where similar causes bridge the genders and address them first.
Just my two-cent. 
Interesting - we know that men are and have been continually taught the values shown and addressed by this speaker
https://forums.babypips.com/t/project-84-wins-7-awards-12-men-kill-themselves-today-in-uk/152491/42
His whole point is that men just do not know how to “look out for one another and try to be better at supporting one another” - Why not ?
Because they have been socialised by their fathers / step-fathers And their mothers to see women and girls as “weak and vulnerable” and boys and men as “strong and protecting”
If you look at your statement there, I am sure you will see an underlying element of “Blaming the victim”.
In the world we actually live in nowadays, The mother’s are statistically the “main carers” of boys and one of the main things we could do in this respect is to educate women in how to socialise their sons, to feel the same sense of entitlement and power over their own destinies as they do with their daughters. Teaching women to talk to their sons about feelings and showing that it is OK for boys to cry - would be a big help.
None of this will help those of us who are adult males, except that if the process is open and honest, we may be able to “Learn passively” and improve our own emotional responses ?
I think that there are causes of women’s suicide and there are causes of men’s suicide. There may be an element of overlap.
However, there are a lot of issues which are uniquely male and a lot which are Overwhelmingly male as the lady points out in her
TED Talk - “MEETING THE ENEMY”
Ignoring these unique stressors by apparently making it a co-operative gender issue, is one of the tactics which dilutes the very real issues, with the implication that “once the common isssues have been solved, we can come back and look at the male ones”. Which of course would never happen.
One of the things Cassie Jaye says in that talk is that there are women’s groups and there are men’s groups - each of which has issues they wish to raise. There is nothing wrong with that - but when one side is consistently denied a voice - Then there IS something wrong !
What can we do about Britain’s male suicide crisis ?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff in that article
Very interesting. A bit off-topic, but if you’ve seen The Bodyguard, this situation describes him. Someone who thinks he should be tough enough to deal with his emotional issues caused by his past. He’s also going through divorce. Lots of factors come in that can make it very isolating.
Both genders have their own issues and I hope soon, more people will be comfortable to discuss and acknowledge them.
Tomorrow (11th November) being Remembrance Day,
Perhaps we could take six and a half minutes to see some of the results of the conditioning which men have undergone as children to see themselves as some how “disposable”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxkhBvO8_kM
TEN MILLION “soldiers” were killed during those few horrendous years - Lions led by Donkeys !
Men and boys of great heart, faithful and zealous “Protectors”.(Rescuers)
Do not forget either the millions of women destined to live their lives as spinsters without children (Victims) because of the imbalance that caused.
I don’t know why I didn’t know this !
I cannot for one minute understand that I was completely unaware of some of the disclosures made in this video. Disclosures which completely re-frame some of the discussions I see on this thread and a huge “Feminist thread” on this site !
In fact, I believe that if this set of facts was publicised in even a tiny way, I WOULD have known about it !
I think it is worthy of consideration also in the context of this thread, and in the way men, especially young men feel about themselves !
It SHOULD be educational to “Feminists” in the same way it seems to have completely confounded the other participants of the discussion here !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjvzH24Mwo
Apparently this Guy is viewed by many people as a net positive for men and indeed women and their thought patterns.
Now think about our current vilification of any physical conflict between children or adults and lets see how this could deprive males of a successful childhood ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyKGv7zjMs8
by making their natural innate behaviour somehow “Wrong” - 
I would like to ask @ria_rose, whether boys fight iin school in the Phillipines, or whether they too have been feminised ?
Here we go again with a few words on the topic of "masculine toxicity!
His last piece of advice is particularly striking.
That video was super interesting @Falstaff. 
I did not really appreciate the interviewer’s hostility towards the interviewee though. 
I feel like we could have squeezed out more information if she wasn’t always trying to pounce back. There’s a difference between demanding respect and just wanting to attack.
But to answer your question Hmmm. I still hear stories of boys fighting in schools here. But not as much as they used to back when I was still studying. Haha. 
I thought it was an improvement on their behavior. But listening to Peterson say that children would then find other means to hurt other people, I also realized the really lasting impact of gossips and harsh words towards others.
Yes I thought about the “gun Crimes” in America and New Zealand - and so called “Knife Crime” in the uk when I heard that - Peterson himselff said
I’ve got a better version if the interview he did in SWEDEN with the “Egalitarian” Woman and swapped it in at post 49 - did you watchh that one?
Here’s another apparent consequence I might suggest of the “finding other outlets” we are perhaps looking at here
This vid has nearly 15 million views and goes a long way towards being very helpful for unhappy young men - many of whom he says “Have never heard a single word of encouragement”
It also helps to put the “Gender equality” issue in a realistic perspective.
This lady has only two million views - But she has a LOT of sense and I think encapsulates, certainly some of the thoughts and feelings I have been having !
Finger on the pulse here !
