LOL! The things a dad needs to worry about. LOL.
No sorry HOG my kids are all boys so I dont have to worry about that to much. Probably one of the better things about haveing boys. As we all get to enjoy the eye candy. Sure hope miss bobmaninc dont read this or I will never get to go to the beach again.
Did I read right we have a chess player in our pub?
C2C4. 
No, I probably have not much time and I am the worst chess player in the universe.
Get yourself a decent pair of wrap around sunglasses Bobmaninc, I hear they’re great for watching the ladies on the beach. Obviously I wouldn’t know about that personally, I’m just saying that’s what I have heard.
And it goes without saying that if Mrs Bobmaninc WAS to read this I’m not advocating you doing that for a second, I’m just making the point that if some-one (not you obviously) but if some-one we didn’t know, DID want to watch the ladies on the beach without Mrs Bobma…, I mean, their wife, knowing about it, then I’ve heard a decent pair of wrap around sunglasses are in fact the guys for the job. 
So, moving on swiftly, trading week starting soon, so heading over to the charts, talk later !!
Take your pick RC. Let me know which ones you’d like to wear to the Rugby and I’ll do my best to get them to you LOL!!
I feel quite sure any of these would go down a storm in the pub after the rugby match with the lads no ???
It surprises me that no-one has remarked on the wonderful strides pictured above. ( :o ) I could even see myself wearing them to the golf !! 
What ? What do you mean you thought they WERE golf trousers?
They are a good fit for my charts HoG, lol.
Few things are as crazy as your charts Bucks
I have to confess, HoG, that I had thought those were scarves. Those are trousers?!? Cripes. My father-in-law is a golf pro, as I think I have mentioned, and one other fact about him is that he is also (genuinely) colour blind. I think I now know why.
ST
HoG, that was not boring in the least, always nice to have some insight into those one is dealing with, and I guess we are about as close to colleagues on this site as most retail traders get!
Snowboarding? I think I have stuff like that in my future, with three boys. Trouble is, with Mrs Templar having hurt her back a few years back it falls to me to be the ‘resonsible adult’ for the extreme stuff. Okay at the moment, but once the kids are bigger than me… gulp…
Hilarious mention of the milkman - Mrs Templar is a blue-eyed blonde, as are all three of my boys, while I have dark hair and eyes. The milkman gag gets the odd outing here, too!
Totally get what you are saying about living somewhere that suits your kids. We have five bedrooms here, at a premium over a four bed, purely because we have three kids and needed to be in the school catchment. It’s a Georgian stone house, so there aren’t many in the catchment for the school in Bakewell. But if we had elected to save the extra and move out of catchment, the kids would have gone to the bigger school in Chesterfield with the less good lifestyle/reputation. We live very rurally (the Land Rover is not a style statement lol) but the kids definitely cost us an extra chunk on the house price with that one!
Completely with you on time with the kids being the best hobby. Our youngest is napping right now (he’s only two, but I’m jealous!) and I’m looking forward to getting him up in - gosh, two minutes!.
ST
Hmm, just a serious word about it.
I do things my way and that brought me outstanding success in every project I did in my life. Frankly, I can understand why some traders speak like regarding a holy grail about their naked charts. However, if you look what those people [U]do[/U], I think their naked charts are just one piece in the puzzle. They look at several different naked charts, a lot of other indicators in their web browsers, etc. etc. If you would combine all this info in just one screen, then it would look like my spaghetti bowl. I just do not need to switch often and do click here and click there. I have all in one screen. For me it is an advantage. Then I also guess some are maybe a bit jealous about my computer skills. I can do change all indicators to my needs and code some of myself and I do it. I put my work into something where I then after doing the job I just can avoid the day by day routine clicks. Plus I do not need information from experts or gurus or indices in the web, because I have all the info in my screen. Even now commodity price relations etc. in just one screen.
It’s like if you had to read 10 newspapers all “naked” to conclude your opinion or if you would have all newspapers in one newspaper personalized. Sure, it says not much to people who can’t understand how I work or think, but to me those charts are like an open book to the markets. I can see things, most can’t, because they would have to work 10 days in a row to get the information for a single trading day structure, what I may have with one simple glance over my chart.
I’m not saying this is the holy grail, but for me it is just the way to go. I have my bots for making money with day trading and I have my charts to develop an opinion about market structure for maybe a little swing trading plus to find other opportunities. If others like my charts or not is their free choice, but it doesn’t change my opinion a pip regarding my choices. That’s btw. one very thing what makes somebody successful: To be special and not a copycat. I mean, it’s not a warranty of itself, but it’s a way better chance for success than to be a copycat.
That being said I know what I am doing and I can deliver answers to questions most answer with paraphrasing the maked nonsense news why price did this or that. Those guys who read newspapers and build their opinion just on that will never understand how markets work and why price did this or that. If I see price reacts on a pp or a ma or why it drops regarding a regression without any click but looking at my chart, I know why price must do it with high probability, because I can see it straight on my screen.
Naked chart traders (those who have no other information from outside the naked charts) would miserably fail in the long run, imho. Even Mr. Seiden takes other information into consideration, he just won’t tell it in any basic webinar, because that is not there to give you all the details of his trading style. Plus he looks at wicks, at value, market sentiment, etc. as well. What he needs to do manually or where he has the experience of calculating this stuff in a matter of seconds out of his floor experience, I can and will continue to do it with my computer. That’s all what computers are there for. I do not want to work for my computer, but my computer has to work for me! Most people work for their computers. I don’t know how many billion clicks a trader without computer experience will do in his life, but I am definitely on the path to reduce my clicks to an absolute minimum! If I start my day and wish to know what’s going on in the markets I just have to switch on my laptop and I see all the stuff I need with just one click: Starting my metatrader.
I’m probably not the best person to have that discussion with Buckscoder. As you know my friend, I don’t have enough trading experience, and I certainly don’t have even what you might describe as “a good grasp of computers”. But my 2 cents worth goes something like this.
As far as I can make out, each and every person has to find the method that works for THEM. I won’t say that you are “lucky” enough to have the knowledge you do, because you have obviously put the work in to learn that stuff, so “luck” has nothing to do with it.
And maybe you are right, if some other people knew what you knew, or could do what you can do computer wise, maybe they would also use charts that looked as busy as yours.
You know my level from the BD thread, so just now “naked” charts is all I know, but who’s to say what I will use say maybe a year or two from now if, with the grace of god, I am still doing this and learned more.
I think you will always have the argument with some people swearing by this method and some people swearing by that method. But to be totally crass about it, the bottom line is money !
I know there are probably loads of people on Babypips or similar sites, who are claiming all sorts of success, which just aren’t true. but until the day somebody actually provides a live link to their bank account details, which proves they’ve made and still have 10 million bucks through their method, (which we all know will never happen, not the 10 million bucks part, the live link I mean) the argument will rage on for ever I guess.
For me personally, I am not in this to find a better method than you, ST, RC, Niki , yunny or anybody for that matter. I am in this, again to be a bit vulgar about it, pure and simply to make money for me and my family. And if that means that by the time I have learned more, and decided to use more indicators, and my chart starts to look like yours, AND I’m making money from it, well that will be just fine with me.
I doubt if I will ever reach your computer skills though, that’s just not me I’m afraid. But as long as I do find a method that works for me, I will settle for that.
And just on a personal note, when I look at your charts, it ISN’T all the lines and numbers and colours on it that impresses me, I tend to think of the knowledge you must have gained over time to create, read and effectivly use that chart, and it is THAT, which impresses me.
As I said, maybe not the best person to get involved in that whole discussion, but those are my thoughts on your “spaghetti bowl” anyway.
Cheers Buckscoder
HoG
Hello HoG,
well I like your opinion on that topic and I couldn’t agree more. No reason why you wouldn’t be able to discuss it, imho. However, there is nothing impressive with my charts. I know how to read em, because I for myself clicked or coded them together and beside as I stated already it’s not my main system. My main system are my bots. That is what makes money for me. The charts are more for analysis. To grasp more knowledge about price behavior etc. That is also the “birth station” for my bots. Because I can not create a bot just out of nowhere. I need to get new ideas how a strategy could give me an edge. I am not a simple trader. I am a system creator as well. I create my own systems. I even create my own indicators, just that them don’t show visual signals to me, but directly file the trades. Systems which are very new and individual. That’s why I have faith it will work consistently over decades. I do not fear that others may decrease performance, because nobody knows how my systems work.
I trust my own eyes more than anything what I read. Not because people are bad, but people have the tendency to believe instead to know. Who really invents his own system? Most follow. That is how common myths take their way into traders mindsets. If I just take the bottom line on what is suggested in those forums often, is that naked charts are the key to successful trading, I am not so sure it is the truth. It all goes with how to find key levels or s/r, but that is not an easy deal. It needs other information as well to have an idea what level or s/r holds and give probabilities for a bounce and which are weaker and let the price coming through. And this is in no way a specific topic just for s/r trading. In all trading strategies it is mandatory to find levels of a better probability. I try to read between the lines and as I said anywhere else I too look for s/r levels and those webinars from Mr. Seiden are imho really great stuff. However, if you listen to him carefully, you can grasp what others might simply not get: He says that money flows from the guys without the knowledge and information to the guys who know and are informed. So, that states very clearly that the issue with losing accounts is not too much information, but too less. You can also see sometimes that he uses bbs and stochs to recognize a trend. Because without trend recognition it is hard to see where price would bounce or shooting through a s/r level. Some people then come and tell you just need the price and that’s it. I guess that’s very foolish to believe it. I also know from my work in the bank that they don’t have naked charts. They have a lot of monitors and screens there in their hidden chamber. I can assure you, not one with a naked chart. 
Now, some traders would probably come now with the pseudo argument, that all indis are lagging etc. and price is the only holy grail. But this is foolish. Even price is lagging! There is nothing anywhere what gives you a leading signal. We can just analyse the past, make up our mind for a high probability trade and then let it run. At the end what counts is statistics and statistics only. That’s why tests are so very important. That’s also why people can even have success for say a year or two, but in the end miserably fail, because they had just a strategy for a couple of months and nothing what was really consistent for say decades. Almost all traders stories, even those of successful traders who made millions, come with some periods (mostly in the beginning) where they lost all of their winnings after some years. I simply guess that those short time strats are responsible for that.
Okay, regarding computer skills, that is just what I did my whole life. If you have to do with computers for 30+ years, there is not much left what you can learn about the principles. I don’t know every detail, but I know everything what is needed to have a pretty good picture about it. Sure, new technologies are invented all the time, but the principles stay the same. Even modern processors work like the first processor invented 80 years or so ago. Them just have more memory, are faster, smaller, cheaper, etc. Frankly, I couldn’t imagine to sit in front of a computer as trader and hack in all my trades by hand all the time. I still have to observe my bots, but them know all the prices and everything about my strats.
However, if somebody wants to learn it, it doesn’t need 30 years. It probably needs 2 til 3 years to grasp the major concepts and for sure it needs a burning desire to learn it. It’s like with trading. Just a burning desire to learn more about markets and 2 til 3 years is enough imho to grasp the main concepts what you need. After that all is experience what stacks on top of that.
It matters not how the cat looks like, as long as it catches mice. ( a tad bit twisted to suit the occasion but it still applies )
Nikita, I know what you mean and I think about the same regarding making money. In general however I try more to look behind the curtains. I am not only interested in making money. I also do have a desire to find out why things work like they do. I learned business economics and I am interested how markets work in general and how some opportunities can be revealed. So, what is the reason that there is an edge? In this case not for the sake of the money, but for the sake of my knowledge. I also do like to control my trading like contolling a company. When I studied, we had a project where we all had companies and tried to optimize the cash flow and everything. So that is what I do now with my bots. I see them like small companies, who generate money.
It’s for me like the IT business. You have a lot of people working in this business and they earn money, but only a few really know what they are doing beyond transferral knowledge. I was a teacher, so I know that there are three stages of learning. At first you have the transfer stage, where you just tell students the rules. After that in the next stage you can explain the why and how of the rules. But this takes a lot of time and more efforts. The last stage then is to experiment with students and work with them to bring it to a stage where they are able to create their own rules.
So it is in trading imho. You have a lot of followers. You have only a few who understand really why it works. Those are imho the ppl who make money long term consistently. And on the top you have some guys who really know so much that they can play with trading like they would be market wizards. That’s what I wanna become: A market wizard.
If it comes to me I was until maybe 6 months somebody who knew a lot without knowing it, lol. If you know what I mean. The more books I study, the more I trade, the more I experiment, the more I get the knowledge that I knew already a lot what was helpful and made it possible to develop some successful bots. However, I am still far away from stage 3. I need more experience. How do I know that my system will still work in 10 years? I get more confidence as I see it works and why, but in the end only time will tell if I am right. Plus every day brings new ideas and new input. And frankly that is what I like. Not just making money. While making money is the primary goal.
Anyways, I have learned a lot from those Seiden webinars. ~ 35 or so hours, but definitely an eye opener. Now I know why price bounces here or there or not and I can use it in my trades. Even if I do not a 100% trade on supply/demand levels, I can see those levels with a glance and try to avoid to buy at a supply zone or vice versa. Supply / demand trading is imho all related to triangles. Those triangles show the patterns where key resistance or support lies. It starts with a wide spread at the beginning of a triangle and then decreases in spread until the apex, where the price breaks out, because either buyers or sellers exceed the other party. At all the other bounces off the triangle the stack of buy or sell orders just got decreased, but some are still left. Until it breaks out at the apex. Or a little sooner.
Or possibly, “It doesn’t matter if there is more than one way to skin a cat, as long as the cat ends up naked, who cares?” :18:
Hm, isn’t that what Ferraris are constructed for? lol!
Frankly, I’d never buy a Ferrari, even if I would be a billionaire. This thing is more uncomfortable like a seat on a horse, lol.
If one of them was showing off I wonder how he is feeling about now? And don’t these top end cars have black boxes that record speed, revs etc - wonder if his insurance company will want a look at that, as it appears that one driver might have to claim for all the cars…!
I’ll tell you all a quick wee story since we are in the pub after all.
One saturday I picked up two men and two women in the taxi. One of the men said to me that the plan was to go a couple of streets down the road to where his car was parked, and him and his wife would get out and into his car, then I had to follow him with the two remaining in my taxi, out of Glasgow some 10 miles to his house.
Sure as god we get to his car and it was a big red ferrari. So he repeats, “Just follow me driver.” To which I reply, “No problem, but just remember it’s not a f***ing ferrari I’m driving!” (I’ve got such a poetic way with words on a Saturday night LOL )
Anyway, we get out of town, hit the motorway, and sure enough he takes off like a bat out of hell. Luckily his mate has a rough idea where we are going so guides me. But when we take the off ramp of the motorway we came to a very large roundabout, and sure enough, the red baron is sitting there waiting for us.
So this is where he decides to show off. He jams his foot down on the accellerator pedal, (obviously with the intention of speeding off and impressing absolutely no-one) but because all of the power comes from the rear of one of those monsters, he ends up losing the back end on the roundabout, his car completely spins around, now facing the wrong way on the road, and I end up almost running into the FRONT of the big red Ferrari.
Now, the point of telling that story, in light of the Japan crash, is this. I have never drove a car that powerful. And I reckon we all, at some point, have dreamt of driving the Ferrari, the Lambo, the Aston. However, I don’t think, and again I’m only guessing cos I’ve never done it, but I don’t think you just jump in a machine like that and drive it the same way you drive your average Honda Accord.
I reckon you need to respect the power of those things, you need to have a bit more control. Otherwise you just end up looking like a total arse facing the wrong way on a roundabout. Or even worse, you end up looking like an even bigger total arse on GLOBAL news bulletins as the guy who destroyed not only your own supercar, because you didn’t have a fu***ng clue what you were doing, but you managed to destroy a dozen OTHER supercars because you didn’t have a fu***ng clue what you were doing.
And just for the record, any car that can’t take at least two sets of golf clubs should never have the handle “supercar” imho in the first place !
Another true story: Once pulled up at traffic lights in the belting rain next to a guy driving a Ferrari. He had his golf clubs in the front passenger footwell. Just didn’t look right at all.
Mind you, didn’t look nearly as bad as his poor wife who was strapped to the roof-rack, poor woman was soaked to the skin LOL!!
(only joking about that part obviously)