UBI will it work

UBI or Universal Basic Income or Negative Income Tax, whatever name you call it, it is an idea that time might be here, Please watch the short video, and let’s start a conversation both pro and con

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Good idea !

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This is a well-meaning idea on paper but how effective it would be on ground level is anyone’s guess. Here are my thoughts with respect to it.

1.This video does not factor in inflation. If everyone starts making a minimum of $10,000, it would affect the price of all commodities proportionately and pretty soon $10,000 would not be adequate to make ends meet.

  1. Many people will become completely dependent on it and in an exigency where the government is not in a position to provide UBI, people will be clueless on how to earn a living.

  2. Finally, and this is my assumption that since this UBI is going to be provided from the federal reserve it will probably affect the overall development of the nation as it would siphon the reserves meant for other purposes such as infrastructure, health, education etc.

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There’s some support for this idea at this time as a response to the covid pandemic and the economic damage resulting. Hard to argue against it as a temporary measure.

But the things that need to be done to protect your house while its on fire are not the way you generally want to live.

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Yes Please !

I’ll have some of that ! I;m sure we can find a way of Gaming that system !

So the rich pay way less than they do now ? - And the very poor pay more - (Regressive tax)

I get $10,000 without getting out of bed :smile:

How much do we get if I have a wife and 2 kids ? - $10k, 20k or 40K ?

How do you get the money to homeless people ?

Assuming I’m a single mother with 2 kids - living on a mix of welfare and Alimony - How much do I get now ? (I assume that in the US as in UK - Child support and alimony are NOT taxable )

Is the tax allowance transferrable between husband and wife ? - so if only one of teem works does the other get 10 k for sitting at home ? - Hpw would that work if you were just a co-habiting couple ?

How does it affect my ex-husbands income - does he still have to pay me the same amount and does the tax-deduct at 25% still apply to him ?

Jeez if I can’t find a way of gaming that system - I haven’t been born yet !

Like I say - Yes please ! - :wink:

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Good questions, here are a few answers based on my understanding of the system

Rich would pay more as “All” income would be taxed, Mark Zuckerberg and his $1 a year salary would no longer be a way to avoid taxes

I am sure some will stay in bed but I know in the US like half the people on Social Security and under 70 years of age still work, the key is making it “Basic Income” and not a living wage

Everyone 18 and over would get a check, no extra for minor childern, that will be our means of population control :wink:

The single mother would get the 10K and still receive Alimony, the UBI is intended to eliminate the need for welfare,

both get a check

with that check coming every month they will have no excuse for being homeless,

I like the idea of a UBI for some different reasons… It will give citizens the opportunity to follow their passions. For example someone wants to be an artist, a writer, a programmer, a farmer, others may want to save wildlife, travel… even God forbid trade Markets full time …

Currently you complete High School and head off to college or Uni… you have to pay rent, food, transport etc… so part time or casual employment is required… Higher learning will always incur student loans… All this before you even taxi onto the runway…

Anything these days can be studied and learned from YouTube, Social Media, Udemy and many other online platforms for a fraction of the cost of a college degree… This avenue may not get you a corporate job within the corporate world… But you will be able to Study and develop what really Interests you… and apply it to real world effect… Start a farm, become a musician, artist, coder, build a house, travel etc… all of which could develop into enterprises, employment, contentment…

I agree with Dennis’s sentiment that some will just stay in bed… Many do now, with no aspirations or ability to do something that is important to them… Drugs, Drink will still be serious issues.

With a reasonable UBI in place, 2, 3, 4 people can get together with similar aspirations and develop their passions for art, music, health, trading… you would be able to concentrate on what you really want to do.

This would also help with decentralising people away from cities, currently congested because of limited employment requirements outside of metropolis’s… All hopefully leading to happier, healthier and prosperous populations… a true Utopian Dystopia…

I could extend on this quite a bit more, unfortunately I am currently limited for time…

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As you may have guessed by now I am Pro UBI ( if done correctly)

Some other benefits of UBI, (not everyone would simply stay in bed)

New Mothers would not be pressured to return to the work place

We could return to the days of at least one parent staying home with the kids full time

Stay home to take care of an elderly parent and not need to send them to a nursing home

Parents with special needs children could stay home with their kids

Home Schooling would become an option form more families

The Homeless could get an apartment and even if they stayed in bed at least they are off the street

please feel free to add to this list

The benefits of both parents being present for their children is going to be a thousandfold. For that benefit alone, I’m for it.

Those who hate their jobs can also finally do something they actually like and possibly contribute more to society.

I think there’s a general idea that people will be more lazy once they have everything they need and I think to some extent there will be people like that (but they already exist even without UBI) but I’d like to think there will be more who will have more resources to be more productive and have fulfilling lives.

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Even in the board game Monopoly you had an UBI , that $200 you got for passing go,

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Jobs are how people contribute to society. The best way to encourage productivity is to tie compensation to performance.

I totally agree with you, but that would require cancellation of all union contracts, unions hate performance based compensation, they want everyone treated and paid equally

I believe that any tax on our labor is slavery. There was no income tax prior to 1913. How was the country being run then? Each country should figure out a way to generate revenue without taxing its citizens.

Citizens may, at their discretion donate funds to proposed projects. These projects may be at a local, state or national level. However, donations must be made willingly and not forced upon anyone. I would go so far as to state that these donations should be made anonymously to avoid falling into the lobbying trap.

Or, let the citizens come up with strategies for income generation. We are very creative beings and I’m sure we can all figure out ways to make our government work as well as to provide for those who might be unable to work for any reason.

Just my 2 cents. I don’t have all the answers. Perhaps we need to look at abolishing our monetary system altogether and come up with a new paradigm altogether.

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Those are all valid points and our central government here in the US seems to be creating a death spiral for its self. I look at our government like a rocket ship without enough fuel to get into orbit, it may in the short term seem like it can keep going up forever but it will at some point come crashing down to earth and we may have to endure that crash before we see real reform and a functional UBI

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This is exactly what will happen.

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@peterma quoted an article away back on another thread - which may help us bumpstart this topic

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Here is an examination of some of the practicalities - from a bright guy you have never heard of - From the point of view of the Rational male ;

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That Finland experiment was just that an experiment, we need to see a full economy adopt it to really see if it works, Also I am guessing Finland already has a rather low number of people living in poverty. The big benefit of a UBI is it eliminate poverty, In the US where a large portion of the population is trapped in the welfare system, UBI would give them away out.

I see UBI as a bridge that takes us from the Sevices Economy to an Automated Economy where many job categories will be eliminated in the next 20 years

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That’s true Dennis :sunglasses:

1 Guy ends up with ALL the money and all the others are Homeless !

We had a series called Brass - where Bradley Hardacre - the “White male capitalist” - explained that even when he was in the Orphanage as a child, he hoarded his daily slice of bread and lent it out to others to consume. :sunglasses:

They had to pay him back a half a slice a day for 3 days ! :wink:

So even on that very basic UBI - the 'r’s will end up in debt to the psychopaths :rofl:

AND 5% of the population are psychopaths !

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The US tried a form of UBI - well 4 States did - was known as Negative Income Tax - late 1960’s .

Then Pres Nixon had a think about - well he figured that the idea was popular so he came up with a Federal Plan - he called it the “Family Assistance Plan” - but it ran into opposition.

Page 1 gives a 2 paragraph synopsis of the thinking behind the President’s plan.

No Western country save the Finnish experiment has attempted similar since that I know of.

dp5769.pdf (wisc.edu)

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